ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Jeff: Puncher: The major problem was/is that they seem to think that their market is the Bugati Veyron crowd whereas it used to be the professional/middlemanager with an eye for style. It shouldn't be a surprise to any long term fan of the brand! Excellent point, seems to me the way to keep in business in a world where audio systems and such are becoming less important is not to try and focus on a narrow group of ultra rich people who probably don't get into music systems as much as a "lower class" person might. The Play line, too, focusing on the middle market screwed the pooch by displaying a dismaying set of reliability and networking failures.
Puncher: The major problem was/is that they seem to think that their market is the Bugati Veyron crowd whereas it used to be the professional/middlemanager with an eye for style. It shouldn't be a surprise to any long term fan of the brand!
The major problem was/is that they seem to think that their market is the Bugati Veyron crowd whereas it used to be the professional/middlemanager with an eye for style. It shouldn't be a surprise to any long term fan of the brand!
Excellent point, seems to me the way to keep in business in a world where audio systems and such are becoming less important is not to try and focus on a narrow group of ultra rich people who probably don't get into music systems as much as a "lower class" person might. The Play line, too, focusing on the middle market screwed the pooch by displaying a dismaying set of reliability and networking failures.
I have to disagree with this, unless your point is that B and was designed for professionals in the 1900s and switched the Veyron crowd for the 2000s. If we are looking at the last 15 years, the prices don't seem to support a change from professionals to Veyron crowd,
15 years ago I purchased an Avant at a prices of $8,500. Within the last couple of years a I purchased a Beoplay V1. Same screen size. Many more features such as Spotify and user updatable puc table, and it cost around $3,000. So after 15 years I was able to get the new TV for 1/3 the price of the old one.
Today, I could purchase a Beovision 11-40 with a motorized stand for around $7,500. So again, 15 years later, a bigger TV with more features, and $1,000 less expensive.
Similiarly a Beovision 11-55 or 55 inch Avant is much cheaper than the price was for a Beovision 7-55 with a Beolab 7-4 or other speaker.
When I purchased my Beosund 2000/Century I paid $1,750. Today I can get an A6 for around $1,000
When I purchased my Beosound 3000 I paid $2,300. Today I can get an Essence for less than half of that or a Moment with many more features for about $1,000 more.
When I purchased my Beolab 1s, the retail price was $7,000. Today I can get a pair of Beolab 18s for a bit under $8,000
The price of Beolab 6000s was in the $3,000-$3,600 range if I remember correctly. About the same as a pair of Beolab 12s now.
So it seems to me TVs and audio systems are less expensive now than they were 15 years ago. Speakers are comparable in price but the newest ones have the added benefit of wisa.
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
Razlaw: Jeff: Puncher: The major problem was/is that they seem to think that their market is the Bugati Veyron crowd whereas it used to be the professional/middlemanager with an eye for style. It shouldn't be a surprise to any long term fan of the brand! Excellent point, seems to me the way to keep in business in a world where audio systems and such are becoming less important is not to try and focus on a narrow group of ultra rich people who probably don't get into music systems as much as a "lower class" person might. The Play line, too, focusing on the middle market screwed the pooch by displaying a dismaying set of reliability and networking failures. I have to disagree with this, unless your point is that B and was designed for professionals in the 1900s and switched the Veyron crowd for the 2000s. If we are looking at the last 15 years, the prices don't seem to support a change from professionals to Veyron crowd, 15 years ago I purchased an Avant at a prices of $8,500. Within the last couple of years a I purchased a Beoplay V1. Same screen size. Many more features such as Spotify and user updatable puc table, and it cost around $3,000. So after 15 years I was able to get the new TV for 1/3 the price of the old one. Today, I could purchase a Beovision 11-40 with a motorized stand for around $7,500. So again, 15 years later, a bigger TV with more features, and $1,000 less expensive. Similiarly a Beovision 11-55 or 55 inch Avant is much cheaper than the price was for a Beovision 7-55 with a Beolab 7-4 or other speaker. When I purchased my Beosund 2000/Century I paid $1,750. Today I can get an A6 for around $1,000 When I purchased my Beosound 3000 I paid $2,300. Today I can get an Essence for less than half of that or a Moment with many more features for about $1,000 more. When I purchased my Beolab 1s, the retail price was $7,000. Today I can get a pair of Beolab 18s for a bit under $8,000 The price of Beolab 6000s was in the $3,000-$3,600 range if I remember correctly. About the same as a pair of Beolab 12s now. So it seems to me TVs and audio systems are less expensive now than they were 15 years ago. Speakers are comparable in price but the newest ones have the added benefit of wisa.
I think it may be relevant to see what has happened in the AV market outside B&O! and realise that the vision experience is bettered by products that cost 1/6 of the price- that was not the case 15 years ago.
355f: I think it may be relevant to see what has happened in the AV market outside B&O! and realise that the vision experience is bettered by products that cost 1/6 of the price- that was not the case 15 years ago.
This does not affect, what Razlaw was explaining:
The B&O products hasn't evolved into products for only 'the Veyron crowd'.
But a lot of the former buyers are now satisfied with other products - prefering to spend less money on A/V products and more on something else.
Buying into B&O has become a matter of choice, of preferences.
It is very important for B&O, that they are able to tell people, what they become for their money - compared to what they can buy (for less) elsewhere.
And besides, when you say '1/6 of the price' - which products 'in the A/V market outside B&O' are you comparing to the B&O products?
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Cooker: If operating costs are higher in Denmark, then that just means there is less meat on the bone for profit.
If operating costs are higher in Denmark, then that just means there is less meat on the bone for profit.
Sorry - which 'profit' are you talking about?
I wanted to post this earlier, but I couldn't verbalize it succinctly then, hopefully I can now.
The issue is that technology doesn't necessarily follow the relatively slow "timelines for progress" (and perceptive attitudes of buyers) in other similar hi end markets. Watches or fashion, for example.
Progress in haute horlogerie and fashion is happening, but the degree to which changes are adopted and applied at a baseline are nowhere near as quick as with technology (video, especially). Watch brands do introduce new models / new designs, but the "heart" of the movement don't undergo revelatory changes every year where all of the brands are trying to play catch up. And the changes and progress that is made, is often not something that can be broadly adopted quickly for a multitude of reasons (patents notwithstanding). Resonance with DeBethune, or URWERK's EMC for example.
Unfortunately, OLED displays, 4K, etc, technologies are considered "disposable" commodities now, cheaply made and produced in volume. The public EXPECTS something new. B&O will never be able to play the same game, and will have to appeal to those who value the core brand.
All that being said, I've often thought of B&O sticking to it's guns and NOT playing that game with video, release established well made items in the video markets (especially the brains, ie. beosystems, and maybe make them modular), and accept that they won't be making money on them. But focus on the audio markets more, which they apparently have been doing. Although the technology for audio is progressing, the public's ears aren't as tuned to progress as their eyes are.
Fine materials, fine design, customer service, and audio, I think that's where B&O's REAL future is. Just my thoughts from a person who does indeed own a Beovision, and is totally happy knowing that his BV11 is already obsolete. LOL
Long Live B&O!!!
(The fact that B&O is playing nice with other brands more easily (ie. internet updates with the PUC, and Connection Hub, the Beolab 14 concept, etc), goes a long way to adoption... hopefully B&O continues to integrate better as they have been.)
Millemissen: 355f: I think it may be relevant to see what has happened in the AV market outside B&O! and realise that the vision experience is bettered by products that cost 1/6 of the price- that was not the case 15 years ago. This does not affect, what Razlaw was explaining: The B&O products hasn't evolved into products for only 'the Veyron crowd'. But a lot of the former buyers are now satisfied with other products - prefering to spend less money on A/V products and more on something else. Buying into B&O has become a matter of choice, of preferences. It is very important for B&O, that they are able to tell people, what they become for their money - compared to what they can buy (for less) elsewhere. And besides, when you say '1/6 of the price' - which products 'in the A/V market outside B&O' are you comparing to the B&O products? MM
I am comparing products that technically and visually eclipse easily the B&O offerings presently
Many of the more 'well heeled' individuals in my block in London bought into B&O over the past Ten years, despite the recession, most of those have the same if not more wealth than previously and spend the same on AV, yet not one of them buys B&O anymore, so whilst 'It is very important for B&O, that they are able to tell people, what they become for their money - compared to what they can buy (for less) elsewhere.' the main customer base has been significantly eroded and have walked away.
From my own perspective, a B&O fan for many years- im looking to replace my BV4 65 and BS3 and will buy LG oled which is a technology and picture more to my liking than a Samsung LCD in the avant. for 1/3 of the price.
The flat screen revolution has meant that 'style' is so difficult to achieve and I and many of my associates would prefer the dare is say it- more streamlined look of mainstream rivals. Panasonic OLED TX65czoled vs any B&O tv anyone?
Sal:Unfortunately, OLED displays, 4K, etc, technologies are considered "disposable" commodities now, cheaply made and produced in volume. The public EXPECTS something new. B&O will never be able to play the same game, and will have to appeal to those who value the core brand.
Interesting, having returned from CES some some months ago, I would agree that there is a greater degree of built in obsolescence because the market now moves so quickly, one has to be careful though, using words 'cheap and disposable' as if B&O is superior, isn't B&O using the same cheap and disposable outdated Samsung LCD Panels?
Who are the people that value the core brand- I would suspect there would be many more if B&O were more leading edge and produced products worthy of the price
355f: I am comparing products that technically and visually eclipse easily the B&O offerings presently
Please have a look at this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjonux7c4m7jmpy/EN-BeoLink-handbook-v1-7.pdf?dl=0
and tell me, where you can find a company, that could eclipse or even match, what B&O offers.
However, if you are just looking for a big tv with 2015/16 specs and a soundbar, you would be silly to spend your money on a B&O product.
Millemissen: 355f: I am comparing products that technically and visually eclipse easily the B&O offerings presently Please have a look at this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjonux7c4m7jmpy/EN-BeoLink-handbook-v1-7.pdf?dl=0 and tell me, where you can find a company, that could eclipse or even match, what B&O offers. However, if you are just looking for a big tv with 2015/16 specs and a soundbar, you would be silly to spend your money on a B&O product. MM
No I am seeking the best visual experience.
Thank you fort the B&O guide it was indeed an interesting read, it is clear for an Ethernet enabled multi room system it is unique, and it is the purchaser who decidesif that capability overrides the somewhat standard performance of the stand alone products.
Many, myself included, don't seek a multi room system and are not just looking for a big TV, but are prepared to spend money on the best stand alone visual experience , an up to date smart tv platform with technology that allows for at least some future proofing and B&O is not in remotely in that league now- not with the products I have looked at anyway. over the years I bought into B&O in a significant way, may I ask, has one seen the panasonc OLED- I defy anyone to say that the avant is in the same league for picture quality
I agree to certain degree, the cheaper B&O products not being made in Denmark I can live with if that decision enables the company's high end stuff to be made in Denmark. When you are paying a premium for products, it is a bit more of a consolation that the product was made in country of origin.
Just look at nearly all second hand B&O (applies to Denmark MM) adds on your local gumtree/Craigslist etc and nearly all of them make a big deal about "Made In Denmark". Why state this if it is on no relevance? Because IT IS of relevance. I've seen older B&O products in an unworking quite sad state, still command higher then expected prices at local 2nd hand shops etc due to the "made in Denmark" association.
When people look at my B&O products and see the Product Of Denmark logo, it gets more oooos and aaaahs then the fact it's B&O as not everyone knows B&O is linked to Denmark.
It is a marketing tool and it does work. I remember a lot of chinese companies started putting on their products, not "made in China", but instead European Design etc things like that. This made the average joe think he was getting a higher end product just do to clever marketing. Also car companies that are not German are more and more using German cliches to attract customers, using the words "German inspired" or "German Engineered" etc etc Clever use of the word Germany, which makes the customer think of quality, detail etc all things that Germany is stereotyped about, but they leave out where the car is actually made, because this would not encourage sales.
B&O has started doing the same. Drawing on their rich history and "Product of Denmark" reputation to still get the sales, instead of actually making the products there. How many average people were aware back when it started all those years ago that their B&O was not made in Denmark? A minority. Some people even now still think it is made in Denmark. That's what 80+ years of reputation do.
Audi still make their higher end models in Germany. The least B&O can do is make their high end stuff still in Denmark.
355f: Millemissen: 355f: I am comparing products that technically and visually eclipse easily the B&O offerings presently Please have a look at this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjonux7c4m7jmpy/EN-BeoLink-handbook-v1-7.pdf?dl=0 and tell me, where you can find a company, that could eclipse or even match, what B&O offers. However, if you are just looking for a big tv with 2015/16 specs and a soundbar, you would be silly to spend your money on a B&O product. MM No I am seeking the best visual experience. Thank you fort the B&O guide it was indeed an interesting read, it is clear for an Ethernet enabled multi room system it is unique, and it is the purchaser who decidesif that capability overrides the somewhat standard performance of the stand alone products. Many, myself included, don't seek a multi room system and are not just looking for a big TV, but are prepared to spend money on the best stand alone visual experience , an up to date smart tv platform with technology that allows for at least some future proofing and B&O is not in remotely in that league now- not with the products I have looked at anyway. over the years I bought into B&O in a significant way, may I ask, has one seen the panasonc OLED- I defy anyone to say that the avant is in the same league for picture quality
As you are seeking , to use your exact words, "the best visual experience" and make no mention of sound, many other brands plastic TVs with minimal sound capabilities will be perfect for you.
For the complete package, picture and sound, B and O still excels, along with quality.
If one focuses on only one feature, it will always be possible to find something better.
It would be easy to find a car cheaper than a Mercedes, Bentley, or other luxury model, it would also be easy to find a car that is faster, a car with better fuel economy, a car that is easier to park, a car that has more cargo room, a car with lower maintenance costs, a car that seats more passengers, a car that handles better, a car that stops better, etc. But the for some people the complete package and build quality if more important than just one feature such as the picture experience.
Everybody is different, has different priorities, different desires, and different budgets. That is why there are so many different TVs just as with any other product.
The first two paragraphs of this review sum up very nicely why one may choose B and O over the typical plastic TV.
http://www.whathifi.com/bo/beovision-avant-55/review
moxxey: In regards to B&O, for at least 70% of people, where they manufacture their products won't influence people's purchasing decisions. The biggest issue is that most people do not have the cash to spend on B&O equipment and find it harder to justify, particularly since the 2008 global crash. There's just not enough people keen to spend £6000 on a TV or £4000 on a pair of speakers, however much we love the brand. The average customer doesn't worry too much about where BMW make their cars (most people just assume Germany), or where Armani produce their clothes (China, now, on the whole, and it's barely affected Armani), it's the cost and availability that's the issue for the majority.
In regards to B&O, for at least 70% of people, where they manufacture their products won't influence people's purchasing decisions. The biggest issue is that most people do not have the cash to spend on B&O equipment and find it harder to justify, particularly since the 2008 global crash. There's just not enough people keen to spend £6000 on a TV or £4000 on a pair of speakers, however much we love the brand.
The average customer doesn't worry too much about where BMW make their cars (most people just assume Germany), or where Armani produce their clothes (China, now, on the whole, and it's barely affected Armani), it's the cost and availability that's the issue for the majority.
But, as you can see, the 55" version starts at 2999,- Euro, so it's not 1/6 of the price. The predecessor was also tested on whathifi.com and they've attested him "
Razlaw: 355f: Millemissen: 355f: I am comparing products that technically and visually eclipse easily the B&O offerings presently Please have a look at this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjonux7c4m7jmpy/EN-BeoLink-handbook-v1-7.pdf?dl=0 and tell me, where you can find a company, that could eclipse or even match, what B&O offers. However, if you are just looking for a big tv with 2015/16 specs and a soundbar, you would be silly to spend your money on a B&O product. MM No I am seeking the best visual experience. Thank you fort the B&O guide it was indeed an interesting read, it is clear for an Ethernet enabled multi room system it is unique, and it is the purchaser who decidesif that capability overrides the somewhat standard performance of the stand alone products. Many, myself included, don't seek a multi room system and are not just looking for a big TV, but are prepared to spend money on the best stand alone visual experience , an up to date smart tv platform with technology that allows for at least some future proofing and B&O is not in remotely in that league now- not with the products I have looked at anyway. over the years I bought into B&O in a significant way, may I ask, has one seen the panasonc OLED- I defy anyone to say that the avant is in the same league for picture quality As you are seeking , to use your exact words, "the best visual experience" and make no mention of sound, many other brands plastic TVs with minimal sound capabilities will be perfect for you. For the complete package, picture and sound, B and O still excels, along with quality. If one focuses on only one feature, it will always be possible to find something better. It would be easy to find a car cheaper than a Mercedes, Bentley, or other luxury model, it would also be easy to find a car that is faster, a car with better fuel economy, a car that is easier to park, a car that has more cargo room, a car with lower maintenance costs, a car that seats more passengers, a car that handles better, a car that stops better, etc. But the for some people the complete package and build quality if more important than just one feature such as the picture experience. Everybody is different, has different priorities, different desires, and different budgets. That is why there are so many different TVs just as with any other product. The first two paragraphs of this review sum up very nicely why one may choose B and O over the typical plastic TV. http://www.whathifi.com/bo/beovision-avant-55/review
I agree that the sound is important tats why I bought into B&O in the first place. lets not forget though that high end sound bars ( this is effectively what the Avant offers) do a good job now of offering quality audio, in fact several I have tried better the avant for audio perfomance
Aussie Michael:Maybe we should all band together and buy the company ? Many of us have corporate, commercial, operations, product, finance, marketing experience with love for the continuation of the company.
I'm in, too.
Recently getting a Beovision 11....I can't understand how anyone can compare it to a Samsung or an LG. Yes the Beovision is expensive but it still draws more admirers that any Samsung out there. One cannot say that a Samsung TV is better looking than a Beovision, I really can't believe that. The build quality and design on my Beovision 11 is simply breathtaking. The sound is also really impressive from a very slim cabinet. Yes you can get a soundbar from Samsung but it will never integrate with the TV like the Beovision. When it comes to picture quality, I am not an expert but I am not in the least disappointed with the Beovision and I've yet to go to a friends house who's Samsung or LG delivers better.....but that might be subjective.
Not sure I understand the severe criticism, perhaps people are just wanting to protect the brand? Perhaps with everything on the increase people don't have the disposable income to buy a Beovision? Perhaps that is the thorn in the side? The prices haven't actually gone up its the disposable income that has decreased. If you want a TV framed in polished aluminium, polished aluminium remote with a screen and built in active speakers......you will have to fork out for it otherwise you have to go for a Samsung cased in plastic.
I think people are too obsessed with scrutinising each product to death and forgetting to enjoy the experience. I can sit and just look at my Beovision for 15min without it even being on! Looking closely at the beautiful aluminium frame..........its a work of art......any good work of art costs a lot of money. i appreciate the cost of the expertise needed to make that frame and to design the TV. If its only about how connections are at the back etc....then its not for you because that is not what its about.
BenSA: Recently getting a Beovision 11....I can't understand how anyone can compare it to a Samsung or an LG. Yes the Beovision is expensive but it still draws more admirers that any Samsung out there. One cannot say that a Samsung TV is better looking than a Beovision, I really can't believe that. The build quality and design on my Beovision 11 is simply breathtaking. The sound is also really impressive from a very slim cabinet. Yes you can get a soundbar from Samsung but it will never integrate with the TV like the Beovision. When it comes to picture quality, I am not an expert but I am not in the least disappointed with the Beovision and I've yet to go to a friends house who's Samsung or LG delivers better.....but that might be subjective. Not sure I understand the severe criticism, perhaps people are just wanting to protect the brand? Perhaps with everything on the increase people don't have the disposable income to buy a Beovision? Perhaps that is the thorn in the side? The prices haven't actually gone up its the disposable income that has decreased. If you want a TV framed in polished aluminium, polished aluminium remote with a screen and built in active speakers......you will have to fork out for it otherwise you have to go for a Samsung cased in plastic. I think people are too obsessed with scrutinising each product to death and forgetting to enjoy the experience. I can sit and just look at my Beovision for 15min without it even being on! Looking closely at the beautiful aluminium frame..........its a work of art......any good work of art costs a lot of money. i appreciate the cost of the expertise needed to make that frame and to design the TV. If its only about how connections are at the back etc....then its not for you because that is not what its about.
Wonderful post. I agree completely.
BenSA:I think people are too obsessed with scrutinising each product to death and forgetting to enjoy the experience. I can sit and just look at my Beovision for 15min without it even being on! Looking closely at the beautiful aluminium frame..........its a work of art......any good work of art costs a lot of money. i appreciate the cost of the expertise needed to make that frame and to design the TV. If its only about how connections are at the back etc....then its not for you because that is not what its about.
Bravo.
But you're speaking to people on a B&O forum, we are all fanatics who by our very nature of being here and engaging in these sorts of discussions are the type that are obsessed with scrutinizing the products to death! LOL :-)
Exactly my view as well.
Livingroom: BL3, BL11, BV11-46 Kitchen: Beosound 1 GVA, Beocom 2 Bathroom: M3 Homeoffice: M3, Beocom 2 Library: Beosound Emerge, Beocom 6000 Bedroom: M5, Essence remote Travel: Beoplay E8 2.0, Beoplay EQ, Beoplay Earset
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
355f: Millemissen: 355f: I am comparing products that technically and visually eclipse easily the B&O offerings presently Please have a look at this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjonux7c4m7jmpy/EN-BeoLink-handbook-v1-7.pdf?dl=0 and tell me, where you can find a company, that could eclipse or even match, what B&O offers. However, if you are just looking for a big tv with 2015/16 specs and a soundbar, you would be silly to spend your money on a B&O product. MM No I am seeking the best visual experience.
And what exactly do you mean by that?
I am seeking to change my BV4 65 and BS3 and have never liked LCD mainly because of viewing angles, consistency of panels, light bleed and the most important, motion.
ideally would like to stay with B&O but the Avant , whilst it is well packaged, with nice materials, I am interested in its performance for the £8000 I would part with. IMO the avant offers no better a picture than a Samsung that costs £1300, it also handles SD terribly badly, as most 4Kpanles do, never theless it was a worse experience with B&O.
Next we come to the 'smart TV platform- what is going on with the avant there, I have just purchased a 200quid sony 32 in for another room and the smart TV is superior in every way on that product. What about hdmi2, my understanding is that an update will be available also but the frame rate will suffer, I can use the PUC control for yet another third party box- doesn't seem a wise investment anymore?
Statements by panasonic and LG indicate that OLED with drop by 40% over the next 14 months, during this period the avant will probably have the same, if not higher price tag, with possible the same panel!
Then I look at the Panasonic OLED what a class looking product with a picture quality that is amazing for £1000 less than the avant- that's what I mean by a better visual experience
This thread is actually supposed to be about Bang & Olufsen being sold. Not much to say on this subject but expect change. I have no idea who the buyer might be but whoever it is they will have to pay about $500 million. About 12 percent of the share are held by Danish pension funds. It is my guess they probably want to invest elsewhere to get better returns on their investments.
I have been buying B&O products for almost 30 years and do feel a sense of unease about the sale of B&O. I guess we can discuss what company would be great for B&O but it is probably pointless. My own feeling is Harmon might be a good choice and would not change B&O too much. They already own the B&O automotive division.
linder: This thread is actually supposed to be about Bang & Olufsen being sold. Not much to say on this subject but expect change. I have no idea who the buyer might be but whoever it is they will have to pay about $500 million. About 12 percent of the share are held by Danish pension funds. It is my guess they probably want to invest elsewhere to get better returns on their investments. I have been buying B&O products for almost 30 years and do feel a sense of unease about the sale of B&O. I guess we can discuss what company would be great for B&O but it is probably pointless. My own feeling is Harmon might be a good choice and would not change B&O too much. They already own the B&O automotive division.
*Sigh* B&O will NOT be majority owned by another company. Not now and not in the nearer future.