ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Not providing Deezer in the Elite version is not something, that B&O has choosen..
They don't have the licence from Deezer to do so, even if they wanted.
Deezer probably made a special (and lucrative) deal with Sonos for the Elite version.
I suppose, that it will change over time.
N.B. Did you know, that you can easily 'join in' to that line-in/Sonos source from other NL-devices?
By the way - I would not call Deezer Premium 'low quality streaming' - low quality streaming is different!
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
I understand that Deezer Elite is not accesible without an agreement with Deezer.
But to my mind, B&O have all the time been into high quality music (and picture) so to support customer paying 10-20 times more than other brand, B&O needs to add this part as well. They could make a deal with Deezer or Spotify (I know the problem with multi user) or even Tidal (Swedish as I believe). Not making any offer to customers is bad.
I also understand Sonos is having many more customer than B&O, but the demand is stil there for us to B&O
These days people are moving from the world of CD's and LP's into streaming - and the majority do not care about quality.
Many B&O customer having speakers like Beolab 12 of Beolab 3 would not hear the different between Deezer Premium or Elite - I agree with you about that, but having Beolab 5 or Beolab 90 - you can hear the different immediately.
This bring us back to play from "old" CD's or from my network disk (having all my CD's in Flac) - is this taking care of high paying customers.
Making the Beolab 90 is fine and shows to me, that B&O care about sound quality - but what about the sources...This is the problem.
I will try the "join in" this weekend. Thanks for the idea
It is quite possible that deezer's agreement with Sonos gives them some sort of exclusive period. Or that deezer's pricing demands are beyond B&O.
Rudi Pedersen:Let me share a part of my new setup - in lack of B&O signing up to Deezer Elite (and having hi-fi quality streaming) I have now changed my setup. I had prefered B&O had valued their Beolab 5 and Beolab 90 customers better than low quality streaming
I had prefered B&O had valued their Beolab 5 and Beolab 90 customers better than low quality streaming
If you wanna get out the most of the Beolab 5 - use the SPDIF connection and not Powerlink / Line In
Search in the Forum, I described several times my setup
Rudi Pedersen: ....but having Beolab 5 or Beolab 90 - you can hear the different immediately.
....but having Beolab 5 or Beolab 90 - you can hear the different immediately.
This will still have to be proven!
I am pretty sure that the quality of the recording and mastering matters way more than the delievery format (Deezer premium vs Deezer Elite).
The DAC/audioprocessing done in different devices also has a huge influence on how well a 320 kpbs file may sound.
And that for the better or the worse!
Besides - we still know too little about how the files from the streaming services are processed, which equing-tricks they are using.
Would there be any differences between Premium and Elite, when it comes to that? We don't know!
A real and bulletproof test of these things will be hard to do.
Streaming is always my second option regarding sound quality (as Millemissen mentioned in his post).
If you run for example Audirvana on a Mac computer with enough memory you will hear the difference instantly!
carlito: Streaming is always my second option regarding sound quality (as Millemissen mentioned in his post). If you run for example Audirvana on a Mac computer with enough memory you will hear the difference instantly!
Yes - certainly you will (or some people will) hear the 'difference'.
But what is this 'difference'? How does it come about?
Difference....depends of many issues, I believe.
But, take some of your favourite tracks on CD's...listen to the CD, listen to the same CD from Deezer Premium and finally listen to the CD from Elite.
I have done that on several CD's - I can hear the difference - even though my ears now are 54 years old.
The dynamic and low frequencies (bass etc) is much better and comes close to the CD quality
We all listen to different music genres and value different aspect in the music, so this is probably not easy to judge - but technical the difference is huge (but yes, this is not always easy to hear - some people still loves LP's even though technical CD's in the right quality is better)
At the bottom line...not to start a deep technical discussion (we can as I am electronic engineer) - I still feel B&O needs to look into such an offering to customers - and B&O, if you read this - we will pay for it ! ;-)
The difference lossy, lossless are the lower frequencies and the dynamic. A lossy file sound more "flat".
My setup: MacMini with 16GB ram and Audirvana as sound engine. Mac USB -> DAC (Cambridge DACMagicPlus -> SPDIF out -> Beolab 5Streaming via AppleTV -> Toslink out - > DAC (see above)
I suggest to read about bit perfect and jittering and what the Audirvana engine is doing. The summery of this made a huge differnece with the Beolab 5.
Thanks for this input...I have already now downloaded the software and will look into this during the weekend.
Just need to buy the DAC - I have the rest
Have a nice weekend
Rudi Pedersen:and B&O, if you read this - we will pay for it ! ;-)
Rudi Pedersen: Just need to buy the DAC - I have the rest
Advice: Look for one with SPDIF OUT! and you will get in love with you lab 5 for a second time...
some examples
carlito: The difference lossy, lossless are the lower frequencies and the dynamic. A lossy file sound more "flat". My setup: MacMini with 16GB ram and Audirvana as sound engine. Mac USB -> DAC (Cambridge DACMagicPlus -> SPDIF out -> Beolab 5Streaming via AppleTV -> Toslink out - > DAC (see above) I suggest to read about bit perfect and jittering and what the Audirvana engine is doing. The summery of this made a huge differnece with the Beolab 5.
Hmmm - don't you trust the DAC of the BL5's?
carlito:If you wanna get out the most of the Beolab 5 - use the SPDIF connection and not Powerlink / Line In
I'm a bit confused about the talk of using an external DAC, whilst also advising to use the digital (SPDIF) input on the BL5...
carlito:Mac USB -> DAC (Cambridge DACMagicPlus -> SPDIF out
In this scenario you are not using the DAC in the Cambridge unit. Since you're using the digital output it's doing little more than interfacing USB data to SPDIF data.
carlito: Rudi Pedersen: Just need to buy the DAC - I have the rest Advice: Look for one with SPDIF OUT! and you will get in love with you lab 5 for a second time... some examples M2TECH hiFace 2 Halide Design S/PDIF Bridge
Neither of these devices even contain a DAC but that is fine as you don't want one
Here we agree, but doing so specifically means not needing or using a DAC as to do so would result in an analogue audio signal (which would need to be fed into the Powerlink or Line inputs of the BL5).
It's worth comparing the signal paths within the BL5:
Line or Powerlink input:
Input selector / buffer -> A/D Converter (ADC) -> Switch -> DSP -> D/A converter (DAC) & Low Pass filter -> Volume Control -> Amps -> Speakers
vs, SPDIF input:
Switch -> DSP -> D/A converter (DAC) & Low Pass filter -> Volume Control -> Amps -> Speakers
There *may* be a benefit from using an external ADC, if you had an analogue source to start with (and if you felt the ADC in the BL5 wasn't good enough), but it would never make sense to use an external DAC to convert an audio signal into an analogue one as the first thing the BL5 will do is convert it back to digital again. By feeding it a digital signal in the first place you bypass the input selection and ADC stages, and broadly speaking, less conversions are better.
Kind Regards,
Martin.
Hi Martin,
probably the DAC function of the DacMagic isn't the interesting part.
Far more it is the input selector function (since both USB from a MAC and optical out from the ATV was mentioned).
Whether the Volume Control of the DacMagic is working, when this is used a a bridge, I don't know (??? - I would assume not).
The 'bridge function' wanted probably is the reason why the Halide and the M2TECH are mentioned.
The DacMagic used as a bridge does not involve a DAC- 'function'/convertion.
On a sidenote - I am pretty comfortable with the ADC of the BL5. And I don't really understand, what makes people think, that it should not be well chosen from the guys, who made the BL5's.
Millemissen: probably the DAC function of the DacMagic isn't the interesting part. Far more it is the input selector function (since both USB from a MAC and optical out from the ATV was mentioned).
Hi MM,
Yes, I was being especially pedantic here especially given it is clear that carlito wasn't converting to analogue and sending the signal to one of the analogue inputs of the BL5, so in this instance it is more an issue of correct terminology, but there do seem to be many that advocate external DACs and ADCs and so on with the BL5 and I just don't see there is much if anything to be gained and have hopefully demonstrated this by showing the paths the signals take through the BL5 itself.
Millemissen:Whether the Volume Control of the DacMagic is working, when this is used a a bridge, I don't know
I'm not sure if this is the case either, but in general this would not be a good thing to do anyway - much better to use the BL5s own volume control functionality as this is performed on the resulting analogue signal, after the DSP and ADC stages within the BL5 (just before the signal hits the amplifiers).
Adjusting the volume of the digital signal means a reduction in the usable bit depth, for example, if you have a CD quality signal (16 bits, 44KHz) and reduce the level to 50%, you effectively end up with 15 useable bits. Reduce it to 25% and you effectively end up with 14 usable bits and so on... the lower the 'volume' the worse it gets.
Millemissen:On a sidenote - I am pretty comfortable with the ADC of the BL5. And I don't really understand, what makes people think, that it should not be well chosen from the guys, who made the BL5's.
Yep, me too. My emphasis of the word *may* was because I personally don't believe there is likely to be much to be gained here, but there will be those who swear a given model of external ADC makes it sound better and I have no way to prove this is not the case, I'm not convinced any differences here are likely to be audible although it is the one area where it might be technically possible to make some improvement. Like you, I have faith that the ADC in the BL5 would have been chosen appropriately to complement the overall quality of the product.
Kind regards,
Millemissen:N.B. Did you know, that you can easily 'join in' to that line-in/Sonos source from other NL-devices?
OMG you just helped me big time! :) I never came to this idea while I was looking how to add CD playback from Beocenter 8500 into NL.
As I was planning a pair of smaller speakers with it (it is in one hallway connected to a kitchen so no need for big ones) Beoplay A6 will be perfect to join music from the living room when I listen to streaming. And when I want to play my opera CDs on BC8500 I just join Beoplay A6s line-in sound.
YAY! Thanks!
AnalogPlanet: YAY! Thanks!
Glad to have helped you :-)
Ok, I understand you will not pay, but I am sure more than me are willing to pay, but anyway ;-)
So, gentlements !
What is the conclusion of all this ?
In one of my living rooms I have the Beolab 5 and the Essence as source (and now a Sonos box on the line input for Flac files).
Maybe it is possible to have this setup in parallels to a digital input. Will the Beolab 5 sense itself and select the source. If I keep the powerlink input and and a digital input from a MacMini (through a M2Tech box) - then I will have the possibility to use the Beolab 5 as a multiroom when I just play "background" music - and when I want to listen to high quality musik, I can use the digital input.
The Audirvana software - how do you remote control this from the Mac mini - well, I could use Remote Desktop, but this seems not to be the best solution.
(note, all my cables and connection are hidden in the wall and I have 2 room with racks for technic)
Thanks for your input
Rudi
short answer:
- If Powerlink is connected, the SPDIF input only works with a B&O CD-Player e.g. BS9000, BC2.
- Audirvana can be controlled by Remote from Apple or with the Audirvana App
Millemissen: Hi Martin, ..... And I don't really understand, what makes people think, that it should not be well chosen from the guys, who made the BL5's. MM
..... And I don't really understand, what makes people think, that it should not be well chosen from the guys, who made the BL5's.
I understand: Because it's sooo old ! There are better ADCs and DACs today which keep the industry going But won't have a real effect
Even a BeoLab90 can't use the _full_ range of a 24 Bit Digital Signal. And your ears can't stand it for a longer period.
Ralph-Marcus
RaMaBo: Even a BeoLab90 can't use the _full_ range of a 24 Bit Digital Signal. And your ears can't stand it for a longer period.
What do you mean by 'the _full_ range of a 24 Bit Digital Signal'?
What do you mean by '....can't stand it for a longer period'?
Millemissen: What do you mean by 'the _full_ range of a 24 Bit Digital Signal'?
The signal to noise ratio which is possible: 24 Bits / sample *6 gives 132 db ratio (from absolute quietness to maximum sound level. If a speaker can deliver this dynamic range
Millemissen: What do you mean by '....can't stand it for a longer period'? MM
Imagine you are standing in about one meter distance near one of the four full running engines of a Boeing 747. Would you like to get this sound pressure for a longer time, let's say about 40 - 60 minutes ( one CD )
What i mean is: One has to be realistic about what would be doable by the techniques and what still makes sense if you think about all the progress which is offered.
Just my 2 ct
Hi again
During Christmas I have been thinking about an idea based on your suggestions above. Please see attachment.
I need an good input selector that can take both digital and analouge signal and send out digital signal - and be controlled by an app for the iPad. Does anyone have experience in this segment ??
Using this setup, I can
1. Play my CD's in Flac format on the MacMini and send this direct to the BL5 digitally
2. Play from the Sonos Connect box in flac streaming from Deezer Elite
3. Play Multiroom music if the rest of the house is playing so.
On paper this looks like a nice setup, but is there a problem here ???
Best regards Rudi
The Samsung WAM270 LinkMate may be a solution :
BUT... here is your new problem : when you feed the BL5 with a digital signal (not coming from a B&O device), you need a remote (Beo4 or Essence knob) to turn them on "manually" before being able to hear anything...
First (but only once), you will need a Beo4 remote to change their mode (0 --> 1) and then also a remote (Beo4 or Essence knob) to set the sound volume during listening.
Or, may be (I don't really know how the BL5 will react), also plug the analog line-out of the LinkMate to the line-in of the BL5, and see if they turn on automatically (line sensing ?).
Anyway, needing several apps (and several remotes ?) may quickly be boring...
Hi
Sorry for the late reply. Thanks for the valuable input. This could work...as you say, this needs some app. but the Essence knop is in place today..I have only B&O products - see attached file..
I have been searching to find a switch - like the Samsung - but where the switch could auto sense the signal - in that case there would be no need for an app to control
BR Rudi
Rudi Pedersen:but the Essence knop is in place today..I have only B&O products - see attached file..
You can used the LinkMate as you draw, and keep the Essence and the Connect also.