ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I've just been comparing the specification of my 1970’s S45 speakers with the current range of passive speakers available at Richer Sounds. I am astonished that regardless of price there don't seem to be any current passive speakers that can get down anywhere near the lower 38Hz frequencies of the S45's.
Why don't B&O reproduce these particularly successful speakers and take the market from the current offerings of their competitors?
As I write the S45's are being driven by the tiny Class D amplifiers of the Olive One.... the combination is outstanding and I feel no desire to power-up an alternative Beomaster.
Graham
Because they decided to go all-in on active speakers a long time ago, and thus missed out on the biggest market which is still passive????
Probably because they found out, that a combination of a taylored amplifier, a DSP for the processing of the input and some suitable tranceivers in a nice enclosure, would give them much more options to make good (sounding and looking) speakers.
Matching an external amp with a set of passive speaker can be a tough job, and is often a hit and miss.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
i love active spekars ..
no amps...no preamps...no additional junk...just beosound and speakers....perfect..
Millemissen: Probably because they found out, that a combination of a taylored amplifier, a DSP for the processing of the input and some suitable tranceivers in a nice enclosure, would give them much more options to make good (sounding and looking) speakers. Matching an external amp with a set of passive speaker can be a tough job, and is often a hit and miss. MM
Good points, but you can't escape the fact that a lot of people buy passive speakers not matched to a particular amplifier. I wouldn't mind betting that more than 90% of passive speaker sales are based on reviews that take no account of the amplifier source.
marexy: i love active spekars .. no amps...no preamps...no additional junk...just beosound and speakers....perfect..
Agreed. I was never satisfied when I moved for a time, away from B&O, to separates (speakers / amps).
I'm going to side completely with B&o on this. The relationship between driver, amp and dsp is an intimate one. To get the best out of the music the dsp and amp need to know what is demanded of the drivers in terms of the inbound source signal. The electronics should be monitoring the behaviour of the drivers and how to get the best out of them and also adapting the signal knowing how best to extract the most from the transducer. At best its like an organism with positive and negative feedback with each component speaking or listening to each other. Knowing this is the ideal formula why would an engineer take a retrograde step to passive speakers. B&W know this but compromise their principles and stick with passive to make more money. B&O adhere to their engineering principles and prioritise this over profit and this is noble and to be admired in this era. What B&W and others need to do move forward and follow the optimum engineering principles and 'educate' the audiophool mass and bring them into the 21st century. B&O and studio monitors have got it right and rest haven't. I have listened to many passives in my quest over the last 12 months and they aren't a patch on B&O or active studio monitors. Finally, active speakers monitor the mechanical and thermal stress on the drivers. Passives by in large can't or can't do it very well.
.
Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
If you want to dig into this, here is a place to start:
http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2013/11/15/bo-tech-whats-so-great-about-active-loudspeakers/
N.B. If you haven't got much time for reading, just scroll down to read the Conclusion.
Millemissen: If you want to dig into this, here is a place to start: http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2013/11/15/bo-tech-whats-so-great-about-active-loudspeakers/ N.B. If you haven't got much time for reading, just scroll down to read the Conclusion. MM
All of that being said,
Then MAYBE a passive loudspeaker design could work just as well as an active design."
I think that that was achieved with the S45/S45-2 speakers.
vikinger:"Conclusion All of that being said, if your electroacoustical behaviour of every component in your audio chain was “perfect” (whatever that means) AND if loudspeakers behaved linearly (i.e. they gave you the same frequency response at all listening levels, and they didn’t change their behaviours when they heat up, and so on and so on) AND if you did everything properly (meaning that your cabinets were the right size and shape) AND if your production tolerances of every component in the system was +/- 0%. Then MAYBE a passive loudspeaker design could work just as well as an active design." I think that that was acheived with the S45/S45-2 speakers. Graham
Lee: The S45's are great speakers but they don't match a single one of those criteria.
The S45's are great speakers but they don't match a single one of those criteria.
That's because:-Amplifiers don't have to be perfect and linear-Speakers don't have to be perfect and linear-Production tolerances don't have to be perfect and linear-Your room doesn't have to be perfect and linearfor something to sound good.Natural sound can only be produced naturally. Believing you can produce (or reproduce) naturalsound using vibrating cardboard funnels is naive at best.Looking at graphs and numbers won't tell me if a setup sounds good or not.I don't listen to graphs or numbers either, I listen to the sound.The active speakers I've listened to may be linear and all that, but to me they sound grey and wearing on my ears. I don't want them.Give me the warm and pleasant sound of a discretely built amplifier and a pair of decent speakers.It may not sound natural and it may not be linear but I can enjoy listening to it withoutlooking forward to switching it off.That's important to me.If I wanted to enjoy the purest form of the contents of, say, a CD, I could print it out in binary form and look at it for hours.That would be the real deal with no distortion, resonances or whatever.
Oh - and I happen to both like and use Loudness.
Martin
Well Martin, I'm a firm believer in active speakers but you're absolutely right you can get pleasant, good sounding conventional speakers and amp setups. But like you, I use loudness, bass, and treble controls when needed to make things sound better or more natural. I've often said the thing that I love about my BS9000 since the beginning was being able to adjust such things from the listening position with the remote. The audiophile hair shirt approach of only listening with no tone controls to recordings that happen to sound good is nuts IMO. Too much good music on bad recordings that benefits from a touch of contouring to give that up.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
I can't and won't say anything against the listening habits and preferences of Dillen and Jeff (and probably others).
But it seems to be a widespread mistake, that speakers should be able to '(re)produce natural sound'.
As Dillen says 'natural sound can only be produced naturally'.
What a speaker (or rather the amp/speaker/etc combo) should be able to do, is to reproduce, what was signed off from the matering engineers, who finished the recording, before it was distributed in whatever form to the costumers.
I expect a speaker (= the combo) to be accurate (!), so that I am able to hear, what was intended with the final step of the recording. There is a lot of 'coloration' going on in the recording/mixing/mastering process, which is perfectly fine and part of the art of making recorded ( = not natural) music.
I don't feel a need to add my own coloration (eq-tweaking...) to the recordings, I have bought.
On the other hand. - everyone should be free to add his own preferences to his listening experience.
Personally I expect a loudspeaker company to (try their best to) built speakers, that are aimed at not adding anything to the recordings, that they reproduce at my place.
With an intelligent active speakers concept (like in the current BeoLabs) this is a lot easier. When a speaker furthermore (like the BL90 does) adds 'Room Compensation' to it's concept, it - for me - has come a lot nearer to realizing this.
There are B&O passive speakers but they're for building into your walls. http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/sound/loudspeakers/beovox-2
Beo Century ,Beoplay V1, Beocenter 6, Ex-Beolit 12, Beotime , A8. Beolit 15 , Form 2i , Beolab 2000, Beoplay A3.Beosound 1
I was really questioning why B&O had ignored the passive market having produced such fine passive speakers in the past. I fully understand why the B&O complete systems are for the most part active.
Active speakers may well be the best and it seems that many manufacturers may now be waking up to the benefits of the active approach, but as the main market stayed with passive speakers and amplifier separates for so long it really does look like an opportunity lost in terms of the market that was there. The availability of passive speakers (other than built-in for walls) would have kept the B&O profile up in the separates market. The fact that the S45/45-2 speakers are still so highly regarded makes it more of a mystery as to why the opportunity wasn't/ isn't grasped to reproduce the design.
vikinger: I was really questioning why B&O had ignored the passive market having produced such fine passive speakers in the past. I fully understand why the B&O complete systems are for the most part active. Active speakers may well be the best and it seems that many manufacturers may now be waking up to the benefits of the active approach, but as the main market stayed with passive speakers and amplifier separates for so long it really does look like an opportunity lost in terms of the market that was there. The availability of passive speakers (other than built-in for walls) would have kept the B&O profile up in the separates market. The fact that the S45/45-2 speakers are still so highly regarded makes it more of a mystery as to why the opportunity wasn't/ isn't grasped to reproduce the design. Graham
I think there is something to be said for B & O NOT going passive. There are already so many speaker manufacturers out there, and so many of their speakers look alike. Therefore, making only active speakers is a way for B & O to set itself apart.
Also, active speakers can use smaller cabinets that their passive competitors to get the same bass output. This also allows B & O to be different than the competition.
Also, I have my doubts about the important of passive speaker and power amplifier matching. However, I think the use of active cross-overs vs. passive cross-overs can make a huge difference in overall sound quality if done carefully.
D