Should I change my BS4 to a BS9000 to upgrade BL5's sound quality?

Hi dear B&O fans, I have a problem about my loved beolab 5s and need your suggestions:

I  have owned my pair of Beolab5s for one year connected to a beosound 4 which has only powerlink sockets but no digital output.

I listen to it quite frequently (mainly CDs) and have to say so far it sounds quite OKAY but yet not perfectly satisfactory especially for a bit lack of transparency and sometimes the soundstages are not very well clearly defined.

I read throught the user manual and start thinking of whether it's due to the lack of  a digital output of my Beosound 4? Because the Beolab 5 processes audio signals starting on digital data first while the BS4 can only give out  analogue signals via powerlink cables?

Since it's a bit hard to borrow a BS9000 in my city, I am now doing research on that and might probably buy one BS9000 if it could surely bring a upgrade to the sound quality.

Have seen some threads talking about similar questions and I really need your suggestions on this.

Look forward to hearing your opinions! 

Waiting online...

Hi and welcome to the Beoworld forum !

 

In order to have a "B&O" digital connexion with your BL5, you can look at a BS9000, BS5 or BC2, some BeoVision, some Beogram CD players... : they all have SPDIF output.

Will you hear the difference you are expecting, that's another question...

Don't forget that the placement of the BL5 and the room (size and furniture) are also playing a big role (as the CD quality of course).

 

Another way to extract the best out of your CD is to rip them, but this is not your question.

HI CB, really appreciate your reply!

I have read some discussion here in the forum, saying that there would be a big improvement (at least recognizable so honestly that I am expecting some real change... :P

Btw, have you ever compared these 2 settings, is it obivous improvement to you?  (truly there is a risk that I am not golden ears to tell the difference... T T)

For room size and placement,  how big room does it generally require? And a triangle placement with the audience?

Even in the same room a comparison of these two ways of connecting the BL5's can be tricky.

Just a small difference in the volume has an influence on our perception of sound (some would even say on the sound quality).

Generally a higher sound pressure level makes us think the sound is 'better' - and a higher level also makes your room react differently to the soundwaves.

A real A/B comparison will be rather different. The first thing, you should be sure of, when you compare, is that you don't know from which setup the sound comes - otherweise the placebo effect easily could fool you.

MM

In what you are describing for us it sounds like a placement problem. How you set up your speakers in your room will give you the Biggest change in sound.  A few tips is :

1. Do not place the bl5 near side walls. 1 m or more if possible. 

2. Try to have 3 m from center of one speaker to the other one. (Distance between the speakers)

3. Place your listening position away from a wall behind you. And so the line from your position to the speakers a 3m.

4. Try toe in the speakers.

5. If this not help, buy or borrow room measurement equipment. So you can pin point whats wrong. 

fishorcat:

have you ever compared these 2 settings, is it obvious improvement to you?

No I didn't... I went from BS Ouverture/Powerlink to full digital (well ripped CD + NAS + non B&O network player). The biggest discovery for me was to hear more difference between my CDs. Some were better - more detailled, some "different", some have lost their interest... The recording/mastering quality takes a greater importance to my eyes hears now.

On the same theme, "home made vinyl LP digitalizing" is a complete loss of time! Signal/sound treatment is a real profession. You hear way too many pops, cracks, rumble and defects without recovering the pleasure of playing a record on an actual record deck...

NB : the CD player/DAC quality also plays an important role In the game. I don't know the one in the BS4, but the one in the Ouverture hasn't a high standing.

fishorcat:

For room size and placement, how big room does it generally require? And a triangle placement with the audience?

I would say, a "large enough" symetric room for the BL5, but this doesn't help a lot ;-), far enough from the walls too, and no, the triangle is not that important (ALT - the BL5 discs - works well).

 

Wilderwein:

In what you are describing for us it sounds like a placement problem. How you set up your speakers in your room will give you the Biggest change in sound.  

Maybe a bit off-topic from the original posting (I know), but:

I totally agree - the influence of the room has a huge influence on how a setup sounds.

That is the reason, why one of the main focus points of the BL90 is compensation of the room influence (Active Room Compensation).

Hardly any B&O-costumer is willing to rearrange and 'sound correct' his livingroom - that (for the future) will be something, that speakers/pre-amps can do.

I am sure we soon will see this technology with other B&O products.

MM

thanks all! feel so cool that there are such a lot of friends here in this forum. what i learned from your kind suggestions:

1 there are many more variants that would affect how we perceive the sound quality… especially room set up

2 be aware of the placebo tricks when doing so called comparison

3 have to work harder to earn myself a larger living room  that is no bad thing anyway~

4 to enjoy music matters most than being obsessed with tiny technical tactics (yup honestly i am more or less influenced by some of my audiophile friends's cmts on my bl5) 

i will cool down my urge to purchase a new player right now and cut a bit down my expectation on how much different that a change of a player would be

LOll Need a larger living room than what I have right now...

Yup I have the intuition that now the room is a bit too small to open up its potential..

Btw, what kind of measurement equipment could help? Havn't used and thought of that before actually :(

Thanks! Yes CDs' quality differs ...  I can tell that often, sometimes really substantial difference.

"home made vinyl digitalizing" ---  so you mean ripping CDs or digitally connection BL5s? 

Thanks! Your experience is quite similar to my situation.. BS Ouverture/Powerlink Vs Full digital hah ..maybe can be a prediction of my case? Yes totally agree sometimes CD's quality matters more..

Btw, home made vinyl digitalizing----- do you mean ripping CDs at home? :D , or like digitally connecting BL5s?

Good point and implicaiton..  

when I just bought my pair of BL5s, I thought the Adaptive Bass Control could automaticly solve the problem of room settings ... too simple-minded :(

fishorcat:

"home made vinyl digitalizing" ---  so you mean ripping CDs or digitally connection BL5s? 

I'm talking about vinyl disc or record or LP (remember, previous century way of listening to music ;-) , not CD

fishorcat:

3 have to work harder to earn myself a larger living room  that is no bad thing anyway~

4 to enjoy music matters most than being obsessed with tiny technical tactics (yup honestly i am more or less influenced by some of my audiophile friends's cmts on my bl5) 

5 i will cool down my urge to purchase a new player right now and cut a bit down my expectation on how much different that a change of a player would be

3 I tried a pair of BL5s once in a too small dealer's room (less than 15m2) : they performed as the BL8000! 30m2 may be a minimum to my eyes hears.

4 when you acquire BL5s, it's also to free your mind of "tiny technical tactics" and not to "believe", but to be "sure" you have the best. If you're not really satisfied, there should be something wrong...

5 as recommanded above, you may start by changing a little bit the placement of your BL5s ; it won't hurt...

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Hi Fishorcat, 

I always find these two articles from Geoff Martin about listening tips and room acoustics very informative: 

http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2014/06/23/bo-tech-listening-tips-tricks/

http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2014/02/14/bo-tech-but-what-if-my-room-is-scandinavian/

 

I have BL5's and a fairly "Scandinavian type" room. In that room (about 50m2) the sound of the BL5 was greatly improved by: 

 

1. Positioning the speakers very close to the wall

2. Adding a carpet on the (wooden) floor / 2 bookcases on the walls

3. Not being afraid to use loudness switch or bass / treble adjustment (in my case with Beosystem 4 audio processing) 

 

See the articles why this is effective. 

These three things did more for the sound quality than any tweaking of the source / using SPDIF signal / using high res files etc. 

 I use Deezer (via Moment) and CD quality lossless recordings via Twonky, power link connected via Beosystem 4 and it sounds great. 

 

Best, 

Peter

Oh that' great! let me take some time to learn. 

Btw: why place the speakers close to the wall rather than some distance from the wall, you mean the back wall or the side wall ?:D

I see.. my living room is >30m2,  but with a long-narrow shape so that's a bit difficult to position them quite wide apart..  :(

Sometimes I feel not really satisfied ( especially for some CDs) , so that's why I am thinking of some adjustment..

30 m2 should be ok. If you can set them up well. But for transparency i think you need a better source. 

I use a Mac mini with dedicated audioplayer and a really good USB-spdif converter with a few tweaks. The source is rather important I have discoverd. 

Even if the bl5 has room adaptation built in there is better options to use today. I decided to go with Dirac Live. 

Good luck and feel free to ask if you have any question. 

I think the problem lies in the BeoSound 4 CD player. I always remember Moxxie stating that it wasn't a particularly nice sounding - rather flat & lifeless I believe. I remember that I got a better sound from the SD card reader in it.

fishorcat:

Oh that' great! let me take some time to learn. 

Btw: why place the speakers close to the wall rather than some distance from the wall, you mean the back wall or the side wall ?:D

The way I understand it is that effect is the biggest when placed close to the side wall as the BL5 will send more high frequency energy to the side than to the back (the BL5 is not omnidirectional and radiates high frequencies approx. 180 degrees). Basically what you get when you place the BL5 close to the (side) wall is the frequency response as shown in figure 7. When placing the speaker close to a wall (or walls) you would normally get (much) more bass, but the Automatic Bass Calibration of the Beolab 5 will compensate for that effect. All this should lead to a more accurate frequency response throughout the entire frequency range. The way I understand it is that this will have a (negative?) effect on the spatial characteristics as well, but I am not sure what that effect exactly will be. 

yes I agree a better source is needed. 

Regarding room correction, Beolab 5 's ABC is surely not a superior solutions nowadays. But Beolab 90 is much more advanced. I dont know if it's the best , but at least at a very remarkable level as I heard once.

Thanks for your help Wilderwein!

Oh really?  Even SD card gives better quality than CDs?  But what you describe is exactly how I felt sometimes, flat and lifeless, so true, sadly... I once connected it to my A9 player, it sounded even poorer than my panasonic CD walkman .. but I persuaded myselft it's due to the poor AUX output in BS4.

Yes I am seriously considering to replace it with a BS9000 now

Wilderwein:

30 m2 should be ok. If you can set them up well. But for transparency i think you need a better source. 

I use a Mac mini with dedicated audioplayer and a really good USB-spdif converter with a few tweaks. The source is rather important I have discoverd. 

Even if the bl5 has room adaptation built in there is better options to use today. I decided to go with Dirac Live. 

Good luck and feel free to ask if you have any question. 

Yes I agree that a better source is needed. 

Regarding the room correction technologies, BL5's ABC tech is not a superior solution nowadays as I see, while Beolab 90 is really awosome. Might not be the best but at least performing at a highly remarkable level. I heard it twice in the retailer's. Totally impressed.

fishorcat:

Regarding the room correction technologies, BL5's ABC tech is not a superior solution nowadays as I see, while Beolab 90 is really awosome. Might not be the best but at least performing at a highly remarkable level. I heard it twice in the retailer's. Totally impressed.

The BL90 (and for that matter the BL5) does not 'correct the room'.

The software compensates (or tries to compensate) for the influences of the room - which is something different.

N.B. Last thing I heard is, that the 'Active Room Compensation' feature has not yet been implemented to the BL90's.

MM

fishorcat:

Oh really?  Even SD card gives better quality than CDs?

Give it a try !

The BS4 is able to read mp3/WMA format, but I don't know if it is able to read "better" (high bitrate lossless) files?

Try with the max it support...

NB : use a computer to ripp / load the SD card, don't do it on the BS4!

"The BL90 (and for that matter the BL5) does not 'correct the room'.

The software compensates (or tries to compensate) for the influences of the room - which is something different.

N.B. Last thing I heard is, that the 'Active Room Compensation' feature has not yet been implemented to the BL90's.

MM"

___

Ok, agree that's an more accurate expression:) For BL90s, I am not sure but just heard from the salesperson that the  ARC technique would beh available as soon as the APP on the mobile phone is launched. When I auditioned, however, it was playing under the normal lens acoustic mode, but still, definitely superior.