Is external DAC(digital-analog converter) a waste for beolab5？

Background:

As a owner of beolab5 (connected with a beosound4), I love my lab5 however have been not very satisfied with its audio performance, and still searching for a good solution to improve...

2 days ago, I tried my friends' WEISS MAN301 (which is a very good digital media with built-in DAC module). Using its analogue output, the lab5 generate an obviously improved sound (honestly it did,compared to my beosound 4) but I guess the difference is mainly due to its turntable rather than the new DAC?

My understanding:

Why I thought so: coz the lab5s are fully digital,  the analogue signal output from any external DAC will be first converted back to digital in the DSP chip of lab5, and then converted again to analogue for amp then to propel the speakers . So there is a A/D + D/A process for all incoming analogue signals.

So, is it useless to equip lab5 with a high quality DAC? while .. a good player/turntable with SPIDF output would be comparatively much more useful. Right?

 

Hope to hear your understanding and instructions on this.

Many thx!

fishorcat:

As a owner of beolab5 (connected with a beosound4), I love my Lab. however have been not very satisfied with its audio performance, and still searching for a good solution to improve...

Then, use something better than your BS4, with better music sources. And it's better to feed your BL5 with a digital signal if your source is already digital.

fishorcat:

while .. a good player/turntable with SPIDF output would be comparatively much more useful.

Completely agree.

Question: Why did you use the Analog output of the Weiss Man and not the SPDIF output?

If you want to use a (vinyl) turntable with your BL5, the simpliest solution is to connect it directly (or via an RIAA amplifier) to your BL5 (analog way). The electronic inside the BL5 will do the job then.

An old thread to read here on this subject : http://archivedarchivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/33242.aspx

Thx CB!

My friend said I need a good DAC, so atually BL5s dont  need/use external DAC at all.. right?

I have just edited my first answer. Please read it again.

Before answering your second question, you need to explain precisely what you want to do...

What kind of music sources/gears do you use, are you ready to change something/everything (habits, sources, equipment)?

..The answer wasn't fully loaded a moment ago and now I see your full answer.

I played CDs on my friend's MAN301 (which has a CD player and built-in DAC module) and connected via RCA lines only to BL5s, so only the analogue output is used and accepted by lab5s. Without any digital connections.

What I want to do is keep the BL5s and I would like to keep playing CDs as my major sources, but ready to change other equitpments (like the players). And to see what's the key area for improvement in my case.

 

Then (as you already wrote) using a "good" CD player (like B&O Beogram CD player or any other brand) with SPDIF output may be the simpliest solution.

The Weiss Man 301 is an expensive way to achieve this... (but It's a lot more than just a CD player)

NB: a B&O (IR) remote control may be necessary to set the sound level directly on your BL5.

And I read the old thread you mentioned :)

Not that into Vinyl right now... so for me mainly digital sources like CDs. 

Interestingly, MAN301 has a non-DAC version only to output digital signals from its CD player or NAS/USB sources, I think that would be sufficient (coz its DAC will be redundant)?

With any digital source equiped with a SPDIF output, you don't need a DAC for your BL5.

 

NB: I think there was a misunderstanding on my side. What I call a "turntable" is for vinyl disc, for CD I call it CD player.

--> I have edited all my messages to make them simpler/clearer...

Hi CB, that was really nice of you for all you answers. It's quite clear

Per my experience with my lab5s , though I own them for not long, I gradually realize that it needs a good source to be better utililized. Beosound 4 is not enough for it.  I once considered a replacement with BS9000 but it was out of production in my country already (therefore difficult to borrow one for audition) and furthermore in some forum, it's said that the difference with BS4 is small.

Coz my major source are CDs and maybe more and more lossless soundtrack files (FLAC\WAV..) in the future ,  so then I turn to weiss MAN301. Agreed with your view, it's a lot more than just CD player. I would say it's more of a digital media player with a very good DAC module (the DAC module of WEISS is quite prominent as I know).

But now I am stuck with the confusement that whether the DAC in it could be useful for lab5s. Theoretically of no use since the lab5 is fully digital epecially considerting all analog signals will go through ADC first for DSP processing. But very surprisingly I heard from a friend of mine that it sounds much better when using 301's analog output ( CD sources) than using the pure SPDIF digital output. That was really difficult to understand....

If external DAC can help improve the performance of Lab5s... why? Is the digital data after [digital- DAC(in 301)- ADC(in BL5)- DSP-DAC(in BL5) ] process even better thant the original digital signal?

Anyway, I will compare by myself and to explore more about the way to improve the audio performance of BL5s :)

I've never had the pleasure of listening to a Beosystem 4 so can't really comment on how it sounds, but the BS9000 has SPDIF out so is a good match for the BL5. However, if your tastes run to streaming and ripped media, no matter what format (MP3, AAC, FLAC) a combo CD/Media Server device is a good improvement as you can output anything you have in digital format to the BL5.

As for sounding better with the analog outs, hard to believe that's true unless there's something in the analog out that's not truly accurate per se. The act of going from digital to analog and back to digital seldom if ever produces a better (if by better you mean more accurate to the original source file) sound, the best you can usually hope for is that it doesn't degrade it, if done properly. But in general the fewer translations the better.

Ultimately you should make your decision based on what sounds best to you of course. But be aware that it's very, very difficult to do these kinds of comparisons without inducing subconscious biases, which is why level matched, double blind tests were invented. I do know from experience that unless you match the volume of two sources under comparison to 0.1 dB or less you will be comparing relative loudness differences more than actual signal quality. Usually the source that is louder is perceived as being better, and at small level differences, the ear usually perceives the loudness difference as a quality difference. The ear is remarkably bad at detecting small loudness differences. Years ago I did some detailed testing of various DACs compared with stand alone digital players (CDs) and when level matched the sonic differences I was sure I heard disappeared, even without hiding the identities of the units under test. The whole exercise was delightfully informative and surprising! Units I was sure had either better bass, better imaging, smoother treble etc. all sounded alike once level matched. And I tried both upping the lower level devices and lowering the louder devices to avoid any bias induced by my level matching equipment.

Hope you find something you enjoy and sounds great to you though. The 5s are amazing speakers that have never gotten the love from the audiophile press and community that they truly deserve.

Hi Jeff,  thanks for your reply and sharing your own experiences.

Yes I really love my lab5s and that's why I am trying to find a good match for it to fully perform  ( while beosound4 is not an ideal partner honestly). I am interested in CD players but B&O doesn't manafacture pure CD players right now, which makes it a bit difficult to borrow one to try or have an audition at the dealer's. Then by chance I was introduced the WEISS MAN301 and luckily heard a better sound out of the new combination.

Actually 3 days ago I tried the WEISS MAN301 (the server version, without DAC) connected to lab5 using the direct digital output, I really found the digital signal feeds lab5s well and gave a more transparent and clearly-defined sound than with a DAC. That's same as what you have said. So the conclustion that "the fewer translations the better" really stands !

But now my major concern is WEISS MAN301 is costly, and I am wondering if there is any pure CD player that could match BL5s really well but with a more reasonable price?

 

I just looked up the price for the player you tested, YIKES!

If you're just looking for CD, not CD with streaming, you can do a lot cheaper. Since you're not going to use the built in DACs anyway you don't have to worry about this or that audiophile argument about DACs, plus I've found precious little, like no, real differences in blind tests. NAD makes inexpensive but good CD players, plus Cambridge Audio makes transports, no DACs, in the 500 US dollar range, much cheaper, and why pay for a DAC if you're not going to use it? Just about any CD player with a coax SPDIF digital out will work. It always amuses me how the audiophile community goes all lunatic fringe worrying about digital cables and jitter, both of which have to be abominably bad to be audible, but they have to find something to obsess over.

I think you should be able to get a CD plus streamer for a lot less as well, but I have to admit to not being as familiar with that kind of component as I might be. But I know they do exist at far cheaper prices.

Good luck! My BL9s only take analog in, but driving them with either my BS9000 or my Playmaker they sound just fine to my ears. I have to admit too that as I get older I am less and less critical and just enjoy the music, but it all sounds fine to me. Even my audiophile friends have to grudgingly admit that B&O sounds awfully good without wearing the hair shirt some audiophile gear requires.

Just get a BG CD7000 and connect it via Powerlink and spdif to BL5.

If you don't want a 'real' Beomaster to control the system, get an MCL2 AV - cheap and should work.

You can even connect and control additionel sources like a Beogram and a TV.

BS9000 sounds really, really good on BL5, but the CD7000 sounds fantastic !!

I had both setups and I couldn't believe my ears, when I tried the CD7000.

If this setup doesn't satisfy you, it's not the system....

Hope this helps

Stefan

 

fishorcat:

I am wondering if there is any pure CD player that could match BL5s really well but with a more reasonable price?

That was my suggestion, but be aware that going this route, it will be difficult to listen to anything else than "physical" CDs (e.g. streaming)

hey all, thank you for all your suggestions! just to update that i finally ended up with a weiss man301 server (but without its DAC module, so it is a pure digital input). I tried to find a BO product but most of all unvailable at dealer's nowadays and hard to support both CD and non-physical digital sound files.

Now both of my CDs and other digital sources could be played and directly feeding beolab5 with WEISS MAN301,

and I have to say, it better suits BL5s than my beosound4 in terms of giving more transparency and higher resolution, avoiding unnecessary double AD/DA translation.

Only pity that DSD files seem not to be well decoded and making a lot of noises… but i already quite satisfied

I think i will keep the new combination for quite long.

good to hear you suggestions but pitifully i couldn't find a CD7000 in my city[:\'(]

then i turn to a server like MAN301

Thanks Jeff, I really appreciate your attitude that to enjoy music matters much more than focusing on audiophile terms

Yes you are right, a streamer plus a cd player might be cheaper… but have to do more research and to get a try respectively… lazy as me, i finally choose a easy and quick solution

Anyway, at least i save a DAC haha

fishorcat:

Thanks Jeff, I really appreciate your attitude that to enjoy music matters much more than focusing on audiophile terms

Yes you are right, a streamer plus a cd player might be cheaper… but have to do more research and to get a try respectively… lazy as me, i finally choose a easy and quick solution

Anyway, at least i save a DAC haha

Oh, believe me, I have often found that, if money permits, just throwing money at a problem until it's solved has it's places and charms too! Sometimes it's all you can do.

Apparently worked here right? You have the capability you need/want, so all's good. Glad to hear you're enjoying your setup and hope you continue to enjoy it for years to come.

You can't go wrong with this Weiss Man!

GREAT choice,  congratulations, and now, enjoy