ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Leslie: Leslie: Evan: Wow Leslie, you are making some outrageous progress! Really curious on how you changed your 2500/Overture display to read 'IPOD' as a source!!! Not that difficult, just a matter of reprogramming the eprom and change data from TP to xxxx hmmmm, think I'm gonna try this on my Beosystem 4500 to let Beolab 3000 flatpanel read Ipod and change the text on my glasspanel with Ipod
Leslie: Evan: Wow Leslie, you are making some outrageous progress! Really curious on how you changed your 2500/Overture display to read 'IPOD' as a source!!! Not that difficult, just a matter of reprogramming the eprom and change data from TP to xxxx
Evan: Wow Leslie, you are making some outrageous progress! Really curious on how you changed your 2500/Overture display to read 'IPOD' as a source!!!
Wow Leslie, you are making some outrageous progress! Really curious on how you changed your 2500/Overture display to read 'IPOD' as a source!!!
Not that difficult, just a matter of reprogramming the eprom and change data from TP to xxxx
hmmmm, think I'm gonna try this on my Beosystem 4500 to let Beolab 3000 flatpanel read Ipod and change the text on my glasspanel with Ipod
Cool! Ever tried it on Beolab Penta? Do you have the equipment to reprogram it yourself?
Anyway, doing some spring cleaning!
Leslie,
Looking at your fine work you seem to be the man to ask this. I got my hands on a beomaster that looked like it was stored somewhere very humid. It had rust all over the bottom plate. I had it sanded and powdercoated. Now it's all shiny, but the lettering is gone. I would like to restore that to, but do not know how. What method do you use for lettering. Considering your attention to detail it must be the way to do it!
getting on with it .....
.
Brengen & Ophalen
bzuidgeest: I got my hands on a beomaster that looked like it was stored somewhere very humid. It had rust all over the bottom plate.
I got my hands on a beomaster that looked like it was stored somewhere very humid. It had rust all over the bottom plate.
What Beomaster is that ?
Martin
To answer both dillen and leslie's questions. It is the bottom plate of a beomaster 2200. It's nothing special. But I wanted to see what could be done for what cost and it seemed like the perfect candidate for an experiment. I have added two pictures that I think will show the difference.quite well. If you look closely you will see that the surface is not completely flat on the rust spots after powder coating. That is because the rust had eaten into the metal. This kind of thing most likely kan be repaired to if you really want to, but for something that is on the inside I choose not to investigate that.
Before, note the rust and peeling paint in the top and bottom right, these were not the only spots
after sand blasting and powder coating, same corner
Still need lettering and an arrow for the voltage selector. I've read several instructions on decals and silkscreening and the like, but I do not know what would work best. I'm in my first attempts at cleaning up "vintage" equipment. So tips on lettering are welcome
new look trim panels using artists acrylic and gel medium....
all fixed up with new panels, caps, lamps, bridge, and trimmed to spec.
That letraset stuff is expensive! At least the custom transfer stuff which I would need for the bottom images...
Other question. Did you paint the panels or did you tape them over? either is suggested in your previous posts.
No you did not, I looked again and the painting was eugene. I got confused with you both making white panels in such different ways.
Yes, I am
Leslie: bzuidgeest: Other question. Did you paint the panels or did you tape them over? either is suggested in your previous posts. Did I? Link referred to adhesive tape so not painted!
bzuidgeest: Other question. Did you paint the panels or did you tape them over? either is suggested in your previous posts.
Did I? Link referred to adhesive tape so not painted!
I will need something like that or some other type of laminate to cover the speaker set I intend to match up. for smaller piece the paint is fine, but I wouldnt want to use it on a larger surface area like a speaker cabinet unless I sprayed it.
I have a set of S-75 with some pretty beat up woodwork that would be an ideal candidate for such a project.
I will need to do some "local" research to see if I can find something suitable.
Beautiful work on the Redline speakers (CX's too).
Leslie, can you share your technique on the Redline grill cloth replacement? Do you do it by yourself? I restored a pair of RL140 speakers last year and they came out very good. However, I finished those up thinking there has to be an easier way. My method took three people. I built some cardboard guides to allow me to spray adhesive (3M Super 77 I think) only to the areas I needed glue - the strap channels, the area where Bang & Olufsen is embossed and the rear area of the frame where the cloth attaches. After spraying the glue on I had a short amount of working time so two people kept the cloth taut while I place the frame down and wrapped the edges over and into position. I also had to make sure I pressed down the front side (strap channels and embossed lettering). I saw the other Beoworld post where two-sided tape was used on the rear of the frame. That looks like a good alternative. I would really like to know your steps and what kind of glue/tape you use. Also, what kind of grill cloth did you choose?
Thanks,sonavor
Great. That will be much appreciated. I have a couple pairs of RL60.2 speakers and another pair of RL140's that are on my to do list so the information will be real helpful.
Hi Leslie,
thanks for the Link you sent me to hit this thread. Yes, it´s me. Now that I had the chance to look in detail what you and the others are doing, I have to frankly admit that I´m deeply impressed. That are beautiful refurbished pieces of art! I have also to admit that I haven´t done those things by myself yet, so I can only judge from a probably "less-than-amateur-point-of-view", but I really like it (O. K., cycling I´m doing as well, so ........). Serious, one of my favourites is the iPod in combination with the Beocenter 2500. Is it still in use and working?
But, since I started in February this year looking into the vintage part of B & O products, e. g. purchasing the dream hifi system of my younger days, Beosystem 4500 incl. respective Beogram and Beolab 4500 flat panel, I´m constantly more and more involved in repair and maintenance issues.
BTW: Thanks for your cable covers .........
So, expecting some rainy days in summer or autumn, I think I will try to get my second, but real damaged, Beogram 4500 back to work. I put it in my closet, not being able to stand the view of this fine piece of art any longer, being bent and hurt in a bad way. Maybe this is the right place to ask, where I can get the needed spare parts?
Considering the title of the thread, I will install this week my Beomedia 1, trying to hide it and avoid visible cabling. Once it is done, it will be connected with my Beovision 10-46 and through ML with my Beosound 3000 as well as with all other linked rooms (i guess this sounds boring, e. g. compared to the restauration of a BC 6000, but right now, I have to stick to what I´am able to do ........).
Thanks again and regards,
Rolf
nice job,Leslie,that's so coooooooool!
fenghua
I think the tangential is hanging loose. What is really bent is the transmission axle of the logic mechanism (I hope, this is the correct description). This definitely has to be fixed (don´t know, if it´s possible) or replaced.
Also, the chassis is bent as well:
You see, the frame within the platter is turning is no longer an exact circle. But the platter can still turn with no problem. I think this issue can only be solved by exchanging the upper part of the chassis, but the existing one is still O. K. for function besides the optical pain.
The string should be put back without a bigger problem. In fact, the biggest problem here will be, that I never did it before .........
The damage was done being shipped from Belgium to me, they must have been throwing it around in any direction they could. To be fair, the packing could have been better, but it was for sure not handled with care.
Regards,
Yes Leslie, that´s what I thought as I opened the box. I put it in my "archive" as a spare part storage. But when I checked it (as far as I could) I got the idea that it could be repaired. Maybe only one or two mechanical parts have to be replaced. To get it back to life, also the tonearm must be adjusted, the string put back in place and some other fixings have to be done, hopefully nothing impossible.
Cosmetically, the upper chassis part should be replaced. I guess, if another defect BG would be available, this could be done. A few month ago there was one available on ebay.de (at that time I was in the "spare part storage" mode ........).
I think it will take some time. I will come back when (good) news can be announced. In the meantime I would be thankful if you or other members have hints for spares if possible.
P. S.: The Beomedia 1 is completly installed and connected, working perfectly together with my BV 10-46 and the BS 3000, almost no wiring visible though it is in another room than the A/V masters. And W-LAN connected without the recommended PCMCIA card, thanks to the netgear wnce 2001. Because the BM 1 is in range of my Beomaster 4500 and has ML as well as Powerlink connections, a new idea came to my mind: a) Maybe I could use the BL 4500 speakers for my BV or the other way round the speakers connected to my BV for the Beosystem using the PL of the BM 1, b) connect the Beosystem via ML/MCL Converter with my ML network (as far as I know this could be possible, when the BM 4500 is in the "slave" mode, but then two-way mode should no longer be possible). I have to think this through.
The latest .....
Just like mine, are you going to do this update ??
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Get rid of all those Red tantalums in favor of Wima MKS2's. And of course, replace all those burnt trimmers. I'm busy on a BM4000 right now, I'll post pictures when I'm finished, but I can tell you that at least 40 resistors on the tuner, pre-amp, and power-amp PCB's were way out of spec and will be replaced.
Today, I upgraded the ON (red) and RAD (white) lamps to LED's, with a 1KOhm 1W resistor and a 1N4002 rectifier in the top right corner at position 135 instead of the original 220 Ohm. My motivation was very simple. The RAD lamp was blown, which disconnects the ON lamp as well, as they are connected in series. It is a disassembly nightmare to get into the RADicator to replace the lamp, so I decided to just put in the LED's on that circuit.
The other 3 lamps are easy access, and cannot be replaced by LED's anyway, so I've left them alone.
Here you can see how I lined the rear portion of the RADicator lamp housing with silver paper to reflect the LED's illumination more consistently over the whole 1-5 scale. Before I put in the silver paper, I was very disappointed with the lighting quality on the RAD scale. The rear of the silver paper is insulated to prevent shorts on the power terminals.
Menahem
Here's the RADicator with the white LED installed - with the reflective silver paper installed behind the LED, the light quality is quite uniform across the scale.
Eugene,
On the power-amp PCB, those black 4.7uF 63V caps are signal path coupling caps. You've used generic caps, which are wasting all the improvement you've tried to achieve by using the high-quality Nichicon Gold Audio caps. Some of your Gold Nichicon caps are NOT in the signal path, but are decoupling caps, so they're a bit of overkill - you could have used regular Nichicon HE or PW in those positions..
You should really replace those 4.7uF - you can use Wima MKS2 4.7uF / 63V - not cheap, but at least you'll be keeping the audio quality high.
The tants stay and if there is a need to replace some then it will be with another tant of the same value. As for the audio grade caps. i purchased a lot of them a a year or so ago and recapped pieces with them and was able to compare the sound quality to earlier work done with generic and couldnt really hear much , if any, difference at all. Once I use up my remaining stock of KW and FW I will be replacing them with stinky ole generic Fujicon RK's and make up any shortfalls with even lowlier NTE's purchased locally.
It's critical to the success of any restoration to research thoroughly and understand which capacitors and resistors need upgrades, and which don't.
Willy-nilly replacing components with super quality units is a total waste of money. By the same token, ignoring the special requirements of signal-path components is really selling yourself (and the machine) short.
Before starting a restoration, every component should be checked to determine its function, and then the appropriate upgraded or non-upgraded part selected appropriately.
Only then will you really hear a substantial improvement after the job.
It's work, and it's effort. For most of the people here, it's not a production-line mentality, but a labour of love.
Of course, it's your individual choice what you want to do, but I will put my restored units up against any comers for sound quality and reliability comparisons.
Here is an example of a component map of that PCB - green is signal path, red is power rail. I make 3 maps for each circuit board - one map for capacitors, one for resistors, and one for semiconductors. It's a one-time investment for the first unit of any type I do - they are then available for all subsequent restorations of the same or similar type - for example my BM4000 maps are mostly good also for the BM3000, and parts of the BM4400.
This is not about tooting my own horn, it's just about showing how critical proper preparation is to the overall success of a project - sound-wise and reliability-wise.
In principle, I don't have any objection with replacing tantalums with tantalums - the audio quality on a tantalum is just fine.
However, all Tantalum capacitors have a major design flaw - when they fail, they fail SHORTED. And can (and do) cause substantial damage to the surrounding components.
When an electrolytic or film capacitor fails, it fails OPEN. And generally does not cause collateral damage at all to the surrounding components.
That is the exact reason why I object to using tantalums. This is a business for me, and any comeback after a restoration is a complete waste of time and money. So, I prefer to err on the side of reliability here, and generally substitute tanatalums with Wima film capacitors, which have a very nice audio signature, as well as having a self-healing characteristic. Costs a bit more, but as Martin said, I sleep better, and don't have to worry about comebacks due to bad capacitors.
Tantalums are popular today for a very simple reason - in the never-ending drive to miniaturization, tantalums provide the biggest capacitance buck for the smallest physical size.
And today's market ethic is "buy and throw away". So when a tantalum fails shorted and therefore destroys a bunch of microscopic IC's with it, nobody cares much. Just throw away the appliance, and buy new.
Look at what's happened to Nokia - it's a looming disaster for the European economy. Nobody cares about their quality anymore. The market's shifted to the Asian junk.
Because the reliability of today's tantalums is nothing to write home about (compared to B&O's original spec tantalums), so I avoid them. It's simply a reliability issue.
Martin,
My wife and I disagree on more than we agree! And we're going on for 20 great years together.
So there's still hope for you and I !!!!!!
This is a forum where the members aspire to doing better than average. Some in fact, aren't satisfied with "better than average", and push for excellence, in whatever form that may take. That's very positive and healthy, and it's that creativity which makes this group exceptional, when compared to just about every other technical forum on the web.
I'm proud to be part of that mindset. Someone who pushes boundaries, for whatever reason, will probably cause disagreement along the way, and as someone who is familiar with pushing boundaries and causing disagreement, I'm perfectly OK with that.
Sometimes I may push boundaries and find I've made a mistake, and sometimes I be right, but it's all part of the adventure.
I'm having fun here, and love to share the success of the other members who push the boundaries as well.
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So whether you agree with Martin or Menahem, you can show your support for either by purchasing this once in a lifetime, good luck bracelet!
Replacing the caps in your loudspeakers with cheap electrolytics? Refoaming your woofers without shimming the voice coils? Guarantee success by wearing this WWMD bracelet while working on your priceless BEO!
I think that where tants are concerned, they tend to fail more often than not when used as decoupling capacitors in power supplies, when subject to transients / in rush currents etc.The only faults I tend to come across with tants in the signal path is that of generation of spurious noise.
I agree with Martin over the Electros especially when pushed near the edge or those with the multiple legs.
regards the other subjects I am willing to open my mind and hear a difference with various capacitor grades at this level but have yet to find it. The mind is a very powerful instrument but not a terribly precise one where comparative measurements are concerned - I have shown to my own satisfaction that even I can be fooled on a psychological manner by anything but a blind test with instantaneous switching between amps / sources and identical volume levels! I know some don't like this, but that is the way it is IMO. And even if there was a 'marginal' difference, How can that be an advantage, if you are not constantly comparing things to how they were previously?
I would say however that a lot of these audio grade caps are very cheap when purchased from the states and in quantity (not including the wimas though!) and I personally use them because of the range available and ease of ordering!
One more note I am certain B&O only ever chose tants for their small footprint / diameter / height more than anything to do with performance, I would love to know for sure though, and I am sure some clues are locked away in the Struer vaults somewhere!
Olly