ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Eclipse 65V1-32Beosound M5Essence MK2BLI
We seem to have envy from opposite sides of the pond. KNX has some very gorgeous wall controls, which we on this side of the pond don't have access to. However, you might.
Seanie,
Take a look here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ttzGv_9cOU
I drool with envy for you Europeans. KNX is nearly nonexistent in the U.S. Those keypads look so very B&O!
Ooooh that's all quite exciting! I didn't realise we were limited in Europe with the Lutron RadiaRa2, I've been planning out my setup based on using those! I've only briefly look at that YouTube video of KNX but they look pretty sexy! Does anyone know of the concept is the same as Lutron? I.e. Pretty easy to swap your light switches and integrates with BLGW ok? I'm wanting to do the same as Seanie - control Hue bulbs with decent looking keypads.
BeoVision Eclipse 55”, Beolab 18s, Beolab 19s, Beosound 1, Beoplay P2, H3, BeoRemote One IR, BeoRemote One BT, Beoplay S8, Beosound Essence MkII, BeoTime
We are nearly at the end of our extension, had originally planned to use Lutron radiaRa 2 but they were not available for the UK. Then got a load of second hand lutron GRX units but the trouble was retrofitting them to the old part of the house. So in the end it was easier and cheaper to go for normal wiring (and quicker) and then will use Philips Hue bulbs.
It was a compromise but it will work well if I can work out how to program the MLGW to work with the bulbs!
badgersurf: We are nearly at the end of our extension, had originally planned to use Lutron radiaRa 2 but they were not available for the UK. Then got a load of second hand lutron GRX units but the trouble was retrofitting them to the old part of the house. So in the end it was easier and cheaper to go for normal wiring (and quicker) and then will use Philips Hue bulbs. It was a compromise but it will work well if I can work out how to program the MLGW to work with the bulbs!
So are you going to have switches on the wall that will turn off the master light in a room (I.e. Then the bulb can't be turned on)? Just wondering how you're doing the light switches basically. I'm trying to plan it so my wife can understand it (she understands everything but if I make it more complicated she'll relish moaning at me) :-)
beojeff: Seanie, Take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ttzGv_9cOU I drool with envy for you Europeans. KNX is nearly nonexistent in the U.S. Those keypads look so very B&O!
I really should be doing some work - but have been looking at these:
http://www.basalte.be/en/products/switches
Very cool looking - does anyone have any experience with them? Do they need wiring-in or can they work wirelessly and talk to the BLGW as Seanie and I are after?
Hello Beoteam
The KNX stuff looks interesting.
Is this stuff DIY or can installers only get the kit
Has anyone any experience with the KIT working with BLGW?
I do like the swtich with a display as i really fancy buttons that have functions for example, Music On, Curtains open, Volume Up, Bedtime etc.
Seanie_230: Hello Beoteam The KNX stuff looks interesting. Is this stuff DIY or can installers only get the kit Has anyone any experience with the KIT working with BLGW? I do like the swtich with a display as i really fancy buttons that have functions for example, Music On, Curtains open, Volume Up, Bedtime etc.
Yeah - this one looks pretty swanky hey:
http://www.basalte.be/en/products/deseo
Chris Hassell: badgersurf: We are nearly at the end of our extension, had originally planned to use Lutron radiaRa 2 but they were not available for the UK. Then got a load of second hand lutron GRX units but the trouble was retrofitting them to the old part of the house. So in the end it was easier and cheaper to go for normal wiring (and quicker) and then will use Philips Hue bulbs. It was a compromise but it will work well if I can work out how to program the MLGW to work with the bulbs! So are you going to have switches on the wall that will turn off the master light in a room (I.e. Then the bulb can't be turned on)? Just wondering how you're doing the light switches basically. I'm trying to plan it so my wife can understand it (she understands everything but if I make it more complicated she'll relish moaning at me) :-)
Most dimmer switches are not compatible with Philips Hue lights. Those dimmers that ARE compatible must be kept in the full on position at 100% power. The Lutron dimmers are not compatible because they do not provide a constant all on load. Therefore, I just use the RadioRa 2 hybrid dimmers for those lights that I have that do not use Hue bulbs. For the wall switches that control Hue lights, I replace the switches with RadioRa 2 wall switches that have just buttons and that do not control a lighting load. In such a case, I wired the wall switch so that the load is constantly on (which is what is needed for Hue bulbs). The hot wire that powers the button panel is then connected to the lighting load wires that are twisted together. (I'm sure a proper electrician could explain this better than my layman terms.) It really is quite simple. Basically, you are removing the on/off switch to the Hue lights so that the load to the Hue lights is constantly on.
I seem to recall that there is at least one B&O dealer in the U.K. who is also a dealer of KNX and is a member of this forum.
Interesting do we know who the dealer is so i can contact them.
Lutron do a LED Balast.
RadioRa2 is very different tin the UK and USA and works differently too which is a shame.
Hi Seanie,
I'm certainly no KNX expert although I do fully intend to enrol on the KNX certified installer courses when I have the time to do so.
Seanie_230:The BLGW ways KNX EIB is that a special part of KNX?
EIB (European Installation Bus) was one of the predecessors of KNX.
Seanie_230:I spoke to a company today who will call me back but basically they said KNX is the protocol the devices use and many company's make the devices but it's not limited to installer / dealer only which is great and you could find an installer who will work with you and let you have as much input as you want too.
Yes, KNX don't restrict access in the way that many other systems do now.
You'd need a central KNX control box / gateway that the BLGW will communicate with and will in turn connect to the various KNX devices.
You'll also need a licence for the ETS software if you want to set it all up yourself - there are three options here depending on the scale of your planned installation:
Free license for up to 5 KNX devices.
Lite license (200 euros) for up to 20 KNX devices
Pro licence (1000 euros) for unlimited devices.
(or of course you could leave this aspect to an installer who will already have the software and licence dongle).
Regarding the physical practicalities of installing - a single twisted pair is the usual method of connecting KNX devices but there are wireless options too.
Hope this helps.
Martin.
PS. If you want to have a look at the programming and installation side in more detail, the two training course manuals are now available in ebook format (from Amazon) for just a few quid each - much cheaper than buying printed copies.
riverstyx:Hi Seanie, I'm certainly no KNX expert although I do fully intend to enrol on the KNX certified installer courses when I have the time to do so. EIB (European Installation Bus) was one of the predecessors of KNX. Yes, KNX don't restrict access in the way that many other systems do now. You'd need a central KNX control box / gateway that the BLGW will communicate with and will in turn connect to the various KNX devices. You'll also need a licence for the ETS software if you want to set it all up yourself - there are three options here depending on the scale of your planned installation: Free license for up to 5 KNX devices. Lite license (200 euros) for up to 20 KNX devices Pro licence (1000 euros) for unlimited devices. (or of course you could leave this aspect to an installer who will already have the software and licence dongle). Regarding the physical practicalities of installing - a single twisted pair is the usual method of connecting KNX devices but there are wireless options too. Hope this helps. Martin. PS. If you want to have a look at the programming and installation side in more detail, the two training course manuals are now available in ebook format (from Amazon) for just a few quid each - much cheaper than buying printed copies.
beojeff:Most dimmer switches are not compatible with Philips Hue lights. Those dimmers that ARE compatible must be kept in the full on position at 100% power. The Lutron dimmers are not compatible because they do not provide a constant all on load. Therefore, I just use the RadioRa 2 hybrid dimmers for those lights that I have that do not use Hue bulbs. For the wall switches that control Hue lights, I replace the switches with RadioRa 2 wall switches that have just buttons and that do not control a lighting load. In such a case, I wired the wall switch so that the load is constantly on (which is what is needed for Hue bulbs). The hot wire that powers the button panel is then connected to the lighting load wires that are twisted together. (I'm sure a proper electrician could explain this better than my layman terms.) It really is quite simple. Basically, you are removing the on/off switch to the Hue lights so that the load to the Hue lights is constantly on.
That's exactly right. Unless a keypad is described as "hybrid" it is just a keypad and does not act as a dimmer on a wired lighting load. The "hybrid" keypad looks the same as the regular keypad, but it can also have a lighting load wired to it and controlled by that keypad. You can program the buttons on the keypads to control anything in the RadioRa 2, including the connected light load. The connected light load can be programmed to be controlled by any of the buttons on the connected keypad or any other keypad in the system and can be controlled to trigger a specific light level or just a toggle on/off if you choose. This is all done by way of the Lutron programming software. However, you can also just use the MLGW/BLGW programming to assign any RadioRa 2 button to be a trigger or an event in any MLGW/BLGW macro. You can even use the MLGW/BLGW to use a RadioRa2 trigger to act on a RadioRa2 EVENT. I often find myself doing this instead of using the Lutron software.
While Seannie is correct that Lutron now offers LED-capable dimmers, it's not confirmed if Philips Hue can be connected to those dimmers. Lutron has a specific list of LED lights that are compatible with their new LED dimmers, but Hue is not on that list. I think that the Hue bulbs are rather different from other LED bulbs in that they are not actually dimmable by a connected load control. They must have a constant 100% load in order to function. It has been a popular request to Lutron to provide an option to set the hybrid dimmers to act as just on/off load controls. However, they cannot currently do this. This also means that the hybrid keypads cannot be used to control anything other than a dimmable light -- for example, a bathroom fan.
Here's a thought: the RadioRa2 tabletop keypads might still be an option to use in Europe. I have some examples in the Media section in this site of tabletop keypad with engraved buttons. The tabletop keypads can be used with batteries for daily use. You only need to connect them to the mains for the initial activation. This could be achieved with a voltage converter. After the activation, they could be used with BLGW when powered by AA batteries. They even come with a bracket to mount them on the wall. When using batteries instead of being connected to the mains, the tabletop keypads no longer have the backlighting. However, they are still labeled by the engraving.
Chris Hassell:Thanks @beojeff - love investigating different ways of doing and the setup you have sounds soooo good. I'm thinking there might be a radio frequency problem with RadioRa2 in the UK perhaps? @seanie do you know if that's why we can't get the full/decent keypads? I'm worried some of those sexy KNX keypads need wiring and there isn't a decent wireless option like the Lutron main repeater seems to be. Are there not wireless IP driven keypads or similar? I'm going on a hunt (or starting a new business venture - who's in? ).
I'm worried some of those sexy KNX keypads need wiring and there isn't a decent wireless option like the Lutron main repeater seems to be.
Are there not wireless IP driven keypads or similar? I'm going on a hunt (or starting a new business venture - who's in? ).
I can't see how the radio frequency would be an issue. I know that in Europe you have a different shape of wall switch than we do in the U.S. (I actually really like the shape you have in Europe.) You should definitely be able to use the U.S. tabletop keypads with a voltage converter. You might, however, need to use the U.S. main repeater (with a voltage converter) -- which you could probably get for $250 USD on eBay. I could help get you the software -- which might only work with the U.S. version anyway. Since the wall keypads are hardwired with the voltage -- you would not be able to use those. However, the tabletop keypads come with a wall bracket. If you keep the tabletop keypads connected to the mains via the converter, you would still get the back-lighting for the engraved buttons.
beojeff:I can't see how the radio frequency would be an issue
I suspect what Chris is talking about is that the 'licence free' frequencies that devices are allowed to use differ in different parts of the world, so whilst they would work (once the 110/60Hz vs 240/50Hz mains differences are overcome) they may or may not be legal to use in the UK, and might not communicate with any UK spec lutron wireless devices that you wanted to include in the same setup.
Chris Hassell:I'm worried some of those sexy KNX keypads need wiring
That's true to some extent, uptake of 'KNX RF' by manufacturers has been a little slow although there are a fair number of wireless keypads and the like from the main players that have appeared on the market over the last 12 months or so. KNX keypads are often of modular construction, with the electronics, the keypad, and the decorative parts often being selected and ordered seperately, so with KNX RF+ now gaining momentum I can forsee many more of the existing ranges being offered in an RF version in the future.
Chris Hassell: and there isn't a decent wireless option like the Lutron main repeater seems to be.
There are a number of KNX RF to KNX TP (twisted pair) bridges available now and at least some of these will also work as KNX RF repeaters. You need to be cautious of the hidden station problem when using wireless repeaters as it can lead to undetected collisions on the network (this is not a problem unique to KNX RF - it can affect any form of wireless communication involving repeaters).
Kind Regards,
Really interested to find out @seanie_320. So would they be putting wires into your walls to link everything?
Hello there
Well it turns out a Lutron wall box would be installed in my hall next to the fuse board.
All existing lights would be wired back to this with mains cable which i am lucky i can run because the carpets upstairs are already up since my last electric work. I also have four cables for the living room already going back to the iLight source controller which is already there.
then lutron blue power cable for the keypads woudl need to be wired either daily chain or back to the wall box for the keypads to work.
My quote will be for the system to be supplied and programmed but for customer or contractor to wire all the circuits into it.
the system can dim LED too.
this might be a great start for me as i can start with a single room if i want as Lutron Homeworks can be expanded later.
They will configure the buttons and scenes of which i can program the BLGW to do some things inside the house also like close curtinas via a global cache or turn TV off etc.
My fear is this is going to be hugely expensive to make the first leap.
the reason i want to do it like this is if all existing cable is left in place i can put it back when i move one day and keep my system.
OK well
Lutron Homeworks QS is very expensive
7 Light circuits4 KeypadsBox / EnclosureConnection to BLGW
Six GRAND plus VAT for supply and programming not including electrician
Next Steps are to start looking at KNX
All i really want it some nice looking keypads that can triggar some lights and BLGW Macro's
Back to the drawing Board.
Now who was the dealer that understands KNX.
I think my absolute minimum requirement to start is:
One Keypad connected to a network device that talks to the BLGW so i can have all programming on the BLGW.
Then I can remove the Essence from the wall and have a nice keypad.
After this I can replace the Hue bulbs with a KNX LED control for the middle room and start to "play" more.
Need to find someone who can help with this very basic starting point.
Chris Hassell:£6k is INSANE! Without the cabling work??? Eek! I'm after the same thing mate. Surely must be relatively easy alternatives out there! Even infrared that talk trough to the BLGW as the essence remote does? Although that wouldn't help where there is no B&O IR receiver I suppose! What's your reason for getting rid of the essence remote?
I'm after the same thing mate. Surely must be relatively easy alternatives out there! Even infrared that talk trough to the BLGW as the essence remote does? Although that wouldn't help where there is no B&O IR receiver I suppose!
What's your reason for getting rid of the essence remote?
The Lutron QS system is much more expensive than RadioRa2 and is intended for much larger installations (i.e. mansions!) Also, as I tried to warn, the dealers charge a huge premium for them to do the installation. This is such a relic of the old days of home automation. Not at all in keeping with the reality of today. I still think that a simple solution could be getting a U.S. RadioRa 2 main repeater and U.S. tabletop keypad (which can also be wall-mounted) used with voltage converters. This is provided that the radio frequencies would not have an issue in your country. While the US Main Repeater probably could not work with UK Lutron products, you could just add a UK main repeater later for that network if needed and have both networks work with the BLGW.
I considered the official B&O aluminum, branded iPad surrounds for wall mounts. However, I just cannot find any place in my home where they would make sense. I remember seeing them in the showroom and thinking how amazing they looked, though. I checked with my dealer and the price is around $500 USD. For less than this, you could get a Beo6. There are some on the U.S. eBay site right now for $299 USD. While these come with the U.S. power cable, you can easily get a UK cable to plug into it. The more I hear about your needs, the more I think you might find a Beo6 remote to be quite attractive. While the buttons are virtual rather than physical, you can label, position, and program the buttons on the screen to meet your needs. With a little creativity, you can make the screens of the Beo6 truly gorgeous. The Beo6 was much maligned by people used to the Beo4. This was mostly because people were used to the tactile buttons of the Beo4 that could easily be used in the dark without looking at the remote after becoming accustomed to where the buttons were located. However, the BeoRemote One has totally gone in the other directly. I absolutely cannot stand using the BeoRemote One.
hi seanie!
Do you know the busch jäger keypads with zigbee?
http://www.busch-jaeger-catalogue.com/index.php?bereich=1013323&programm=1022970
Normal 0 21 false false false DE JA X-NONE
they are compatible with the philips hue bridge and maybe you can use it with the blgw as a trigger for a event. (not tested!)
BS Ouverture, BS 9000, AV 9000, Avant 32 DVD, BV9, BV6-22, BS 5, BS 4500, BS 7000, BC 9500, Beo6, BL Penta, F1000, BLGW, etc....
Hi @seanie_230 - have you done or looked into anything more with your lighting setup? Are you still thinking of looking into a KNX keypad solution?