ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
You could also try broadcasting in n as well as g , reserving the n for the beolit. That should help with interference although n does have a shorter range.
How about an Apple Time Capsule Chris?
Beosound 8, Beotime, Beocom 4, Beo 5, Lutron Rania, MacBook 15" (Mid 2015), iPad Pro, iPhone 6S, B&O Play H3, Beolit 12, Form 2, A8 Headphones, B&O Play A1, B&O Essence
Chris Harrison: How about an Apple Time Capsule Chris?
That is what I have switched to, and it is running like a "rock" .... and you have seen pictures from me of the A3 in the garden receiving internet radio broadcasts from the TC
BeoNut since '75
elephant: Chris Harrison: How about an Apple Time Capsule Chris? That is what I have switched to, and it is running like a "rock" .... and you have seen pictures from me of the A3 in the garden receiving internet radio broadcasts from the TC
And me. I still have my Netgear router, but as I mentioned before, turned off the wifi, connected it to the TC and use the TC network instead. Plus you get a network drive for backing up or storing your files.
moxxey: elephant: Chris Harrison: How about an Apple Time Capsule Chris? That is what I have switched to, and it is running like a "rock" .... and you have seen pictures from me of the A3 in the garden receiving internet radio broadcasts from the TC And me. I still have my Netgear router, but as I mentioned before, turned off the wifi, connected it to the TC and use the TC network instead. Plus you get a network drive for backing up or storing your files.
And I removed my Netgear and connected the TC directly to the internet.
I must admit I have some nervousness since I knew how to administer the Netgear to assure myself of its security layers.
I have no idea whether I get the same level of protection from the TC -- yes, I agree this is being stupidly ignorant and overly trusting.
Also, although I do use the TC for backup (and therefore it contains the data from 3 Macs) it has already had one hard drive failure with a complete loss of all data.
So by no means perfect -- but its wifi performance is satisfying me in ease of use, stability, and throughput/range.
However like everything else, it goes slow when our microwave is nukeing our food.
elephant: And I removed my Netgear and connected the TC directly to the internet.
How? It has no "modem" and no ability to handshake with an ISP. The Time Capsule is simply a device that builds in basic router support for distributing wifi. It doesn't enable you to handshake with your ISP with it.
I guess there might be some ISPs that give you the option to ethernet directly to a local network, but most situations require you to connect to a telephone line/cable of some kind.
I really would try your time capsule to provide your wifi. AirPlay traffic behaves differently to other network traffic ( don't ask me why, I have no idea) but I know the internet is littered with people having similar issues with all sorts of AirPlay devices. Apple forums, b and w forums etc are all full of people reporting the same issue, namely all other devices such as laptops, phone and printers work fine, but AirPlay speakers won't connect and drop off the network.
In every case I have read switching to an Apple wifi network has resolved the issues. You mentioned you already have a time capsule, I would use that, and I am fairly sure you will then love your bl12 like I love mine. I really believe this is an AirPlay issue, not a B&O issue. I would guess that if it wasn't for market pressure Struer would have stayed away from AirPlay completely.
Goo luck
What also might help is to configure your router with DHCP reservations. It’s the same as assigning a static IP to every device you have, even if you can’t assign a static IP in the device itself. Only now it’s all managed by the router, who assignes the IP adress based on the (unique) MAC-adress of your device.
If you have a Time Capsule, with the Airport Utility it is very easy to do this.
moxxey: elephant: And I removed my Netgear and connected the TC directly to the internet. How? It has no "modem" and no ability to handshake with an ISP. The Time Capsule is simply a device that builds in basic router support for distributing wifi. It doesn't enable you to handshake with your ISP with it. I guess there might be some ISPs that give you the option to ethernet directly to a local network, but most situations require you to connect to a telephone line/cable of some kind.
sorry - yes there is a cable modem (I do not have ADSL) for the optical fibre.
the ISP is now on their second version of this - the first which we got over a decade ago was the size of a shoe box, this one is smaller.
so both the Netgear router and now the TC attach to this optical fibre "modem".
I think most of the discussion has been about ISP ADSL modem's that include a wifi capability - the kind I used when I was in the UK, and the kind that are available here as well.
elephant: so both the Netgear router and now the TC attach to this optical fibre "modem".
As you say, that's just a simple cable modem which connects to a router (previously the Netgear) and your TC is just acting as your router.
In my and most people's situation, my "router" is also the modem. I've just turned off the wifi part, so the network is now handled by the TC. It's important we don't confuse Chris and let him think the TC can handle everything :)
Just got home and its a time machine we have.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Well £200 later, and a few late nights my Beolit 12 is now working. Get the Beolit App to check on the status of reception etc.
Good points.
It's ability to go mobile with it's battery makes it very useful, and as it can also charge your device almost unique i believe. Do B&O sell a cover for transporting it on holiday/day trips?
For a small box it sounds fantastic when listening to music at higher levels. It is perfect for a bedroom and considering it cosmetics, a kitchen(Dualit!)
On this note of say the kitchen the materials and general design will protect it from light spills etc
Bad points.
The charging station is in a very fiddly spot and will lead to a few broken connections.
The setup can be tricky. I used the cable method in the end and that was more straightforward, although the website address wasn't always accessible(last night for example).
People here and at B&O will always tell you their products are always based on mature, tried and tested technology hence their sometimes late entry into a market. This is not the case with AirPlay. Litter your house with enough Airport Express that even GCHQ would be proud of and your on the right track.
For what it is, it is £150 too expensive.
The Zeppelin looks like a B&O product you could be proud of, the Beolit doesn't but makes up for it where it counts. The Zeppelin isn't mobile and made as a stand alone i know, but this corporate image is important.
Because it is trying to belt out a big sound from a small box, listening to a talk station isn't as clear as on my Ipad when it is turned up. ie the tone is sometimes too subtle and bass too dominant. My wife just tested this and confirmed this.
And finally, the Beolit is the Paul Potts of devices. When talking he just mumbles like anybody else you could meet, and not the best looking guy in town. When he ramps things up and belts out a song, he pretty damn good. The Beolit is very much the same.
Chris Townsend:Because it is trying to belt out a big sound from a small box, listening to a talk station isn't as clear as on my Ipad when it is turned up. ie the tone is sometimes too subtle and bass too dominant. My wife just tested this and confirmed this.
I don't have a BeoLit but I do have an A3, and the A3/iPad interface has this entry in the Apple Settings to cater for the difference between voice and music.
Just take a look at your iDevice's settings and see if there are any over rides that look like these ...
I didn't realise how expensive B&O are until this evening i've just realised that you can get the most beautifully designed, superb performing B&W speakers for £299, add a decent amp at say £199 and that's less than £500 for TRUE hifi sound. DAMN!!! So if BANG&OLUFSEN are so expensive and obviously have a HUGE profit margin WHY are they always nearly practically bankrupt??? Maybe its just the few of us 15 or so people on this forum that buy B&O???
Paul W: I didn't realise how expensive B&O are until this evening i've just realised that you can get the most beautifully designed, superb performing B&W speakers for £299, add a decent amp at say £199 and that's less than £500 for TRUE hifi sound. DAMN!!! So if BANG&OLUFSEN are so expensive and obviously have a HUGE profit margin WHY are they always nearly practically bankrupt??? Maybe its just the few of us 15 or so people on this forum that buy B&O???
So called high end HIFi is always going to be expensive.
To a degree one is paying for perceived exclusivity, and perceived design/performance excellence, but in reality, especially with many of Britains so called high end HiFi specialist assemblers, one is paying for small cottage industries populated by entrepreneurial enthusiasts with odd sound philosophies they are trying to market on the back of highly inefficient production methods, with a low volume/high markup business model, trading on the back of very expensive and snob sell marketing, aimed at turning a sows ear into a silk purse in the eye of potential consumers.
Products are marketed as being handmade and the results of 'craftsmen' Translation is that the company is tiny, cannot afford modern production methods, and makes by hand accordingly, and you pay - both in terms of cost to the end user, and in variable performance, often outdone by mainstream manufacturers using the very latest production methods and with vast resources as regards R&D.
I've been involved in the purchase of such products in my audiophool years and never again.
Certainly I'd rather buy a top tier Yamaha amp + some good B&W passives than faff about with so called high end separates delivered by cottage industry tweakers at huge prices, because the VFM of the Yamaha will be heaps better, as will likely the sound, believe it or not.
However, B&O is one of those rare companies where, whilst I accept that they are very expensive, and play in the high end, they also really do deliver.
They're not just specialist assemblers - much of what they make is actually made by them - in house.
Their R&D is to the best of my knowledge, only equalled perhaps by the likes of Harmon International when we are talking speakers, rooms, psycho-acoustics and the speaker/room interface. The Archimedes project, run between B&O, Kef and a technical university in Denmark was a multi million pound research project into psycho-acoustics that took place over several years. Much of the results of the Archimedes project were built into the Beolab 5 - a speaker which took six full years to be developed, of which two were on the mathematical modelling of the ALT lenses alone.
This is the kind of dedication to engineering and acoustic excellence which is extremely rare in the High end, Hifi industry, and for which B&O should be applauded.
Of course they are expensive, but I should imagine Paul, that if I hired you as a marketing man, or personal trainer, you would point to your degree and charge accordingly, right?
Do note Paul, that most of B&O's senior engineers, are amongst some of the most highly qualified people to be found in the industry, with a good number of PhD's to be found amongst them.
One of the unique things that distinguishes B&O in the high end HiFi scene, apart from the quality, style and integration, is active speakers.
There is little doubt that active speaker operation is vastly superior on technical and sound quality grounds compared to passives - yet the vast majority of kit out there features passive loudspeakers and separates as regards amplifiers etc.
The reasons for this are purely commecial - once you go beyond a highly capable all in one home theatre in a box solution from the likes of Sony, Panasonic etc, you enter the world of separates and the mix and match tweak market of the anorak audiophile. Audiophiles tend to believe heavily in magic fairy dust, rather than science and reason, so a plug and play solution such as B&O offers, or Meridian would be another example, is generally not for them. They like to mix and match. Similarly, if you are a retailer, relying on repeat sales to stay afloat as well as new business, the hifi 'upgrade' is a cornerstone of your business.
One of the masters of this is Naim audio - which I can speak of from experience having owned it. Rather than design an pre-amp for instance with a competent power supply at the outset, one is offered a very basic power supply in the amplifier for the pre - and then if you want to 'improve' the sound, there is a range of external power supplies available to do this - a flatcap, HiCap and Supercap in the case of a pre-amp. But then the concept of separate power supplies is also applied to CD players and Networked music/HDD players as well. More boxes, more upgrades, more sales.
It's also highly inefficient, very expensive for the consumer, and on engineering grounds arguably completely unnecessary.
Top of the performance tree for Naim is active speaker operation. This will involve a source, then pre-amp, separate power supply for the preamp to 'improve' it's performance; a SNAXOS active crossover (with it's separate power supply also) coupled to a bevy of power amplifiers. For a two way speaker, this means either two stereo amplifiers, or better yet, four mono-block amplifiers, a so called four pack in Naim terminology.
Don't forget the racks to support all these boxes, and the importance of said rack to deal with microphonics - Naim just happen to make a very nice one called the Naim Frame - it retails here at A$1,000.00 PER LEVEL, and ideally you want one piece of kit per level - no stacking allowed.
Compare this approach to B&O, where the speaker itself is active - that is each individual driver has it's own individual amplifier, and the crossover is active as per the Naim - BUT in the B&O case it's all built into the speaker itself.
In part, this is only possible because of the in-house B&O development of very high quality Class D amplification - the ICE power modules - which provide very high power, low distortion output, with minimal heat, and a very small footprint.
The necessary DAC is to be found in the TV along with the usual surround sound processor. This is why B&O can offer such superb performing kit in such simple, yet elegant form.
Take another look at the speakers themselves.
No ubiquitous MDF veneered wooden boxes, with parallel sides, consequent internal standing waves reflecting back out through the cone; a flat baffle with consequent reflections and standing waves to sully the sound, a tweeter that beams and ensures the presentation of the speaker will be similar to large headphones....etc.
Instead, we have enclosures made in conical or rounded, or spherical shapes, ensuring optimal distribution of sound as regards polar and power response; materials used being very high quality and very rigid composites giving minimal cabinet readout; no bass reflex ports to chuff, or allow sound to exit the box, the ALT lenses giving a presentation unparalleled in a conventional two channel stereo array; protection from thermal and mechanical overload courtesy of the active drive and DSP; the proprietary Adaptive Bass Linearisation to compensate for the deficiencies in human hearing sensitivity at low volumes, called the Fletcher Munson curve. And so on.
Paul, this is engineering competence at the very highest level; only companies at this end of the market such as Meridian can truly compete IME.
That B&O can present these products at the prices they do is a small miracle IME.
As an example, lets look at the top B&W speaker - the 800. In this country, it retails at A$29.000.00 per pair. They're a 3 way passive design - a design choice if you read the white papers, made almost certainly for the commercial reasons previously mentioned - with state of the art drivers and a laminated plywood box, and as they're also a very current hungry design if you want to get the best out of them, you'd be well advised to put some top tier amplification with them - the Classe CA-M600 would be a very good match with the ability to swing lots of current. It's a monoblock, and retails at A$9.000.00, so you'll need two of them for stereo - so A$18,000.00. Add that to our speakers and we get a total of A$47,000.00. Note, we haven't discussed racks yet (you'll need a couple, the amplifiers are very large and heavy) and of course the commensurate 'high end' speaker cables.
Compare this to the Beolab 5 which is a four way fully active speaker, has onboard DSP to measure and adjust for bass levels in room; the ALT lenses, thermal and mechanical overload protection et al... all the previously mentioned B&O speaker features, and is arguably from and engineering and sound POV a superior speaker to the 800 OVERALL, yet, retails in this country for A$30,000.00 - a cost saving of some A$17,000.00 over the B&W combo and active into the bargain - no deliriously expensive racks and cables required.
So Paul, tell me which is the better value? In this country, A$17,000 buys you a Japanese light car.
It's easy to knock B&O, and to group them with other High End manufacturers, but I feel that this is patently unfair and have endeavoured by putting out an detailed example and explanation as to why it is unfair in my view and experience.
I rather think that there's more than 15 or so people on this forum buying B&O fortunately.
There are some who appear to have lots of money, are told that B&O is very good, and despite not having much audio experience, buy into it.
There are others, perhaps like myself, who, whilst not poverty struck, don't have a lot of disposable cash either, but have been through the whole enthusiast/hobby/hi-end obsessive and neurotic thing, coming out the other side much, much wiser, and considerably lighter of pocket, who find B&O a wonderful antidote to the whole neurotic high end obsessive tweaking scene, and it's obscene pricing.
Then perhaps others like yourself, hooked on style and the apple world, and coming to B&O at the entry level of the market, expecting more or less perfection, but at mainstream prices. I really don't know that this will happen. Despite using state of the art production methods, B&O are still a small company, and you will pay for low volume/high markup accordingly.
But in the example you've given, of some B&W passive speakers coupled with an separates amplifier, I'd state that the active speaker system in my V1 is not only technically better, but almost certainly going to give you better insight into the music as well.
And speaking of buying - do you still feel you will actually buy some B&O, or are you content to sit and praise one minute, and harp and complain the next, meantime vacillating seemingly endlessly and buying nothing - lol... I've said it before Paul, ... jump in... the waters fine...
But I do hope my little rant here gives you some insight into why I 'believe' in B&O, and whilst not cheap, and not perfect, would prefer to buy their products over almost any other in the market place when the measure is performance as regards sound quality, and VFM to get that sound quality as a TOTAL package for the home.
The ONLY other brand I can think of that could even begin to approach B&O active speaker sound quality, and do it for less, is AVI - who sell on a built to order, direct over the internet business model. They're very good, and have something of a cult following, but as a fashionista, you'd not likely find them to have the requisite style and cache that you appear(?) to demand in your consumer purchasing decisions.
Kind Regards
John...
Chris Townsend:Did I mention it can be controlled by the awesome Beo 4 using A-mem. Again really useful especially if is high up in a kitchen say.
No I did not realise that
I guess that does not work with the A3
I can understand the logic of that as you are supposed to be sitting right next to the A3 to see the small screen
( as an aside I've dictated these four lines using the new feature in Mountain Lion and had to make a few corrections !)
I prefer the striking designs of yesteryear , check out the old beolits designed by Jacob Jensen.
This thing looks like a cross between a breeze block and my granny's Roberts radio.
For some years, I've tried to condense my thoughts, and then you, John, come and write them out in a single post. Thanks and congratulations
--mika
tournedos: For some years, I've tried to condense my thoughts, and then you, John, come and write them out in a single post. Thanks and congratulations
Agreed - well thought out, well meausured and pretty much spot on!
Ban boring signatures!
Hi john 100% agree with everything you say,I too have been down the high-end seperates route with linn,which makes b&O look cheap,you know what I mean owning naim.I also had a pioneer kuro plasma.
Everything had fantastic sound and picture,but missed the simplicity of b&o one remote easy to use less cables,timeless design,obviously you pay for this,but would not go back.
I am in to bauhaus design and b&o compliments it aswell.A casio digital watch will have more features than a rolex and will tell the time,but I know what I would rather have.
I think B&o is fantastic value for money and would rather have a simple beolit 12 playing nice sounds in the kitchen than a full on seperates system in their for the same price.
I would never go back to another brand now,Paul w says b&o is overpriced then harps on about how good bose is.lol
As usual John an excellent audio informed reply.
butch1:I am in to bauhaus design and b&o compliments it aswell.A casio digital watch will have more features than a rolex and will tell the time,but I know what I would rather have.
I subscribe to LINN RECORDINGS and the latest newsletter led me to realise they had updated their site too (similar to B&O) so I went for an explore and came to these conclusions:
- the scenes of the equipment in use are more evocative and seductive than the clinic designer scenes that B&O are currently using
- their link room and digital music messaging is simpler and more appealing
However the equipment is soulless when compared to B&O ... just boxes with no consistency and no flair.
And the speakers are very average in looks -- not having every listened to LINN I can't comment, but I would love yo hear John's opinion since I don't think has mentioned them so far.
What I do think they do well is promote music -- and link superior quality recordings by implications to usage of their equipment.
I wish we had more B&O produce CDs or recordings for download -- I would be willing to pay, they don't have to be product give aways.
Chris Townsend: Well £200 later, and a few late nights my Beolit 12 is now working. Get the Beolit App to check on the status of reception etc. Good points. It's ability to go mobile with it's battery makes it very useful, and as it can also charge your device almost unique i believe. Do B&O sell a cover for transporting it on holiday/day trips? For a small box it sounds fantastic when listening to music at higher levels. It is perfect for a bedroom and considering it cosmetics, a kitchen(Dualit!) On this note of say the kitchen the materials and general design will protect it from light spills etc Bad points. The charging station is in a very fiddly spot and will lead to a few broken connections. The setup can be tricky. I used the cable method in the end and that was more straightforward, although the website address wasn't always accessible(last night for example). People here and at B&O will always tell you their products are always based on mature, tried and tested technology hence their sometimes late entry into a market. This is not the case with AirPlay. Litter your house with enough Airport Express that even GCHQ would be proud of and your on the right track. For what it is, it is £150 too expensive. The Zeppelin looks like a B&O product you could be proud of, the Beolit doesn't but makes up for it where it counts. The Zeppelin isn't mobile and made as a stand alone i know, but this corporate image is important. Because it is trying to belt out a big sound from a small box, listening to a talk station isn't as clear as on my Ipad when it is turned up. ie the tone is sometimes too subtle and bass too dominant. My wife just tested this and confirmed this. And finally, the Beolit is the Paul Potts of devices. When talking he just mumbles like anybody else you could meet, and not the best looking guy in town. When he ramps things up and belts out a song, he pretty damn good. The Beolit is very much the same.
So it was a network issue, and now resolved the BeoLit works as expected.
Go to feel sorry for the dealers who must be dealing with loads of this, in the same way that B&W and all other suppliers of airplaydevies are
John: The ONLY other brand I can think of that could even begin to approach B&O active speaker sound quality
The ONLY other brand I can think of that could even begin to approach B&O active speaker sound quality
According to the people in our tech business, Spendor produce very decent active speakers at a very affordable price.
Paul W: Maybe its just the few of us 15 or so people on this forum that buy B&O???
Maybe its just the few of us 15 or so people on this forum that buy B&O???
You finally got off the pot!?!?!
CONGRATS! What did you buy???
Oh, and thanks John for another thoughtful, considered post.
Issue not resolved at all. I didn't have any network issues as 2 Apple tv's, 2 Iphone 4s, 1 Ipad, a Macbook Pro, an Imac plus 3 x Sony Vitas all work flawlessly. Oh and a PS3.
I now have an Aiport Express that is backing the whole thing up, and it is 1 metre away from the Beolit. Reception Marginal, then poor, then good then nothing. Airport Express on other side of Beovision 6.
Dealer coming Wednesday so it might be unit. Who knows.
Hi elephant I have to admit myself linns main competitor is naim,both have different audio presentations.Naim is exciting sounding more in your face good for rock,john would clarify this.Linn is more relaxed and smooth and has you tapping your foot with good timing.
Linn sound systems are in a different league to b&o due to the source being better,but I would rather have the compromise now of having b&o,which looks better and all links together nice with the tv,and sounds good enough for what I use in for,no more tweaking here and there,just listen to the music instead of the components.
B&o flagship system is lab 5s and a source,where linns your talking £100k plus fully aktiv
ohn: The ONLY other brand I can think of that could even begin to approach B&O active speaker sound quality
hahaha
Just as an update. Our local B&O dealer came round and tidied up or broadband setup which has improved things significantly, in as much as i now only loose signal say twice an hour as opposed to every other song! He also replaced the unit. I cannot listen to it in our kitchen (10 feet away from router with all kitchen devices off) without having to use a usb cable connected to our Ipad, so as to listen to music without waiting for the inevitable drop out.
It works better upstairs, and the dropouts are less prevalent but reception is still poor with again the usb cable the only easy to actually relax and listen. I actually bought this device so as to lay back in bed after a stressful day and enjoy some music . Now i look forward to going back to work for a rest from it. Its quite clear with brand new routers and airplay express devices, a new device and the broadband cleaned up, that Airplay is simply not fit for its purpose. At the moment technically, it is an expensive unreliable gimmick. I accept for some it works, but just the quickest look at google confirms what i have experienced.
Get a Beosound 8, connect it physically and save you and your dealer a lot of time and stress.
Drop the internals out of the case and just use it to carry your picnic!
Thats about all its good for i'm afraid. Just had some good quality Adele playing which even the dreaded mother in law was commenting on i*s g g g g goo* qu**ity s s s ou*d and hey presto if off again. With the routers/stress/travel/dealers time etc its the worst £800 i have spent to date.
Damn!
Chris how is the quality of your signal say streaming from your iPad to the Apple TV? Isn't that using AirPlay technology as well?
Damn, so it can't be an Airplay general problem Chris if Airplay is superb with ATV etc. Surely it's a B&O design problem with the implementing of AirPlay? To me, it sounds as though B&O need to severely address this?
Update the software and or buy a Boom Boom 75 it runs over blue tooth so its a lot more stable then wifi in most cases, especially when you use it in the garden / boat etc.