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Adding a subwoofer to current set-up

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Garethowen
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Garethowen Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016 10:47 AM

Hi All - 

I have an all B&O set-up, which despite being all B&O is somewhat unconventional (because it's the only way the dealer/I could figure out to set it up - will explain below).

I'd now like to add a subwoofer (either a beolab 2 or 19) to the set-up but whenever I speak to dealers about this they appear confused and usually give me conflicting advice (not great as it's all B&O stuff so should, in theory, all work perfectly together).

So here's the current set-up:

- I have a Beosound essence (which I use daily for music) 

- a Beovision 11 (which is connected to the essence via the essence's line-in - as this seemed to be the only way to be able to use the speakers with the essence independently of the TV and have TV sound going through them too).

- A pair of beolab 12.2s connected to the essence

- A pair of beolab 3s daisy chained from one of the 12.2s.

(in addition, I already have one issue with this current set-up where the final speaker in the chain often stops playing sound and goes to a low buzz until it's turned off and on again or I fiddle with any one of the wires between it and the 12.s it's daisy chained to - but we can leave this issue for another day :)

So, How would I best connect a sub to this set-up? (so that it can work well with both the essence on its own, and with the essence + beovision 11 when that's turned on too).

The easiest way to connect the sub would be to daisy chain it from on the of the 12-2s, but I understand this would either create some sort of delay in bass or wouldn't tell the other speakers that the sub was there, and therefore they would still try to handle the low notes themselves(?).

Any advice gratefully received!

Many thanks in advance,

 

Gareth.


Millemissen
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Hi Gareth,

indeed an unconventional setup!

Before I make any other comments or suggestions, may I ask, which sources of the Essence, you use/how do you use it?

Or maybe the first question should be - is it an Essence 2nd generation?

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Garethowen
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Hi MM - Thanks for getting involved :)

It's an essence V1.

I mostly use it for spotify connect and tunein radio.  I like the essence wall remote and app and I can't see the TV from the kitchen where the beolab 3s are (so running everything through the TV and getting rid of the essence isn't really an option).

Thanks!

Gareth.

 

elephant
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elephant replied on Mon, Jun 20 2016 1:17 AM
So Gareth, is it fair to say you have created a pseudo multi room environment ?

BV and BL3s in one area / zone

Other BLs in a separate area / zone

You like to get BV sources and Essence sources playing in both zones

You want to add a sub-woofer.

Here are some ideas; where I am a little off-track I hope MM will step in and correct / clarify.

I would daisy chain the BL3s off one Essence PL (say 1). Set each BL3 to a separate stereo channel.

Buy a BL11 as it allows daisy chaining - and has to be at the front of the chain ie nearest the Essence in order to filter out the bass from the other two BLs at the back of the chain.

Daisy chain the other BLs behind the BL11 (on say Essence PL 2) and with each other.

Unfortunately you would not be able to do this with a BL19 as it does not support daisy chaining. It is best used by plugging directly into a BV's sub-woofer PL.

BeoNut since '75

Garethowen
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Thanks for this.

I actually bought a bl11 as part of the original set-up but the dealer took it back as it was rarely kicking in, saying that even the bl 12.2s were coping with most of the bass that the bl11 would have taken.
So it's time for something more powerful.
I think it will be a bl 2 that I go for (as even the dealers seem to pull that face that says it's better in their opinion than the newer 19).
The more I've read about this over the weekend, the more I suspect the ideal set-up will be to connect the bl2 directly to the essence, then use one of the out powerlink connections on the bl2 to connect to one of the 12.2s, which will daisy chain to its sister 12.2 which will daisy chain to the bl3s (as currently).
Does this sound crazy/like t could cause problems to anyone?
Thanks again - really do appreciate it.
Gareth.
Millemissen
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Honestly I have been cheewing a bit on this one - it is a tough one!

Having read the post of elephant and your last one, I am somewhat afraid that you won't get the result, that you expect, by adding a subwoofer (the 2) direct out of the Essence and daiysychaning the rest from there..

Not knowing the size and the shape of your room, I would suspect, that the effect of the subwoofer would be to little with the BL3's. It might even make them sound less bassy, because the bas is already filtered away when the PL leaves the BL2 by the 12's.

It might work - but, as I said, when one does not know your environment, it is hard to give an advice.

Another solution would be to add a subwoofer (the 2 or the 11) to each set of speakers and run one PL (from the Essence) for each speaker-setup. This would also allow you to make the settings of the subwoofers correct according to the room and placement of each set.

BUT - as an overall remark, I think that you are wasting a lot of potential (really a lot!) in your setup, if you continue on these paths. The BV11 would give you a sophisticated bas management and the opportunity to create several different speaker groups, when the speaker are connected to it. Connecting the Essence to the BV11 is absolutely possible.

Of course  it is for you to decide!

However, it would be nice to know, what the reason is for not using the BV as the hub.

MM

 

There is a tv - and there is a BV

stefan
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stefan replied on Mon, Jun 20 2016 11:37 AM

I highly recommend a BL2 for your setup. I`d connect it to the first PL out of the essence - BL3 connected to PL out of BL2, so BL2 will do the bass management. Then I`d connect the BL12 to the second PL out of the essence, in "full range" mode without a BL2 in the signal chain.

Essence - PLout1 - BL2 - BL3/L - BL3/R with Y adapter or in parallel from BL2

                  PL out2 - BL12/L - BL12/R with Y adapter

If all 4 BLs are in a single Room/zone I`d also try to connect all BLS after BL2 in the signal chain (never tried that before....).

These solutions might also solve your PL issue with the last speaker....(?)

Stefan

Garethowen
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Garethowen replied on Mon, Jun 20 2016 12:05 PM

Thanks all.

The reason for not putting everything through the tv (MM) is because I usually use the essence independently of it (I.e. I donMt want to have to turn the tv on every time I want to listen to music or the radio).
The TV and 12.2s are on a mezzanine above the kitchen which has the 3s in it.  So they're sort of all in the same room but not all at the same height.  The sub would be up in the mezzanine.
Given this, Stefan's suggestion, and MM's point about the 3s losing their bass in the set-up I was suggesting gets me thinking:
Could the solution be to connect the 3s directly to the essence and the bl2 to the other essence connection, with the 12.2s connected to the bl2 (I.e. The bl2 will filter out the bass from the speakers on the same level and those on the level below won't lose anything.
What do you think?
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stefan replied on Mon, Jun 20 2016 12:26 PM

Sure - will also work, and will make more sense in your setup, I think.

Stefan

elephant
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elephant replied on Mon, Jun 20 2016 12:34 PM
stefan:

Sure - will also work, and will make more sense in your setup, I think.

Stefan

Seems so.

Only word of warning is the BL2 has a reputation of being a good movie subwoofer, but I have read elsewhere that it is "flabby" when it comes to music.

Back to others for debate.

BeoNut since '75

Garethowen
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Just when I thought I'd got there you tell me this :)

Grrrrr!

(thanks everyone for the help though).

 

 

 

Millemissen
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I'd agree with stefan on that one.

Whether the BL2 will do the job only a test may prove!

 

Some people a concerned with power consumption or wear of their tv, which is ok.

IMO the use of the tv /the BV11 as the center of a B&O-setup (as intended from B&O) gives you much more possibilities of tuning the sound and of handling speaker groups and connected sources - not to mention the use of the BL12.2's in conjunction with the speakers of the tv for a more accurate listening experience when watching tv/movies.

 

Please let us know how you decide - and especially how the setup performes.

MM

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stefan
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stefan replied on Mon, Jun 20 2016 1:48 PM

elephant:
stefan:

 

Sure - will also work, and will make more sense in your setup, I think.

 

Stefan

 

 

Seems so.

 

 

Only word of warning is the BL2 has a reputation of being a good movie subwoofer, but I have read elsewhere that it is "flabby" when it comes to music.

 

 

Back to others for debate.

I know about that "reputation", and I don`t agree. As always, positioning is important, and the room takes a lot of influence, but after all it`s a very good speaker, and for it`s size, the best one I know.

I`m a proud owner of a BL2, that I used a lot of years for sound to picture and music in a front stereo setup with BL8000.

Years ago they had to go to rear stereo, when I got the BL5 for front L/R.

Stefan

Garethowen
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Thanks.

 

elephant
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elephant replied on Tue, Jun 21 2016 6:28 AM
Garethowen:

Thanks.

Yes you can trust Stefan 😇

BeoNut since '75

Garethowen
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Hello again.

I'm still all over the place with this big decision :)

After you (some of you) put doubt in my mind about the BL3 I'm now considering a 19 (was always my first choice aesthetically anyway :)

The easiest way to add one of these would be:

- Connect the bola 19 into one of the essence's PL sockets

- Connect one of the 12.2s to the other essence PL socket

- Daisy chain the second 12.2 from the first 12.2

- Daisy chain the bolab 3s from the second 12.2 (with a splitter)

Simple?

But then some guy in a B&O shop (possible expert, possible chancer) told me that daisy chaining was a bad idea as it weakened the signal/would cause issues.

Is this true, or is my genius (joking) daisy chaining idea above going to work/be fine?

Thanks again!

Gareth.

 

Millemissen
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I'd say, that it depends on the lenght of the cables.

MM

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Garethowen
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Thanks MM.

The longest is 10 meters (I think).

 

elephant
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elephant replied on Tue, Jun 21 2016 9:08 PM
I have used standard length B&O cables to daisy chain for years and not had a problem.

Make sure to use the correct version - I once had non-Mark 3 cables in the wrong part of the chain and got hiss - so I swapped a NL 1 link for a NL 3 link and voila hiss gone.

And as it was me 😈 that sowed the seed about the BL2 which I have never owned I urge you to listen to Stefan 😇 who has

BeoNut since '75

Garethowen
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Thanks :)

Duels
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Duels replied on Tue, Jun 21 2016 9:25 PM
Millemissen:

I'd say, that it depends on the lenght of the cables.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Sounds like a job for Steve@sounds heavenly.
leosgonewild
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Thinking about the thickness of the cable, there shouldn't be much signal loss.

But wouldn't you be better if with a subwoofer with powerlink sockets out?

"You think we can slap some oak on this thing?"

Garethowen
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Yeah, I'm planning to get one with power link sockets (bola 2 or 19) but I don't have enough spare sockets in the essence for 2 sets of speakers + the sub, so would be daisy chaining the speakers to each other and giving the other essence port to the sub.

 

stefan
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stefan replied on Thu, Jun 23 2016 1:02 PM

leosgonewild:
Thinking about the thickness of the cable, there shouldn't be much signal loss.

I`d measure voltage on PIN4 Powerlink right before the last BL in the row.

leosgonewild:

But wouldn't you be better if with a subwoofer with powerlink sockets out?

Absolutely!

Stefan

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stefan replied on Thu, Jun 23 2016 1:24 PM

I have not much experience with BL19 (I listened to it in "my" Beo store long time ago, but I wasn`t really interested, because I have BL2 and BL5..

That`s why I read the BL19 manual right now, with specs - Beo`s documents are really ridiculous, especially the "specs" ...! - and I couldn`t believe it, you are right: BL19 has no Powerlink out!...which normally means, no bassmanagement, just a low pass filter for the sub....(!?)

Before you take any decision, I highly recommend to read the manuals - and "specs" - of all three subs in the Beo-lineup - BL2, 11, 19.

And maybe you want to ask yourself, why they provide the BL2/11 manuals for every single language, and why is a "multilanguage manual" for the 19 sufficient...

And if you decide for the 19, connect the speakers to your Beovision and let the BV do the bass management.

BTW: the BL2/11 manuals describe, how to install the speakers in a stereo setup (like yours) and in a multichannel setup with LFE channel.

Stefan

 

Garethowen
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Yes, the B&O manuals are hilariously useless (a cynic might say so that you have to pay them to do the install!).

 

 

 

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