ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
BeoNut since '75
elephant:http://www.macrumors.com/2016/07/20/deezer-music-service-launches-us/
Deezer is too late. I tried it for about 5 days and then cancelled. Its nothing special. Nobody here knows Deezer exists. The same thing is going to happen to Qobuz.
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
Razlaw:I have had Deezer Elite for several weeks. I like it very much. I will be cancelling my Spotify subscription in all probability as I never listen to it anymore.
Much much better. I wanted to check and see if it was my imagination or if it really did sound that much better. I had my girlfriend listen to each without telling her which was which. It only took about a minute of listening to each before she selected Deezer as sounding much better.
You did activate the Elite subscription on your Sonos device right?
Is it working 100 % when you use it on Moment and the Beomusic app.?
Normann: Razlaw:I have had Deezer Elite for several weeks. I like it very much. I will be cancelling my Spotify subscription in all probability as I never listen to it anymore. You did activate the Elite subscription on your Sonos device right? Is it working 100 % when you use it on Moment and the Beomusic app.?
Yes, but I do not have a Moment. I have an Essence connected to the Aux In of my Beosound 3000 and a Beoplay V1. After signing up through the Sonos, I was able to use the same log in info to log in to both the Essence and the V1. While I am able to play Deezer directly through the Essence or the V1, I find I use the Sonos (which is connected to the line in of the Essence) most frequently. I like the Deezer app a bit more than the Beomusic app for selecting music. All I have to do is select aux in on the Beo 4 and then use the Sonos app to select the music. I do not have to use the Beomusic app at all if I am controlling the music with the Sonos app.
Razlaw:Much much better. I wanted to check and see if it was my imagination or if it really did sound that much better. I had my girlfriend listen to each without telling her which was which. It only took about a minute of listening to each before she selected Deezer as sounding much better.
I think the more you listen to it and the more different music you listen to, the more you will notice the improvement.
Razlaw: Much much better. I wanted to check and see if it was my imagination or if it really did sound that much better. I had my girlfriend listen to each without telling her which was which. It only took about a minute of listening to each before she selected Deezer as sounding much better.
Even half a dB of level mismatch can cause that, not counting what if any compression, level adjustments, or other EQ the sources put on the music. Doing proper tests is very hard, the human brain is a remarkable sponge capable of latching onto an amazing number of things other than sound quality.
But if you "think" it sounds better than it will, and if it makes you happy, then it makes you happy, doesn't really matter what the reason is.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff: Razlaw: Much much better. I wanted to check and see if it was my imagination or if it really did sound that much better. I had my girlfriend listen to each without telling her which was which. It only took about a minute of listening to each before she selected Deezer as sounding much better. Even half a dB of level mismatch can cause that, not counting what if any compression, level adjustments, or other EQ the sources put on the music. Doing proper tests is very hard, the human brain is a remarkable sponge capable of latching onto an amazing number of things other than sound quality. But if you "think" it sounds better than it will, and if it makes you happy, then it makes you happy, doesn't really matter what the reason is.
Why is is so difficult to believe that it sounds better? Do you doubt that someone can hear a difference between Beolab 5s and Beolab 4000s?
Or that someone can hear the difference between Beolab 9s and Beolab 1s?
How may posts have there been on Beoworld asking which of two speakers sounds better? What is the most common answer? Listen for yourself and decide with your own ears.
Perhaps I should sell my Beolab 20s, Beolab 9s, and Beolab 1s because I must only "think" they sound better than my Beolab 4000s and Beolab 6000s.
Or maybe I should sell my Beolab 6000s and Beolab 4000s and replace the with Beoplay A1s as I only "think" Beolabs sound better than an A1?
Obviously that is not the case. I "know" that my Beolab 20s, Beolab 9s, and Beolab 1s sound better than my Beolab 4000s and Beolab 6000s.
I also "know" that Deezer lossless sounds better than Spotify.
The problem is that differences between speakers are gross differences, due to a variety of factors: efficiency, max loudness ability, power response, frequency response, resonances, etc. Differences between electronics and music depending on bit rate are extremely subtle if they exist at all. It's like saying, how can you say this sparkling water doesn't taste much different than that one? Beer tastes much different than wine!
The literature is full of carefully controlled tests of electronics and different bit rate/bit depth kinds of music storage, and the ability to tell the difference in carefully controlled tests doesn't give much confidence in what a lot of people claim about differences. I personally have done numerous, properly controlled tests, and have seen how myself personally and my allegedly golden earred friends have failed miserably to detect differences that in sighted, unblinded, uncontrolled tests they claimed were "Night and Day" or "Even my wife could tell the difference!"
A while back when I lived in a town with an audio club, I got tired of hearing the "My ears are soooooo sensitive I run screaming from the room if an MP3 or such is put on!" So finally, I let several of the more vocal bit rate snobs as I called them pick a a track they were sure would show the differences, and prepared discs for them. First the raw wav file off the CD, then a file encoded using Apple's AAC encoder, chosen because I had iTunes, it's a common encoder these days, and it is a particularly good example of lossy encoders, and then I selected by flipping a coin what order the next 10 tracks would be, wave, or lossy codec. Out of over 10 people who did the test, using their preferred music, not one of them did better than random chance. I've seen the same in published tests using Hi Def files.
In fact, many of the files that claim to be Hi Def are just upsampled wav files, which is almost as big a ripoff as green pens and such for CDs. At least the green edges look pretty! Back in the day when Sony was pushing SACD it was found that, one, the two layers of the disc, wav and SACD, were recorded at very different levels, making direct comparison very difficult for the average user. Two, they were found to not be the same files, additional equalization had been done to the SACD files, so you weren't hearing the sonic improvements of SACD, you were hearing the sonic improvements of remastering and re-equalizing the music!
So, I have reasons for my views on all of this, but as I said, if you feel happy, even if it's just a placebo effect, I don't care, be happy! But when people try and pass off preferences (which are impossible to deny) as irrefutable fact, that's when I get annoyed and such.
Jeff:But when people try and pass off preferences (which are impossible to deny) as irrefutable fact, that's when I get annoyed and such.
So is your post specifying your preference or is it an irrefutable fact?
Mark-N: Jeff:But when people try and pass off preferences (which are impossible to deny) as irrefutable fact, that's when I get annoyed and such. So is your post specifying your preference or is it an irrefutable fact?
Ha! Touche'! But, I didn't express a preference, but the view based on empirical testing about the likelihood that such a difference actually exists! But I hardly ever see someone who believes an audible difference exists who presents their opinions as preferences, it's always "there's a huge difference and you're deaf if you don't hear it" or some such. You'll note I always say if you prefer it, and think it matters, fine by me.
What I don't really understand is when you just even mildly point this out as my initial comment did, people act like you were clubbing baby seals or drowning puppies in front of them! Such hysterical reactions at times. I've seen and been involved in these types of arguments for more decades than I care to remember. I started out fully believing such differences existed, and it was indeed a "road to Damascus" kind of moment when I realized how easily the human ear can be fooled.
I've noticed that, say, with an optical illusion, this line is longer than that, if you hold a ruler up to the lines, everyone will say, "huh, I would have sworn they weren't the same length! Neat illusion!" But, if you do the same with an audio test, say showing them that the differences between their super duper wire and regular zip cord is non-existent, they immediately attack the test, and you, your parentage, ethics, intelligence, etc. This huge difference I swore I heard was obscured by the test! So, which is it? The difference is enormous, or it's so subtle it disappears if you do a controlled test. Why are people's apparent self image and such so wrapped up in something as inconsequential as audio? I've never quite understood it.
Well said!
Razlaw: Mark-N: Jeff:But when people try and pass off preferences (which are impossible to deny) as irrefutable fact, that's when I get annoyed and such. So is your post specifying your preference or is it an irrefutable fact? Well said!
Way to completely miss the entire point...
My preference is AIF files for my music, and I am completely comforable with that decision, even if people think I am completely nuts for my decision.
I have to wonder though, if people get this defensive in protecting their decision, they *need* for nothing better to exist.
People can conduct any kind of research they want to prove what they want to believe. You can't expect the rest of the world to respect that though.
I respect Geoff Martin and his ear because I think that B&O speakers sound great! If he were to come out and say definitively that there is no difference in MP3 and AIFF I would probably respect that conclusion from him... but I wouldn't be down converting my library, and I wouldn't change my rip settings!
This is a very polarizing topic, so I would never expect Geoff to weigh in on this!
Jeff: So, I have reasons for my views on all of this, but as I said, if you feel happy, even if it's just a placebo effect, I don't care, be happy! But when people try and pass off preferences (which are impossible to deny) as irrefutable fact, that's when I get annoyed and such.
My apologies that you are so annoyed when somebody can have an opinion different than yours.
However I also get annoyed when somebody casts aspersions at my ability to to discern a difference between two things, one of which I have listened to for years and the other which I have listened to for countless hours over a several week period. Also your effort to diminish and ridicule my opinion by calling it a "placebo" or that it is only something I "think" I hear is insulting.
And just to clarify, the difference is not minor of subtle or anything like that. It is immediately and continuously noticeable. Obviously you do not believe that and I am sure that is based upon you having spent countless hours listening to both and forming your own opinion. Oops...my mistake. Your post is devoid of any mention of you personally having listened to Deezer Elite and Spotify for many hours and having compared them. Instead you have nothing but anecdotal arguments to disagree with someone's opinion of something you have never experienced, or at least chose not to mention having experienced, other than in vague mentions of tests.
And thank you for falling back on the old argument of "there is much literature" while failing to cite even one such piece of literature. And even if you had been able to cite one specific piece of literature, I am sure another piece with a contrary conclusion could also be cited. For example it only took me a couple of minutes to find the following article from What HiFi. Take a look at the sentence just before the Verdict. Of course I am sure you will think that the article is just referring to a "placebo."
http://www.whathifi.com/deezer/review
True, it doesn't pay for someone like Geoff to take public positions on controversial issues, all that can do is hurt business. But, do you think the Audio Engineering Society goes into these tests and biases them for a preferred outcome? Do you think when I did controlled testing myself when I believed in such differences I deliberately biased them to make me look deaf? Further, do you suggest that I am so wedded to proving something inaudible that I deliberately tricked my friends in making up their test CDs, when the truth is I would have loved to be proven wrong? At the very least I'd have gotten another paper published to add to my list of publications!
Jeff:True, it doesn't pay for someone like Geoff to take public positions on controversial issues, all that can do is hurt business. But, do you think the Audio Engineering Society goes into these tests and biases them for a preferred outcome? Do you think when I did controlled testing myself when I believed in such differences I deliberately biased them to make me look deaf? Further, do you suggest that I am so wedded to proving something inaudible that I deliberately tricked my friends in making up their test CDs, when the truth is I would have loved to be proven wrong? At the very least I'd have gotten another paper published to add to my list of publications! Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
Oh FFS razlaw! If I listed a ton of publications, based on your reactions, which are exactly the kind of response I've seen hundreds of times, it would make no difference to you. I've never seen it happen yet. And what you haul out as a "see there, told you!' kind of thing is the same kind of nonsensical rambling from a SUBJECTIVE REVIEW by a publication that, funny thing, exists to publish SUBJECTIVE REVIEWS! Quite a shocker, their comment about 320kbs "glare" proves it.
If you calm down and note, I at first only mentioned that there are plenty of reasons having nothing to do with how things actually sound that are perceived as sonic differences. You then flew off into hysterics about how well, that must mean BL4000s sound just like BL5s! I explained the differences, and you are still hysterical. And I'm getting my usual level of frustration with people in the audio world. You will note I said your preference is that, a preference. Here's a hint, a controlled listening test designed to test for differences is NOT a preference, it's a fact. Do you hear a difference? Maybe, without a blinded level matched test it's absolutely impossible to tell one, if it really exists outside of your mind, and two what the cause is. But if you hear a difference and enjoy it, I don't care! But you were answering a question about such differences, so my views on it are just as valuable to the discussion as yours.
And with that, I'll bow out of this conversation. This generally is a forum devoid of this kind of argument, as usually people who buy B&O worry little about such things and just enjoy music without the hair pulling that goes with the "High End" community, and I think that's good.
So, believe whatever makes your heart happy, but I will feel free to interject my technical observations at times when I feel like it. As for references, do your own homework. I'm not about to list papers just so you can shoot them down by posting yet another link to a worthless subjective listening test.
Jeff: True, it doesn't pay for someone like Geoff to take public positions on controversial issues, all that can do is hurt business. But, do you think the Audio Engineering Society goes into these tests and biases them for a preferred outcome? Do you think when I did controlled testing myself when I believed in such differences I deliberately biased them to make me look deaf? Further, do you suggest that I am so wedded to proving something inaudible that I deliberately tricked my friends in making up their test CDs, when the truth is I would have loved to be proven wrong? At the very least I'd have gotten another paper published to add to my list of publications!
I'm just saying that you can't expect everyone to rally around the results that you concluded. Also I am not so insecure in my decisions that I have to go and find out what the Audio Engineering Society thinks.
For those who believe they can hear a difference between different audio formats I say good for them! For those who believe they can't hear a difference between diffferent audio formats I say good for them!
Jeff: Oh FFS razlaw! If I listed a ton of publications, based on your reactions, which are exactly the kind of response I've seen hundreds of times, it would make no difference to you. I've never seen it happen yet. And what you haul out as a "see there, told you!' kind of thing is the same kind of nonsensical rambling from a SUBJECTIVE REVIEW by a publication that, funny thing, exists to publish SUBJECTIVE REVIEWS! Quite a shocker, their comment about 320kbs "glare" proves it. If you calm down and note, I at first only mentioned that there are plenty of reasons having nothing to do with how things actually sound that are perceived as sonic differences. You then flew off into hysterics about how well, that must mean BL4000s sound just like BL5s! I explained the differences, and you are still hysterical. And I'm getting my usual level of frustration with people in the audio world. You will note I said your preference is that, a preference. Here's a hint, a controlled listening test designed to test for differences is NOT a preference, it's a fact. Do you hear a difference? Maybe, without a blinded level matched test it's absolutely impossible to tell one, if it really exists outside of your mind, and two what the cause is. But if you hear a difference and enjoy it, I don't care! But you were answering a question about such differences, so my views on it are just as valuable to the discussion as yours. And with that, I'll bow out of this conversation. This generally is a forum devoid of this kind of argument, as usually people who buy B&O worry little about such things and just enjoy music without the hair pulling that goes with the "High End" community, and I think that's good. So, believe whatever makes your heart happy, but I will feel free to interject my technical observations at times when I feel like it. As for references, do your own homework. I'm not about to list papers just so you can shoot them down by posting yet another link to a worthless subjective listening test.
- well done Jeff, you got to the same end much quicker than I did with the same argument a few weeks ago!
Why bother with science when its quicker and easier just to burn a witch!
Ban boring signatures!
Mark-N: Jeff: True, it doesn't pay for someone like Geoff to take public positions on controversial issues, all that can do is hurt business. But, do you think the Audio Engineering Society goes into these tests and biases them for a preferred outcome? Do you think when I did controlled testing myself when I believed in such differences I deliberately biased them to make me look deaf? Further, do you suggest that I am so wedded to proving something inaudible that I deliberately tricked my friends in making up their test CDs, when the truth is I would have loved to be proven wrong? At the very least I'd have gotten another paper published to add to my list of publications! I'm just saying that you can't expect everyone to rally around the results that you concluded. Also I am not so insecure in my decisions that I have to go and find out what the Audio Engineering Society thinks. For those who believe they can hear a difference between different audio formats I say good for them! For those who believe they can't hear a difference between diffferent audio formats I say good for them!
Insecurity has nothing to do with it for me, more like a desire to actually understand what was going on. Having had my nose rubbed in my inability to hear things that I was sure I heard before, I grew interested in the whole area of objective testing, particularly for audio. I could easily have retreated into the "nah, I don't believe it" realm most audiophiles seem to retreat to when they encounter something similar, but that's not who I am. And I still try and test my views with listening tests. I tested myself by doing similar CDs with tracks in a variety of different bit rates, and am pretty familiar with the kinds of artifacts lower bit rates can introduce.
And I didn't say anything other than that there can be different reasons something might sound different that have, and usually does, have nothing to do with bit rate, but that's suddenly controversial? Or insinuating someone is deaf? I even said, if you like it fine, I for one find the real differences fascinating, but then as I've been a scientist and systems analyst/engineer for about 4 decades, that's what I love to study.
As I said, this is all I'm going to say about this, it's not worth my time. E. Brad Meyer, who was president of the Boston Audio Society, once said these kinds of arguments made him "rigid with ennui" and I feel the same, which is why I no longer hang out on most audio forums!
Puncher: - well done Jeff, you got to the same end much quicker than I did with the same argument a few weeks ago! Why bother with science when its quicker and easier just to burn a witch!
She turned me into a newt!...I got better.
So more personal insults, now I am hysterical
And still not one single study cited despite your claimed reliance on them.
Enough said.
+1
Jeff: Mark-N: Jeff: And I didn't say anything other than that there can be different reasons something might sound different that have, and usually does, have nothing to do with bit rate, but that's suddenly controversial?
Mark-N: Jeff:
Jeff:
And I didn't say anything other than that there can be different reasons something might sound different that have, and usually does, have nothing to do with bit rate, but that's suddenly controversial?
Yes you did say something other than that. You said what I hear is only what I "think" I hear and that it is just a "placebo".
Had you only said what your claim to have said, this topic would have ended several posts ago. But instead you had to demean my ability to listen and discern differences and resort to calling me "hysterical"'
Razlaw: Jeff: Mark-N: Jeff: And I didn't say anything other than that there can be different reasons something might sound different that have, and usually does, have nothing to do with bit rate, but that's suddenly controversial? Yes you did say something other than that. You said what I hear is only what I "think" I hear and that it is just a "placebo". Had you only said what your claim to have said, this topic would have ended several posts ago. But instead you had to demean my ability to listen and discern differences and resort to calling me "hysterical"'
QED.
Puncher: Razlaw: Jeff: Mark-N: Jeff: And I didn't say anything other than that there can be different reasons something might sound different that have, and usually does, have nothing to do with bit rate, but that's suddenly controversial? Yes you did say something other than that. You said what I hear is only what I "think" I hear and that it is just a "placebo". Had you only said what your claim to have said, this topic would have ended several posts ago. But instead you had to demean my ability to listen and discern differences and resort to calling me "hysterical"' QED.
Condoning personal insults and name calling? How sad.
When your argument requires personal attacks, you've already lost.
Mark-N: When your argument requires personal attacks, you've already lost.
One man has been discussing a scientific approach to identifying real differences in what you hear while another has taken this as a personal affront because he's certain he likes deezer better than spotify.
The really sad thing is the first guy even acknowledged this but merely suggested some other reasons why it might be audible different.
Only one guy here takes it personally!
You read a passage and take it one way. Another person can read the same passage and feel there is a certain "tone" to the passage that feels like an attack. Just because you take one interpretation of the passage, you can't expect everyone to interpret it in the same context. If you feel a personal attack is inferred, then it doesn't matter what the remaining argumenti is presented. It is ignored.
Puncher:One man has been discussing a scientific approach to identifying real differences in what you hear while another has taken this as a personal affront because he's certain he likes deezer better than spotify.
I have been involved in the same argument in the past and it does get pretty passionate, especially if you are defending the "lesser" format if one is presented as such. I guess that is to be expected here. We are listening to music on very expensive equipment, and we all want the best experience possible from it. Some will convince themselves that their source is the best available and defend it to the death... even if they have to make up credentials to support it. This is a mostly anonymous forum, and nobody *really* knows my credentials. The only person that I know on this forum that is not anonymous and has established credentials is probably Geoff Martin (his credentials for fountain pens is well known! )
Don't expect everyone to bow to you just because you say to have 8 decades of experience in a field, and conducted your own tests. Those who agree will certainly bow...
Mark-N: You read a passage and take it one way. Another person can read the same passage and feel there is a certain "tone" to the passage that feels like an attack. Just because you take one interpretation of the passage, you can't expect everyone to interpret it in the same context. If you feel a personal attack is inferred, then it doesn't matter what the remaining argumenti is presented. It is ignored.
Solipsism generally is incompatible with logic and rationality it seems.
Puncher:There have been no "personal attacks" this ia an internet forum not a western bar room! One man has been discussing a scientific approach to identifying real differences in what you hear while another has taken this as a personal affront because he's certain he likes deezer better than spotify. The really sad thing is the first guy even acknowledged this but merely suggested some other reasons why it might be audible different. Only one guy here takes it personally! Ban boring signatures!