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I know this has been discussed before, and I think I know what the answer will be, but maybe there are some new thoughts.
I have a BV7-55 with a 7-4, 9s in front, and 3s 4000s in rear. I want ALT all around so am interested in buying some new speakers.
I typically do not listen to volumes much above in the 50s although occasionally might turn it up to 62-64.
Doing a cost benefit analysis, where would I get the most improvement for the money spent?
option 1 new 5s in front, 9s move to rear
option 2, second pair of 9s, s 9s all around
option 3, 3s in the rear.
Thanks for any opinions.
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
I'd say option 3
The calibration thing in the 5's is mostly just mumbo-jumbo that doesn't work that good, usually ending up sounding to thin.
The biggest difference between the 5's and the 9's has to be the bass output/total output( can play louder) and the looks.
Surround channels usually don't need that much output, so the 9s in the back would be a bit of an overkill I believe.
Having owned the BL5s, BL9s (two pairs) and BL3s, I've found the BL3s to be the best all-round speakers for most average sized rooms, for most scenarios (music and movies). They'd be fantastic as rears. I notice my local dealer uses BL5s as fronts and BL3s as rears, for example.
The BL5s are superb speakers. When mine first arrived, they'd been calibrated previously and were amazing. As soon as I calibrated them for my room (wooden floor, sash windows), they were never the same again! Also, as I live in a large apartment, there's no way I have the space nor the ability to play BL5s as they should be utilised. So, they were replaced with BL9s.
Personally, I'd go with BL9s at the front, BL3s at the back. I was always impressed with the BL9s when used with my BV7, particularly for movies.
I think 3's were the concensus last time you asked this question too.
Ban boring signatures!
Razlaw: option 1 new 5s in front, 9s move to rear option 2, second pair of 9s, s 9s all around option 3, 3s in the rear.
Nice dilemma.
Some thoughts ... rather than crisp advice.
Everyone, including Moxxey despite his experience, agree the BL5s are superb - so if you can afford it why not go option 1 ?
If on the other hand you want a balanced look and performance then clearly option 2 is the answer.
Since I am somewhat budget constrained I am personally likely to end up at option 3.
BeoNut since '75
I wholeheratedly agree.
No sub...at least from what's currently available.
B
Barry
elephant: Everyone, including Moxxey despite his experience, agree the BL5s are superb - so if you can afford it why not go option 1 ?
No, that's not what I said! I didn't say "they aren't superb", I said that they are a) overkill in the average room (they are huge speakers), b) that it's not easy to calibrate them unless you have a large room and solid floor and, assuming you have a/b), then c) if you live near your neighbours, such as an apartment or similar, you can't play them as BL5s were designed to be played.
That's very very different from saying they aren't superb. Clearly they are, but they are also very expensive, unless you can use them to their potential. If you have the money and space, go for 5s in every situation.
However, most people do not have the space, so BL9s as fronts and BL3s as rears would be better for most day to day scenarios.
It's very easy - and lazy - to simply say "BL5s are superb, get them". If they are the only answers we're seeking, there's no need for the original question, either :)
Let me explain a bit differently...
I bought my BL5s and was initially impressed. After about 6 months, stupidly I calibrated them for the room. They were never the same again. Somewhat muted. Problem with the BL5s, as they are completely digital, you can't override the settings. With the BL9s, you have the pot settings, which are manually controlled. It's much easier to setup the BL9s to be effective in an average room - let's be fair here, the BL9s are large speakers. Much larger than most people will ever require.
With this in mind, I found that I could never really utilise the BL5s to their original potential. BL9s were much better as you can manually tweak the pot settings. Combine the BL9s at the front, alt-based BL3s at the rear (you won't need a sub as the BL9s are good enough) and you have a superb setup.
I found the BL9s can "out perform" the BL5s for many users as you can manually configure them to be more bassy than BL5 calibration will allow. Calibration on the BL5s is automated and, as I say above, calibrates to your room size, furniture and floor. If you have an average room, with a large sofa and wooden (not solid) flooring, you may find you can push the BL9s further as the BL5s will calibrate to a safer level which doesn't override the room. Pre-calibration, I found the BL5s so powerful, that they would rattle my sash windows, even at a low volume level.
100% agree with moxxey,my dad had lab 5s in a large open plan room with high ceilings connected to a linn klimax ds,and sounded awesome,he then moved them into a smaller room for movies and music, calibrated them.They never sounded the same, bass was lighter and not as full.
He then changed them for lab9s front and lab 3s rear and it sounds good with a lab 2 and 7.4.in that room now.
He has linn klimax 350p speakers in the main room now,which are another level to the 5s,but a different price range with the amps.
It shows how good value lab 5s are, as the amps are included and are halve the price of the linn speakers.
just my 2 cents
Room size and design seems critical to the 5s. My room is about 15 feet wide and 17 feet long. Speakers on fifteen foot wall. Floor is carpeted and ceiling is 9 foot. At the back of the room the opening is 10 feet wide and opens into a kitchen area with tile floor, with the back wall being 34 feet from the wall the 5s would be on. Would cabinets, granite counters.
So, good or bad for the 5s?
moxxey: elephant: Everyone, including Moxxey despite his experience, agree the BL5s are superb - so if you can afford it why not go option 1 ? No, that's not what I said! I didn't say "they aren't superb", I said that they are a) overkill in the average room (they are huge speakers), b) that it's not easy to calibrate them unless you have a large room and solid floor and, assuming you have a/b), then c) if you live near your neighbours, such as an apartment or similar, you can't play them as BL5s were designed to be played. That's very very different from saying they aren't superb. Clearly they are, but they are also very expensive, unless you can use them to their potential. If you have the money and space, go for 5s in every situation. However, most people do not have the space, so BL9s as fronts and BL3s as rears would be better for most day to day scenarios. It's very easy - and lazy - to simply say "BL5s are superb, get them". If they are the only answers we're seeking, there's no need for the original question, either :)
Maybe it's the use of double negatives, in my post, but here is the sentence you posted:
moxxey: The BL5s are superb speakers.
The BL5s are superb speakers.
I agree that you then added caveats about your room and how they changed once they were calibrated.
But you did start with the simple statement:
And I was agreeing with you.
Depends How Hot is wife is, That is the most ridiculous setup I ever heard of....
Depends How Hot is wife is, That is the most ridiculous setup I ever heard of....?
What are you on about
Well big rooms usually are good as long as there not to live sounding.
Given the fact that you have carpentered floor, then that shouldn't be a problem.
Easiest way is to listen to a par of 9s at the dealer and compare them to the ones you have home, that way you should know how the room "sounds".
Then try to listen to a pair of 5s at the same dealer and compare.
Razlaw:Dealer is bringing a pair of 5s to my house on the 13th. Hopefully that makes the decision easy for me, whether it is yes to the 5s or no to the 5s.
I would simply mention, that both Dolby Digital and DTS specs call for matched, full bandwidth (20hz - 20khz) speakers all around in a 5.1 or 7.1 setup, and that each channel must be capable of an output of 105db, played simultaneously.
That's far more demanding than what's required for a two channel music only setup.
For movies, it's permissible to have a compromise in the rear channels, with bandwidth and SPL limited speakers, crossing over to the mains re bass-redirection at 80hz.
For multi-channel music, this compromise is not recommended - the speakers must be full bandwidth capable and matched all around.
Note the use of the word 'compromise', for indeed that is exactly what it is.
Personally, I don't like using bandwidth compromised speakers as rears, as you loose the stereo effect of low bass in the rear, with it all being sent either to the fronts, or to a sub at the front of the room. However, I also appreciate that for price and space considerations, this is a compromise many of us have to make.
My local dealer is an ex audiophool, like me, and he has three pairs of Lab 5's in an 7 channel configuration along with a projector/screen in his home, as he is an avid movie fan, and like me, dislikes compromises in either sound or picture.
But I appreciate that many of us don't have the space or financial wherewithal to do that - apparently he took out another mortgage on his house!
I'd love to own a system like that, for they are rare - most of us either choose, or have to compromise, and never realise what it is we're missing!
Kind regards
John...
Beoboiinoz: Personally, I don't like using bandwidth compromised speakers as rears, as you loose the stereo effect of low bass in the rear, with it all being sent either to the fronts, or to a sub at the front of the room. However, I also appreciate that for price and space considerations, this is a compromise many of us have to make.
Razlaw: Beoboiinoz: Personally, I don't like using bandwidth compromised speakers as rears, as you loose the stereo effect of low bass in the rear, with it all being sent either to the fronts, or to a sub at the front of the room. However, I also appreciate that for price and space considerations, this is a compromise many of us have to make. Based on that, would you recommend four Beolab 9s instead of Beolab 5s in front and Beolab 9s in the rear? I did not know there was a reason, or standard, to have all the same, but I do like the symmetry four 9s would provide.
Based on that, would you recommend four Beolab 9s instead of Beolab 5s in front and Beolab 9s in the rear?
I did not know there was a reason, or standard, to have all the same, but I do like the symmetry four 9s would provide.
Notwithstanding that everyone has given you excellent advice
Speaking personally, I would have four Lab 5's all round if it was feasible - putting aide room issues others have mentioned, for a no compromise approach.
Failing that, I would have two Lab 5's in front, and two Lab 9's as rears.
The reason is, that yes, the Lab 9's would cross over the very low bass to the Lab 5's.
However, depending upon what the factory has deemed ideal re a crossover point for that speaker combination, as would be preset in the logic table for bass management in your surround sound processor, the cross-over point may be considerably lower than 80hz, to optimise the Lab 9's as much as possible. Certainly you would in all likelihood hear much more low bass from the stereo rears with Lab 9's than with Lab 3's for instance - both in terms of bandwidth and amplitude.
The other very important advantage IMV to using Lab 5's as fronts, over Lab 9's is that they each contain what could be argued to be a state of the art subwoofer thrown in 'for free'.
In all high end movie setups I've ever heard, or read about, stereo subs are de-riguer.
It's true that the .1 or LFE channel of a 5.1 or 7.1 setup is mono, as it is also true that it can go exceedingly low, to around 10hz or so. This is to provide true infrasonics, where you don't so much hear, as feel the sound, to give an atmosphere of menace etc in a movie, or to create suspense etc.
The heavy hitters in the high end audio world as regards subs at the top tier of performance for movies, include the likes of the JL Audio Fathom F13, the Velodyne DD18 etc, and it is fair to say that the Lab 5's are one of the truly few high end loudspeakers that can compete with these industry heavyweights when it comes to bass ability as regards extension into true infrasonics, played at very low distortion and with the amplitude levels required for Dolby specs.
A Beolab 2, whilst a very good sub, simply is not in the same performance league as the 15' drivers in the Lab 5's, or the afore mentioned JL Audio Fathom and Velodyne in this regard.
Also, as well as the ultra low frequency .LFE effects, very low bass, such as around 20hz or so, will play in stereo, rather than mono, which would be the case if you were to couple a Beolab 2 with Lab 9's at the front for instance, so as to add extra depth and reach in the sound to cater for LFE.
Whilst you may not readily hear frequencies around 20hz, there is ample documented evidence to show that stereo low bass, over mono low bass, offers a very worthwhile gain in reproducing the ambiance from halls, and the recording venue etc, and with it the sense of air and space in the sound.
And for music use, as well as movies, the Lab 5's will offer the best of both worlds, that a Lab 9 in conjunction with a Lab 2, effecitvely cant.
On one hand the Lab 2 won't do LFE anywhere near as effecitvely as the Lab 5s, and for music the Lab 5 will give you bass reach and extension that only the Lab 2 could hope to match to some degree - yet it is not as clean re a fast transient response in the low bass like the Lab 9, which in turn doesn't have the low bass reach/extension of the Lab 5.
Really, if money is not the question, and there is sufficient physical space, I could see no reason NOT to go with a Lab 5 solution for the fronts.
After all, they are B&O's current best loudspeaker, and arguablly one of the finest available in the world.
If I had the money, I'd buy them in a heartbeat, and certainly would heartily recommend them in your situation for the reasons I've attempted to outline; hopefully with clarity and in a manner that assists rather than confuses.
I hope this helps in some way...
Kind Regards
Thank you very much. Very logical and good explanation/opinion.
John: Speaking personally, I would have four Lab 5's all round if it was feasible - putting aide room issues others have mentioned, for a no compromise approach.
The room Razlaw describes above isn't large. Indeed, it's smaller than the room I had my BL5 (which was 18ft high). For me, the other downside was that the BL5s dominated the room and I wasn't comfortable with that. Sure I wanted great speakers, but I don't want them to be the focal point of the room.
One of the reasons Scandinavians are so good at design is that they believe "less is more" and not "brash is best" :)
Also where do you buy 5.1 or 7.1 music?? SACD was a complete fail, and listening to normal stereo recordings on a surround system just isn't the same as your are at the mercy of your audio processor!
While I understand what John is saying I really think a "5's all round" system is something you only ever do when you've completely run out of other things to do with your money!
Puncher: Also where do you buy 5.1 or 7.1 music?? SACD was a complete fail, and listening to normal stereo recordings on a surround system just isn't the same as your are at the mercy of your audio processor! While I understand what John is saying I really think a "5's all round" system is something you only ever do when you've completely run out of other things to do with your money!
I accept that Lab 5's all round is something you'd do when you have nothing else to do with your money, (but I could think of worse things to spend it on... lol) and also agree with Moxxeys comments as regards the room etc. At the end of the day, it's a balance of compromises that best suit a particular user - and their environmental situation and financial wherewithal.. :-) I guess I'm just vocalising the idealist approach.
I agree that SACD was a commercial failure as far as mainstream acceptance was/is concerned.
However there are over 4,500 titles available worldwide - wherever possible I buy new classical and jazz recordings in SACD, as my ES 91000 Sony player outputs DSD over iLink (IEEE 1394) also commonly called Firewire, and the amp, which is Class D, pure digital, literally processes DSD re it's modus operandi, so it is a digital DSD stream from disc to loudspeaker output terminals.
Personally, I find discrete multi-channel SACD far superior to two channel CD when it comes to believability and realism as regards that concert hall presentation.
Certainly, my Sony Bluray player can play multi-channel SACD's and output the audio as either DSD or PCM over HDMI.
Given that the processor in the V1 handles multi-channel PCM, I'm very confident that I'd be able to play my existing collection of hybrid SACD's in this manner, once I get some B&O speakers to go with it.
At least, that's the goal as regards my SACD's - my 'regular' CD's I'll stream from my Mac via an latest generation Apple TV.
Razlaw:The difference in sound in my system with Beolab 1s as rears compared to 4000s is amazing.
There's a HUGE difference between the 1's and the 4000s. Less of a step between 9s and 5s though, unless you really intend to push the 5s hard. The primary difference is that the 5s simply take up far more space in the room - they'd dwarf my BV10-46, for example.
Basically the 9s were a replacement for the 1s, so using 1s is like 9s as rears (although without the alts).
I currently have 5s up front with 3s in the back.
I did have the chance to audition 9s.
NO QUESTION go for 5s in the front.
the rears get a LOT MORE sound than you'd think. .. and the increased 'experience' in movies
is dramatic.
I would pick up 9s for my surrounds today if I could get my hands on some.
and. when you listen to music with 9s in the rear and choose 4 speakers the difference is VERY noticeable!
5s all the way!!!!
My comment was directed at this setup....
At this point I think I have narrowed it down to either the 9s or the 5s.
I want the power in the rear that I had with my 1s so I think that excludes the 3s. Too close to my current 4000s.
How's this for a strange setup?
While discussing with my dealer he mentioned one setup he has seen that consisted of Beolab 3s and a 2 in front, and Beolab 5s as rears!!!!
Apparently the wife's design criteria outweighed the sonic criteria. He did say it sounded wonderful
Large powerful speakers need room to breathe, and lab 5s, dont sound their best in the average household.Big speakers ,does not always mean, best sound.
When you go to a proper hi-fi shop the sound systems are set up properly for best sound quality
Thats one thing about the b&o dealers, that anoys me,the speakers are not set up properly to show them off best.
Set up mostly for lifestyle purposes,too close together etc,bright sounding beoliving rooms.
I have heard alot of beolab speakers sound loads better in someones house than the showroom.
Always try to get a demo in your own house,makes a massive difference in choosing speakers.
The biggest,most expensive in the range is not always best,for your room.
Moxxey should clarify that aswell.
There's only one.... Beolab 5. :D
Too long to list....
butch1: Large powerful speakers need room to breathe, and lab 5s, dont sound their best in the average household.Big speakers ,does not always mean, best sound.
Completely correct. And this is not a dig at anyone in particular - Razlaw is doing the right thing by getting a personal demo of the 5s - but sometimes, as blokes, brash blokes, we think "big is best" and we like to think that by smothering the room in big huge speakers, somehow that might impress our friends (and also give us the best audio experience). Doesn't always work that way.
BL5s are almost industrial-level speakers. They need to be pushed hard and, when pushed, they deliver. Problem is, most people buy products like this simply....because they exist. Same way if B&O finally bring out a set of speakers that sit above the BL5s, we'll buy them - we're blokes, we have to. Something is deep inside people that makes them desire "the best", even though they are unsuitable for their room. They then come on here, seeking other blokes to write paragraphs of text telling them why they made the right decision :)
It's the same desire that drives us to keep upgrading TVs, buying bigger and bigger screens (look at me, for example, looking at the BV12!). We can't help ourselves; me included!
bsantini:Sell me your 1s, if they are bright red! B
Sorry, they are the dark burgundy color. And, I don't want to sell them. I like them too much.
Had dealer scheduled to come today for an in home demo of Beolab 5s and also he was bringing a second pair of 9s so I could hear what it sounded like with 4 9s. Technician got sick and had to cancel. :(