BV14 and Beovision Horizon - any feedback?

when i did my by side of the 11 vs 14, using regular SKY HD in the store, the 14 looked a bit better and fresher.......

dont think its the upscaling where the 14 had the odd issue......the dark scenes issues occurred even on some 4K Netflix....anyways, i actually like the brightness of the LCD on the 14-55, picture can look a little dark and uneven around the perimeter to me, could just be me, but never seem to notice the same on my 12-65...........

thought the new tech of 4K and old interface on the Avant would be a good combo.....i'll get there in the end...

Sandyb:

Thanks, will have a think about my input requirements......if indeed i do switch to an Avant 55......

to be honest, struggling with the panel differences between the first and newer generation Avant 55s......first seems edge lit, which i am not keen on, and the NG seems directly lit.......my 14-55 is directly backlit, and while exellent for my main use (SKY HD), can struggle with dark scenes on some streamed Netflix and Amazon content.....maybe its just an LCD thing.....my 12-65 doesnt struggle nearly as much with the same content, and its colours are much richer than the 14-55, much as the brightness of the 14-55 is really nice......

anyway, will continue to ponder, and pine for an OLED......

It struggles because it is only one dimming zone meaning the entire screen dims. Not real direct led, well it is but not zones that dim individual. A downgrade.

downgrade from the 11?

do B&O actually do a full local dimmed LCD?

Sandyb:

downgrade from the 11?

do B&O actually do a full local dimmed LCD?

Yes they do. 85" and the previous 75" Avant. The new 75" Is "global dimming" meaning the entire screen dims instead of just dark areas = a bad thing.

This is also what it says on the Beovision 14, unfortunately. This means either that the screen only dims to adjust for room light or that the entire screen dims as a whole to compensate for dark/bright images. The only upside for BV14 is 4K support, but it lost 3D - and dimming zones. Unfortunately.

The first full array local dimming tv from B&O was the BV7-55.

I hate to say it but Direct-LED with global dimming is the cheapest solution available. Even cheaper than edge lit thinner screens.

The positive thing though is that light uniformity is/might be more uniform.

The biggest disadvantage I guess is bleeding black on bars over cinematographic content where edge lit screens (not all but the ones previously used by B&O) could turn off the leds completely in these areas eliminating the bars really good.

Michael:

I hate to say it but Direct-LED with global dimming is the cheapest solution available. Even cheaper than edge lit thinner screens.

I agree. Too bad B&O went with a cheap panel supplier with the BV14, Avant NG & Horizon. And to further "downgrade" things, tried to port all their proprietary software to Android. Disasters.

I'm trying to get some more detailed information on the dimming zones in the newer screens....having just spoken to my dealer, he seemed to have a bit more detail than on the product sheets available on the website.....

if it is as appears, i.e global dimming with few if no controllable zones, are we to assume the screens have got worse? i.e. is the Avant 55 with edge lighting really a better screen than the 55 NG.......i'll report back when and if i have more detailed info...and am doing a wise by side in early Jan.....anyway.the brightness numbers seem to have gone down too, though whether that is good or bad, i dont know.......i dont have much experience of the Avant, if i need to swap my 14 for an Avant, shoudl i be going for a first generation? (for PQ reasons, ignoring the OS issues).....?.......my dealer also explained that the 2014 Avant might have been updated screen wise in the last year, even prior to the Avant NG........

also worth noting that despite being offered an extra year of warranty on my 14, i was informed that owners of new screens with issues, will be offered an A1 as compensation........

 

 

Sandyb:

also worth noting that despite being offered an extra year of warranty on my 14, i was informed that owners of new screens with issues, will be offered an A1 as compensation........

'an A1 as compensation' - well that is what I call generosity

MM

yes that seems to be the standard offer......that said my dealer did manage to get me a bit better (350 pounds vs the A1 at 199), which i have used against the cost of a BS2, which i am picking up tomorrow morning.......

I'm kind of waiting for my BV11-46 (Mk I) – the last BV made in Denmark – to die, so that I'll have an excuse to buy the B6 or E6 OLED (or Bild 7).

Alas, I've had no problems with my BV11 since I bought it in 2012. And the picture is great (with 1.5D local dimming, similar to the original Avant 55"), even though it is not 4K. In a 46" size, 4K would be mostly overkill, anyway.

In a world of "planned obsolecence", and B&O's greed for profit with their latest cheap screens, the joy I get from BV11 lasts too long for my earthly desires to upgrade my TV. Like a tank, it just works.

I hope I just jinxed it!

KMA:

and B&O's greed for profit with their latest cheap screens,

I just don't understand comments like this. It's a business. It's there to make money. It won't exist if it doesn't in the long term. How can that be greed?

However, B&O haven't actually made a profit for some time.

They could use more expensive screens. Then they would either have to charge even more or lose even more.

Duels:

I just don't understand comments like this. It's a business. It's there to make money. It won't exist if it doesn't in the long term. How can that be greed?

However, B&O haven't actually made a profit for some time.

They could use more expensive screens. Then they would either have to charge even more or lose even more.

We have a difference of opinion, then. For B&O's prices for their TVs, they should already use the absolute best panels available.

Why should we pay the prices they ask for anything less, regardless of how much profit they manage (or fail) to squeeze in?

Edit: and if they used the best panels available, and their software worked, I'd be inclined to upgrade my BV11. Until then, I'll enjoy the last BV made in Denmark.

KMA:

We have a difference of opinion, then. For B&O's prices for their TVs, they should already use the absolute best panels available.

Why should we pay the prices they ask for anything less, regardless of how much profit they manage to squeeze in? KMA

You talk as if profit is a dirty word KMA.

To use the best panels available (and maybe they should maybe they shouldn't) would increase the cost which in turn would either mean B&O making a bigger loss or having to charge more for the TVs. Which would you prefer?

Duels:

You talk as if profit is a dirty word KMA.

To use the best panels available (and maybe they should maybe they shouldn't) would increase the cost which in turn would either mean B&O making a bigger loss or having to charge more for the TVs. Which would you prefer?

I'd prefer having a BeoVision that is, technically speaking, worth the price they ask, simple as that

Edit: I really don't mind paying the B&O premium, if I know that everything in a BeoVision is top-of-the-line. For example panels (compared to top-of-the-line Samsung, Panasonic or Sony).

KMA:

I'd prefer having a BeoVision that is, technically speaking, worth the price they ask, simple as that

Edit: I really don't mind paying the B&O premium, if I know that everything in a BeoVision is top-of-the-line. For example panels (compared to top-of-the-line Samsung, Panasonic or Sony). KMA

Current setup : BeoVision 11-46 with Apple TV, Sony BDP-S790, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 , BeoPlay A8, pair of BeoPlay S3, Beo5, BeoRemote One . B&O product history since 1991: Ridiculously long to list in a signature.

I accept that totally and from a consumer's point of view it's a perfectly valid and important judgement.

But from the company's point of view we still have to decide whether to charge more or absorb the cost and therefore increase our losses.

Duels:

I accept that totally and from a consumer's point of view it's a perfectly valid and important judgement.

But from the company's point of view we still have to decide whether to charge more or absorb the cost and therefore increase our losses.

With all the money I've poured into B&O since 1991 – and up until late, felt I've always got my money's worth – I reserve the right to the customer's point of view.

B&O's speakers and audio systems – they are still worth it, with one or two exceptions.

BeoVisions are taking a huge hit in perceived and actual value with BV14, Avant NG and Horizon, as the specs and customer opinions are surfacing. To have 4K, with cheap panels and lacklustre PQ features is NOT the way to go – not to mention the SW issues.

I really, truly, want B&O to do better.

KMA:

BeoVisions are taking a huge hit in perceived and actual value with BV14, Avant NG and Horizon, as the specs and customer opinions are surfacing. To have 4K, with cheap panels and lacklustre PQ features is NOT the way to go – not to mention the SW

I wonder if it is just us on this forum that perceive this or their general other non forum customers don't know and or care? I mean how would anyone really know of it's a "cheap" panel. To many people I suppose if it looks good and works then it's good

I'm with you on what you say I just was wondering ...

Aussie Michael:

I wonder if it is just us on this forum that perceive this or their general other non forum customers don't know and or care? I mean how would anyone really know of it's a "cheap" panel. To many people I suppose if it looks good and works then it's good

I'm with you on what you say I just was wondering ...

Good point.

What does the (especially first-time) BeoVision buyer know, expect and ask these days – and what do they compare the BV to?

KMA:

With all the money I've poured into B&O since 1991 – and up until late, felt I've always got my money's worth – I reserve the right to the customer's point of view.

B&O's speakers and audio systems – they are still worth it, with one or two exceptions.

BeoVisions are taking a huge hit in perceived and actual value with BV14, Avant NG and Horizon, as the specs and customer opinions are surfacing. To have 4K, with cheap panels and lacklustre PQ features is NOT the way to go – not to mention the SW issues.

I really, truly, want B&O to do better.

They will do next year with the OLED panels. B&O is not forcing anyone to buy the Horizon/BV14/Avant NG in a hurry. If you already own a B&O TV that works well, then it is worth to wait. The CES is less than a month away, and it is likely that we will see prototypes of the OLED TVs

Regards,

Jean

 

 

I am pretty sure, that the avarage Mr and Mrs Brown B&O costumer don't know anything about this.

Most people don't have the slightest clue of the differences between edge lit or full array local dimmed panels, HDR, Wide Colour Gamut or or even what 4K actually is.

MM

KMA:

What does the (especially first-time) BeoVision buyer know, expect and ask these days – and what do they compare the BV to?

Hi KMA,

Most customers only question their dealer if there is a real problem with the control of the product they own, and are not worried about picture quality, blurr or any other distortion in viewing ... They don't care about 4k or high or low quality panels. They are convinced that with paying a premium price they have bought the best on the market today.

My long time dealer has sold his business, and the new owner has changed the interior completly in the B&O shop style. I can imagine that most customers entering this wealhty surrounding, immediately being pampered with a coffee or other drinks are taking every product on display for the best you can buy. B&O built an environment designed entirely round the consumer, where service, learning and products were combined. Its all part of the experience to give the customer the confidence that B&O is the best product you will find on the planet.

The large part of customers, are satisfied with their purchase because they are not trying to get the most out of it, in a way we do.

Have a jolly and blessed Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Chris

 

 

Rightly said Chris

Millemissen:

I am pretty sure, that the avarage Mr and Mrs Brown B&O costumer don't know anything about this.

Most people don't have the slightest clue of the differences between edge lit or full array local dimmed panels, HDR, Wide Colour Gamut or or even what 4K actually is.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

I don't think there is an average B&O client. There's probably not many brands that have so many technology interested people around their products either. Many here still treasure old units and that is what I feel is synonymous with B&O and all their customers. We rely on the products to be very good, proven technology that will work for many years and do it good.

Sure, many might be happy with a cup of coffee and good salesmanship but many asks their children or friends for help too, or compare themselves. And of course the tech minded people do care. Even if they just sell 100 tv less that is still about 1 million euro in sales. Not a small sum. And I am sure just the people on BeoWorld makes up for a quite big pile of money that has gone into B&Os pockets throughout the years.

I don't expect highest quality everything but I do have high expectations. A Rolls Royce won't have seats from IKEA. Anyway, these models confuse me out of a business perspective.

First their own operating system that now works quite well too. Then they change to android and cheaper panels (I guess) and perhaps later to LG with WebOS just a year later. The middle step with Android seems so strange. Maybe this was a part of a plan before the LG partnership, and now it might very well just be one product line-up with the devices.

Regarding what someone wrote earlier about the global dimming screen on updated 2014 Avants, I think this is the device that was introduced just before NG as a slightly updated Avant 2014 but with another power supply for example. Maybe this was a cost cutting device to start rolling out the new panels. I think it was released this autumn. Just for a short while.

Michael:

I don't think there is an average B&O client. 

Can't say for the smaller markets - but in Denmark there are many 'Hr og Fru Hansen'-kunder.

MM

Hello,

Beautiful Television! The software update has not been released yet... Software is an easy thing to fix, just need time for feed back from customers, installers, and sales team. Bang & Olufsen will continue to solve any issues with software updates to make the BeoVision true B&O quality. I personally do not worry about a resolution.

Aussie Michael, Millemissen, Chris, Michael –

Very valid points of view.

I simply cannot shake the feeling, with B&O's new line of TVs, that they are transitory and indeed aimed at people who do not know better, or care.

That's all fine – but there used to be a time when BeoVisions stood for the best there is. Given it is not the case anymore, at least not at this point in time, I cannot help but feel that buyers are being duped.

There's this saying: "Fool is not the one who sells, but the one who buys." (Roughly translated of "Ei se ole tyhmä joka pyytää, vaan se joka maksaa.")

Again, this is just me expecting higher standard from B&O televisions, when a "reference level" B6 OLED sells for €2500, local dimming in LCDs have got better, FALD has made a comeback (looking at Panasonic), HDR really makes a difference – and B&O sells gimped / compromised tech clad in pretty design.

Maybe most of Beoworlders are not in their core demographic – we are too informed. But in my opinion, that speaks volumes of B&O's TVs. Roughly put, they are for the more or less ignorant buyers, who either do not know better or simply take the price for a guarantee of picture quality & faultless functionality. The latter will first burst the customer's bubble.

I hope the collaboration with LG will result in something stellar. Still I cannot help but wonder how will they get three software platforms to work seamlessly together: the legacy system of BV11, 1st Gen Avant, the Android system of their newer TVs, and the WebOS that LG will bring to the table.

This remains to be seen.

I do look forward to 2017 as a possible turning point for BeoVisions. 2016 has been a year for BeoVisions they could have skipped.

TL;DR – B&O should proudly offer the best that there is, not just a marketing-spun image of it and ever-slipping promises of updates. Until then, I'll stick with my trusty "old" BV11, or perhaps go for LG OLED in the interim and opt for the stand-alone BeoSounds / BeoPlay for audio.

Unfortunately I agree with all of that.

I get the feeling that the new LG based OLEDs will be repackaged Reference TVs with just the sound system being B&O. Saying that my fabulous 5-42 is just that I guess.

Consumers must have confidence in a brand, and if things slip it'll soon get out in today's media driven world. Personally I think the 12-65 and 11-46/55 will be the last true Beovisions we ever see.

interesting, so were the 2014 Avant's not well received picture quality wise? (aware of the HDMI 1.4 / HDR issues on release)....thought in general people quite liked them...........more generally, LCD's seem like such an imperfect tech to me, it just baffles me having just bought my first one......willing to live with one (whether i stick with the 14-55, or switch to an Avant 55 (2014/5) as an interim before getting an OLED........

They were well received Sandy. I think it became their best selling TV if not mistaken.

Thanks, on a slightly related note, i just spent an hour reading a long AV forums thread on the LG E6 vs Loewe Bild 7s ( dont judge me, i was bored)...

Amongst the many commenters was one who works in the Loewe Gallery in Manchester - he seemed objective, technically savvy and sensible. His conclusions were (in the end he preferred the Loewe, but was clear it wasnt a night and day thing)

-  both are fabulous though not flawless tv's, neither seemed a bad choice in the end

-  the Loewe seemed to produce a nicer, more natural image

-  concerns about the Motion processing in the LG are best ignored - its best turned off on either, then fine on both, although there seems to be a general feeling that the Loewe does a fantastic job in this respect

- Loewe Bild sound allegedly on par with the B&O Avant, according to one commenter, so not definite i guess, but interesting...

Anyway, thought it was interesting from this point of view - Loewe seem to have got the latest (2016) high end panels from LG, added their video processing, plus all the audio stuff, and turned out a product people seem excited by..........over to you, B&O.....

*LG E6's have had issues with screen uniformity and people returning them, in addition to software issues (though less serious sounding than B&O)

* Loewe Bild's lack Netflix, unlikely to ever get it, given small scale niche brand....

so some familiar problems, not unique to B&O, but interesting....anyway, apologies for the possibly unnecessary share.....

 

 

I read about that too Sandy and I do the same when I am bored :-) 

I went in to the Loewe store here in Camberwell which is a few doors down from B&O as I wanted to see what another high quality brand has.  They didn't have the OLED Build 7 model.

I went in there because I thought I read many years ago that B&O speakers work natively with a Loewe TV - that may have been earlier versions.

What I learned is that: if you have B&O speakers, they have to be run through a receiver/amp; if you connect an Apple TV to the Loewe, you can't use the one remote control like you can with the B&O; the remote control was not that high quality; however, the stand options are huge and flexible. 

I really wanted to love the Loewe (and I do) but now I am in a B&O ecosystem, and can't use my speakers (don't want to buy an amp/receiver) and prefer using one remote, lead me back to B&O. 

I can't wait to see the Beovision 14 in the brass edition.  I think I would like to design a different stand option for the BV14 - somehow the round disc doesn't do it justice when its on the motorised stand - am I the only one that feels that the round disc is odd? 

I have also been thinking that if B&O wanted to bring out a redline edition again, that the Horizon would be perfect for that.  They could either have a redline on the outside of the tv (subtle) or one of the speaker grills could be red and they could have matching speakers and sell it as a "package" 

KMA:

I'm kind of waiting for my BV11-46 (Mk I) – the last BV made in Denmark –

No it's my WISA MKII !

From what I can see, 2016 tv's picture quality seems ok, not a downgrade at all.

Had a look twice at the Horizon 40-48 and BV14-55 : fantastic picture.

Maybe we are focussing too much on the specs we see on paper (my dealer is mad at me because of that).

My MX wasn't 100hz or 16/9, what a great pleasure I had owning it.

My Avant was only 32" with a curved screen, what a great pleasure I had owning it.

My BV10 - pass (great colours but poor poor poor black !).

My BV11 is not 4K HDR, what a great pleasure I have owning it.

Of course the buggy system must be killing it (the pleasure), but the tv's alone are just on another planet compared to the rest (like their prices !).

Me too I'm tempted by an Oled Loewe made in germany (half the price of the Avant I wanted to buy), but just look at that remote.

I don't expect much of the LG / B & O Oled next thing because again prices will be not on the moon but on mars.

Aussie Michael:

I can't wait to see the Beovision 14 in the brass edition. I think I would like to design a different stand option for the BV14 - somehow the round disc doesn't do it justice when its on the motorised stand - am I the only one that feels that the round disc is odd?

I don't like the design on the foot either. I'd prefer if it was one design all over with the same aluminum kind as on BV10/11/14 : a spinning effect all over, instead of the brushed Alu plus small spinning cover.

BeoGreg:

From what I can see, 2016 tv's picture quality seems ok, not a downgrade at all.

Had a look twice at the Horizon 40-48 and BV14-55 : fantastic picture.

Maybe we are focussing too much on the specs we see on paper (my dealer is mad at me because of that).

My MX wasn't 100hz or 16/9, what a great pleasure I had owning it.

My Avant was only 32" with a curved screen, what a great pleasure I had owning it.

My BV10 - pass (great colours but poor poor poor black !).

My BV11 is not 4K HDR, what a great pleasure I have owning it.

Of course the buggy system must be killing it (the pleasure), but the tv's alone are just on another planet compared to the rest (like their prices !).

Me too I'm tempted by an Oled Loewe made in germany (half the price of the Avant I wanted to buy), but just look at that remote.

I don't expect much of the LG / B & O Oled next thing because again prices will be not on the moon but on mars.

Have you seen them in your home or just in a store made to make every product look stunning? In there the lights and everything else makes it hard to see the real backlight performance.

I also think it's a bit unfair to compare to a rounded crt without 100 hz. Sure B&O did those but they did introduce flat 100 hz tubes too. I had one, the real flat 32 Avant. It was amazing with it's top quality stuff.

@ Michael

What I meant is that on the paper B&O tv's are always behind for the last tech specs but in real life they blow the competition.

Your right, I tested in the shop and forgot that for dark scenes test nothing compares to a dark room.

OK, now that we are down this rabbit hole, a quick follow up....

given my BV14 software saga, mentioned before that i'm thinking of swapping it for an Avant 55 (not NG).....question exercising me is whether the picture, screen is something i'd be happy with......if so, happy days, happy PQ + old software would be fine for me, given its my second screen....

anyway, with respect to the Avant's, confirmed that the original Avant (from 2014 on) had the edge lit screen, but that after a certain serial number, the panel was updated / changed to the same one in the new NG......so while the dealers will broadly talk about the 2014 version and now the NG, in reality there was an in between set of serial numbers which had the new panel with the old software.....

as for which is better, that i guess goes beyond specs.....the spec sheets which the dealers see but we dont, show the new panels to have "direct type lighting with global dimming zones", cant remember the number of LEDs, but its less than the Mark 1, lower brightness (400 vs 450), and something about dimming zones (12 i think from memory)....

will be doing a side by side between the Avant 55 2014 and the Avant 55 NG in first week of January.....

 

Sandy, that's the tv I was going to buy a month ago (my dealer still as one in stock) and it had a 15% price discount on it. Just saying.

BeoGreg:

@ Michael

 

What I meant is that on the paper B&O tv's are always behind for the last tech specs but in real life they blow the competition.

 

Your right, I tested in the shop and forgot that for dark scenes test nothing compares to a dark room.

Your point is completely valid and I agree. They aren't usually using the latest tech, but the best tech. In this case, it _seems_ they are not using either, just cheaper panels that are way easier to control since. But I might be wrong.

Sandyb:

OK, now that we are down this rabbit hole, a quick follow up....

given my BV14 software saga, mentioned before that i'm thinking of swapping it for an Avant 55 (not NG).....question exercising me is whether the picture, screen is something i'd be happy with......if so, happy days, happy PQ + old software would be fine for me, given its my second screen....

anyway, with respect to the Avant's, confirmed that the original Avant (from 2014 on) had the edge lit screen, but that after a certain serial number, the panel was updated / changed to the same one in the new NG......so while the dealers will broadly talk about the 2014 version and now the NG, in reality there was an in between set of serial numbers which had the new panel with the old software.....

as for which is better, that i guess goes beyond specs.....the spec sheets which the dealers see but we dont, show the new panels to have "direct type lighting with global dimming zones", cant remember the number of LEDs, but its less than the Mark 1, lower brightness (400 vs 450), and something about dimming zones (12 i think from memory)....

will be doing a side by side between the Avant 55 2014 and the Avant 55 NG in first week of January.....

 

Sandyb,

You are more or less right but your dealer has told you wrong. ALL Avant 2014 55" is edge lit. After september 2016 a model called "BeoVision Avant Reinstated" was introduced as a temporary model in between 2014 and NG. This model has the same panel as the NG edition. and modified video engine (to adhere to the new panel standards I suppose). It also have some hardware changes to make it easier to service.  

You're now saying that your dealer showed you that the global backlight was to mean 12 zones? I don't think this is true either. On B&O´s webpage it clearly states global dimming on Avant NG 55, 75 and 2D local dimming only on the 85". Maybe the dealer misread the information since it differs between the panel sizes. 

I had a look on all the current models at bang-olufsen.com and it states:

• Beovision 11, 200/240 hz, 3D, edge lit and 1.5D local dimming.
• Beovision 14, 100/120 hz. Nothing about 3D or what kind of dimming or backlight method.
• Beovision Horizon, 100/120 hz, same as BV14 = no more info, but anti-glare matt surface.
• BeoVision Avant (NG), 100/120 hz, 3D, direct type led, global dimming (55/75")/2d backlight dimming (85"), anti-glare lcd surface (?) meaning matte screen instead of the glossy on Avant 2014(?).

Agree, all Avant 2014 55 are edge lit.....and yes the intermediate serial numbers has the new panel..as for when in 2016 those serial numbers applied, dont know what months they started........as for the new panels having 12 zones, i read that on the screen, so he wasnt telling me anything, but showing me the spec on screen......and it specifically related to the Avant 55, showing the original screen spec, the intermediate spec and the NG spec on the same page......the other stuff is correct, slightly fewer LEDs and lower brightness on the newer screens......i'm back there in 2 weeks, so i will double check, but thats what it read on their internal system, not from the consumer facing website......anyway, we can debate to what extent the newer screens are worse, many will find it marginal, some perhaps not......