ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Dear Beoists,
I was just banging out the Pixies' Surfa Rosa when I noticed the 's' sound from the vocalists sounded a bit splashy and between tracks I could hear a bit of 'rumble'.I've noticed the splashy 's' sound before on singers' vocals but often put it down to the age of the record I was playing. However my Pixies album is new.The same effect is noticeable on In Rainbows by Radiohead.
I'm playing records on a Beogram 5005 through a Beomaster 5500 with a set of Beovox 3702s connected. The cartridge is a re-tipped (by Axel Schürholz) MMC4 which has been in use for approx 1 year. I'm not certain this is in need of re-tipping already because the detail it produces is still glorious.The weighting is set to the correct amount of 1.2g.
The 'rumble' I mentioned is audible in the silence between tracks - it reminds me of the rumble I remember hearing on my parents' old Beogram 1500: a rumble along with the sound of the stylus in contact with the record. It's difficult to describe but that seems most appropriate.
So what are your thoughts? I'm keen to hear any opinions.
Am I just hearing the sound of an MMC4 and to hear beautiful clear 's' sounds in vocals I should pay out for an MMC2?Should I alter the ride height of the platter?Are there any other adjustments I should check out to perhaps create the correct tracking height for the stylus?
Yours in good faith,
Julian
If it wasn't done before, its time to open your deck and give it a good cleaning and lubrication, also clean all contacts, switches and relays and check the adjustments.
There are manuals onsite for silver and gold members. I did my BG 5000, BG 2404 and my BG 1202, and it was amazing how much dried grease and oil I found in all of them. It may also be time for new belts, Member Dillen on the forum can provide the correct ones, Be careful buying elsewhere, some sellers don't care about the right size and elasticity, Dillen do.
The rumble may come from dried out bearings, the splashing sound may be a bad contact somewhere (mute switch), but first of all clean it all and lubricate everything, and then try again. Your MMC 4 should be OK Axel make good works and it should be good for years to come.
Welcome to the forum
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
I found that the Axel cartridges need a slight increase in tracking weight to sound their best. Try 1.4 - 1.5g.
Peter
I agree with Peter, that's also my experience.
Martin
Too low a tracking weight leading to mistracking sounds splashy, so i would try upping the tracking weight as recommended.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Agreed on 1.4-1.5g. Best to err on the heavy side. Buy a cartridge test record - e.g. Shure's Audio Obstacle course - available on eBay. Sibilance is just one of the criteria that your cartridge will be tested on. You might not like what you hear...
I do remember when I first started with beograms and had a 1902 with an MMC20S - the sibilance was pretty poor to my ears. I graduated to an MMC6000 and have run 20CLs since and not had anything like the same problem.
Looking at original MMC4s, I have an electron microscope picture of one somewhere and the stylus is pretty spherical (two hardly noticeable flakes off the side.) I do wonder if it is that which is the problem! I have also found that getting older has almost completely cured the issue anyway as high frequencies are almost completely wiped out!
Axel actually recommends 1.4-1-5g for his refurbed MMC4's
I have the sibilance problem on a new 180g audiophile copy of Eva Cassidy's Songbird. It might be the pressing, it might be the recording but it is certainly not my equipment as it is apparent on every deck I play it on and using every type of cartridge from MMC2 through MMC4 to MMMC20EN and CL.
Your rumble problem will probably be corrected with a drop of oil in the centre bearing.
I have not had a Beogram that did not need a new drive belt. You can still order belts for the Beogram 3000-7000 series from your B&O dealer. You will find that it makes all the difference to the sound quality and they are the cheapest upgrade that I know!
Regards Graham
Hi,
I too have a 5005 with an Axel MMC4 and if anything, treble is on the warm side!
Of course I get treble with Brothers in Arms, but that's an extreme example!
I use 1.5 grammes.
I still prefer the Soundsmith though, but like Peter, I'm not getting any younger and the days of bat hearing are over!
Jacques
Early examples of Axel refurbs did have a cantitever that was a mm or so too long to allow the guard to be used. It is not much use so just don't use it.
It is quite normal and is not affecting the sound quality. I am convinced that your "splashy" s's are a function of the record pressing for reasons that I describe in my previous post.
chartz: Hi, I too have a 5005 with an Axel MMC4 and if anything, treble is on the warm side! Of course I get treble with Brothers in Arms, but that's an extreme example! I use 1.5 grammes. I still prefer the Soundsmith though, but like Peter, I'm not getting any younger and the days of bat hearing are over!
Update!
Today I got Rich's old and well-played MMC4. Thanks Rich!
Now, this old cartridge with its original stylus undoubtedly sounds better than Axel's one. And it is the second one, because the first one had a completely wrong angle! I'm not very lucky.
Hello - update from me on this old thread:
My MMC4 still dislikes treble. I've cleaned and lubricated the deck, checked the platter level and tried different weight settings. Still certain "ess" sounds in song lyrics sound really bad.
So I took the MMC4 off and took some pictures close-up. It's pretty filthy! The tip itself is lagged in dirt, at least it appears to be.The pictures are included in this post - for info if anything.
I'm considering buying a Soundsmith cartridge to hopefully make the most of my BG5005. Failing that I'll change the whole deck - which is something I'd rather not do.
Before anything try this and as Lee mentions damaged/worn vinyl, and look out for bad recorded vinyl, suggestion for an upgrade, Axel can upgrade your MMC4 to a MMC2, cheaper than Soundsmith and in my opinion closer to the original, I use my MMC2 on my BG 5000 pizzabox, and it is better than the MMC4, I only use this BG for new or pristine used records, if you buy new records, check the reviews before buying, best if remastered from original tapes.
My last buy in a very good quality was Bette Midler "Its The Girls"
I also have a pair of 3702s they are prone to some distortion in the highs, go look for a pair of M70s or equivalent which will also give you a better bass, I liked my 3702s until I connected my M70s, The M70s are a lot better all over. At the moment I run BG 5000, BM4400, M70s
Try upgrade to at least an SMMC3. To truly get rid of sibilant splashy S, an upgrade over an SMMC3 will be needed.
The MMC2 was designed for a reason. Also, you will notice that anything lower then an MMC2/SMMC2, you will get quite bad splashy S from about 3/4 of the the record in. Also known as inner groove distortion. You cannot completely eradicate this, but the MMC2 and higher make it a lot less noticeable!
I have an SMMC3 and it's very very good, but it does not compare to an SMMC2/MMC2, especially at 3/4 into the record. The MMC2/SMMC2 tracks these tighter inner groves much better and it's instantly noticeable.
Agreed Lee, but the good old MMC20CL sounds exactly like that!
I've had issues with Shibata stylii and less than perfect LPs.
Does anyone here own a Sound Smith The Voice?
Would love to hear one on a B&O turntable.
Lee:The 20CL sounds fab in its original incarnation. I've auditioned several from NOS ones to very carefully looked after but well used ones and they sound lovely. As great as it is though changing to the boron cantilever takes it to another level. I agree shibatas can be a bit "picky" but this one seems to play anything I throw at it so long as it's clean.... If it's slightly dirty it pulls every last bit of crud out of the groove so needs regular cleaning!
As great as it is though changing to the boron cantilever takes it to another level.
I agree shibatas can be a bit "picky" but this one seems to play anything I throw at it so long as it's clean.... If it's slightly dirty it pulls every last bit of crud out of the groove so needs regular cleaning!
You definitely need a MMC6000! I just wish I could find mine - I lent it to my mother in law and it never came back.
Wow! I just read back over your experiences with that awkwardly tall MMC4. I hope you found a resolution.I'll be giving mine a proper clean and further experimenting with the platter height.
Sadly the adjustment screws on the tonearm are solid and I can't get them to move. I think I might be better off changing the deck. (From a cosmetic point of view it's a BG5005 sat on top of a Beosystem 6500. It's my black sheep of the family :)
Lee:The stylus tip needs cleaning badly!! Use a cotton but dipped in isopropyl alcohol and lightly wet the tip... Be careful not to get any traveling up the cantilever into the cartridge as this will damage it. When the tip is slightly damp use a brush to lightly brush from back to front and this should remove all that gunk. Ensure that the tracking force is set to 1.4g. This will get rid of most of the sibilance issues. If you want to get rid of them completely you'll need to upgrade your stylus. Beware though a lot of overly sibilant ess sounds are caused by damaged/worn vinyl and no cartridge/stylus can help with that.
(Finally spotted how to include the comment I'm replying to)A quick look at the link in Soren's reply shows just how clean and 'pointy' his MMC4 tip was after cleaning and how awfully gunked up mine is!I feel like a dinner party host after a guest has pointed out my bath needs cleaning. :)
Søren Mexico: Before anything try this and as Lee mentions damaged/worn vinyl, and look out for bad recorded vinyl, suggestion for an upgrade, Axel can upgrade your MMC4 to a MMC2, cheaper than Soundsmith and in my opinion closer to the original, I use my MMC2 on my BG 5000 pizzabox, and it is better than the MMC4, I only use this BG for new or pristine used records, if you buy new records, check the reviews before buying, best if remastered from original tapes. Good suggestions, and I'll certainly check out that cleaning technique. The point you have on that MMC4 is far more distinctive than the blob I current have!Regarding your comments about records the sibilance is present on both old and new types. I have a good collection of both and can't believe I could be unlucky enough to have bought bad presses of all my new LPs. My last buy in a very good quality was Bette Midler "Its The Girls" My favourite pressing from recent purchases is Radiohead's In Rainbows. It'll sound even better as soon as my stylus has been cleaned up :) I also have a pair of 3702s they are prone to some distortion in the highs, go look for a pair of M70s or equivalent which will also give you a better bass, I liked my 3702s until I connected my M70s, The M70s are a lot better all over. At the moment I run BG 5000, BM4400, M70s I recently switched my 3702s out of my secondary system after finding a fabulous pair of P45s on sale in south London. All the drivers are immaculate with no 'seizure' problems. They're glorious - they don't go as low as my Penta 2s (obviously) but the improvement on the 3702 is considerable. I'm running them through a Beomaster 5500 currently, but at some point will try them with my Beomaster 5000 (pizza box) which I feel has a slightly richer sound. It might compliment the P45s a little more.
Good suggestions, and I'll certainly check out that cleaning technique. The point you have on that MMC4 is far more distinctive than the blob I current have!Regarding your comments about records the sibilance is present on both old and new types. I have a good collection of both and can't believe I could be unlucky enough to have bought bad presses of all my new LPs.
My favourite pressing from recent purchases is Radiohead's In Rainbows. It'll sound even better as soon as my stylus has been cleaned up :)
I recently switched my 3702s out of my secondary system after finding a fabulous pair of P45s on sale in south London. All the drivers are immaculate with no 'seizure' problems. They're glorious - they don't go as low as my Penta 2s (obviously) but the improvement on the 3702 is considerable. I'm running them through a Beomaster 5500 currently, but at some point will try them with my Beomaster 5000 (pizza box) which I feel has a slightly richer sound. It might compliment the P45s a little more.
Cooker: Try upgrade to at least an SMMC3. To truly get rid of sibilant splashy S, an upgrade over an SMMC3 will be needed. The MMC2 was designed for a reason. Also, you will notice that anything lower then an MMC2/SMMC2, you will get quite bad splashy S from about 3/4 of the the record in. Also known as inner groove distortion. You cannot completely eradicate this, but the MMC2 and higher make it a lot less noticeable! I have an SMMC3 and it's very very good, but it does not compare to an SMMC2/MMC2, especially at 3/4 into the record. The MMC2/SMMC2 tracks these tighter inner groves much better and it's instantly noticeable.
Thanks - I'm keen to try a more top-end cartridge. An MMC2 would be amazing! Somebody else posted on here that Axel can transform my MMC4 to an MMC2 - I'll look into this.
Is sibilance a common problem with records in general? Or is it that I'm using a close-to-bottom-of-the-range MMC4?
My parents have a Beogram 1500 with an SP14 attached. It sounds glorious and doesn't suffer from the same sibilance problems described in this thread. Granted it's a very 'warm' sound, but the lovely little amp in the 1500 can add in a little treble to really add some sparkle. That amp and stylus combo is indeed a winner.
Did your sound improve after cleaning the needle, and do you still have the rumble problem
Yes, the MMC4 does not help things there.