ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
DMacri:It's probably just because I spent a lot of time restoring tube audio equipment, but I got in the habit of using a variac to slowly form the main power supply caps. Here's an excerpt from Anglefire.com:
Yes, that's all true. But a modern, new cap is a completely different thing than a 50-70 year old high voltage electrolytic that has sat unused for the last 30 years.
--mika
I am an old time mechanic, I have installed new and reconstructed printing presses since 40 + years, I have never installed a bigger machine without problems, during trial runs. These machines are precision build, mechanics, hydraulics, pneumatics and electrical combinations.
Today in the newer machines the main problem are the electronics, as even the smallest push button has its own small PCB, my experience tells me to go slow when starting up for the first time, In Mexico and other similar countries one can never trust the main power supplies, there are always fluctuations. The machines are mostly build to compensate for this, but even so I have learned to be careful starting up. If starting up, and going fast to full power I get more failures, than if done carefully. In a new bigger machine it takes me about 40-50 hours production to get to full speed and this gives me less failures than when going to full speed within the first 10 hours, I´m here talking only about the electronics. But the other systems shows the same.
After repairs, like changing PCBs or components on a PCB, I have learned to not only check the changes item, but also the neighboring ones, new parts tends to give stress on other older components that wasn't there before.
It is also a question of the environment where the machine works, in 1st countries (EU, USA) in the print shops the ambient temp is normally held at 20°C and the humidity at around 70% 24-7, Now take a machine from this part of the world where it may have been working for 5-10 years, and bring it to a place where the temp has 50°C variation and humidity goes from 20 to 90% within 24 hours, If you dont let the machine slowly get used to the new environment, you run into troubles,
I have installed machines in EU, USA far east, in Africa, South America and on the Caribic islands, my experience shows me, a machine coming from the same environment gives less problems than one coming from another extreme.
So I am totally for a "burn in", running in period for whatever electronic device one may purchase, specially when we are talking about used repaired items.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
A most interesting and educational debate on burning-in….. I am not certain I understood all of it, but academic stimulation is a good thing and in the end quite helpful.
I was especially intrigued by Søren’s cautious approach to printing press installation, which he extends to operating antique electronics, that is to say he allows them to warm up before requiring “hard work” which has to be a good idea.
I have owned a McIntosh amp for 35 years but until now I didn’t understand the timed delay as McIntosh does not allow you to just turn on the amp, nope they have a 5 second electronic delay with a count-down display to tell you when you can use the amp.
I now follow Søren’s lead and allow all my vintage electronic to warm up a bit before putting them under load and I am willing to bet that they will last a whole lot longer as a result. Thanks Søren.
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Søren
You are right, things should be done by local experts. One hat doesn't fit to all. My writing was at 1st world problem point of view.
I have similar delay in my Pioneer, I assume it gives time to supply voltages settle?
blah-blah and photographs as needed
Søren,
You are so right about a new component placing stress on the remaining older parts. In a different place and time I replaced the picture tube on my CRT based television and within days the power demand of the new CRT took out most of the remaining tubes, which all had to be replaced.
Orava,
Your assessment sounds good to me. The McIntosh provides only one option, to have an audible “beep” sound with each displayed number counting down or silence. I imagine your Pioneer does not give you the option to bypass this start-up procedure, as the McIntosh doesn’t.
In the case of the vintage electronics I now make a point of turning them on and letting them sit idle for a few minutes before turning up the music. Not quite sure if this is as good as playing an amp at low volume for 15 minutes, as Søren does before cranking up the volume. Regardless, I never start the music at a high setting right off the bat as a precaution.
I think I'm dreaming, and I'm not intoxicated, nor did I consume a lot of cubas, I was playing a radio station very loud on the BM 4400-P45s.
The FS told me: "The new one sounds very good", thats a first time she ever remarked anything about sound, normally its, can you paint it, it does not fit to my curtains, or some other intelligent remark.
I'm in heaven
Orava: I have similar delay in my Pioneer, I assume it gives time to supply voltages settle?
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
mexking:I think I'm dreaming, and I'm not intoxicated, nor did I consume a lot of cubas, I was playing a radio station very loud on the BM 4400-P45s. The FS told me: "The new one sounds very good", thats a first time she ever remarked anything about sound, normally its, can you paint it, it does not fit to my curtains, or some other intelligent remark. I'm in heaven Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle
DMacri: Orava: I have similar delay in my Pioneer, I assume it gives time to supply voltages settle? You're right, the delay is to protect the speakers from the thump that happens when the power supply is charging and stabilizing. That's usually a sign that you have large storage caps in the power supply.
I can not thank you enough for explaining the rational behind the 5 second delay, which now makes PERFECT sense. The Beomaster 4400 would have benefited from this feature.
I do not know how truly large the storage caps are, but this is a 500 watt amplifier.
Søren Mexico: I think I'm dreaming, and I'm not intoxicated, nor did I consume a lot of cubas, I was playing a radio station very loud on the BM 4400-P45s. The FS told me: "The new one sounds very good", thats a first time she ever remarked anything about sound, normally its, can you paint it, it does not fit to my curtains, or some other intelligent remark. I'm in heaven
Well Søren, apparently you did such an exceptional job on your Beomaster 4400 that even your less than interested wife noticed. Man, that is praise indeed!
OK Søren, we really need an update, so how is your Beomaster 4400 doing after you got “brave” and took the volume to “6”? OMG! I am sure it did just fine and trust me on this; it is capable of more considering all the work you performed on her, but only when desired.
So fill us all in please.
Piaf:So fill us all in please.
With pleasure, alone at home I had her playing at volume level 6 driving P45s and Bvox 1600, that is as loud as I can take it in that small room, for one hour I had music to be heard in any room in my house, and the neighbors also could enjoy, For the radio the linear setting is my favorite, on CD (an old Philips) connected through tape in RCA, the treble has to be reduced a little, for the BG 1202 I had to adjust the level at the bottom of the unit to max, to get the same volume level as the CD-Radio. CDs and records are depending a lot on how they were mastered, only Deutsche Grammofon is good in linear, so there one has to adjust bass and treble.
As I know my neighbor like Credence Clearwater Reviwal, I just had to dig out my 45s remakes of this great group, after 3 song I was no longer alone at home, he brought with him some very cold Coronas, so checking temps on the cooling fins, we enjoyed the music, beers and no FSs.
The cooling fins stayed at nearly the same temp as when playing at level 3, a little bit more than hand warm, and the right side just over the 5TR2 warm as always, no wonder, the 5TR2 goes to 70-75°C and stays there.
I have been listening 2-4 hours every day since the test drive, and to my ears it got better and better the first 20 hours (small differences) and now she is at her best I think, but I am biased.
I will later on open her up again to check the idle voltage, and I am not satisfied with the FM reception, my BM 4000 has better reception with only a 20 cm wire strip, where on the BM 4400 I has to use a rabbit ear antenna to get the same reception as the BM 4000 with the wire.
Søren Mexico:my BM 4000 has better reception with only a 20 cm wire strip, where on the BM 4400 I has to use a rabbit ear antenna to get the same reception as the BM 4000 with the wire.
Soren, before you "open up", have you tried the 4000 is the same location as the 4400 ?
Hi Søren,
Thank you so very much for the update, as always, most interesting.
It is great that your neighbor comes over with a cold beer in response to your music. I doubt very much that my neighbor, if he actually hears my music would enjoy “No Mercy” singing in Spanish: “I miss you like the desert misses the rain.”
Do check out your 4400 in different locations for FM reception. My 4400 has remarkable FM reception only eclipsed CONSIDERABLY by the BeoCenter 9000, which is absolutely unbelievable in its ability to bring in Seattle and Olympia, Washington in crystal-clear fashion with only a ribbon wire antenna.
What the heck is a “FS”? You keep mentioning it and I know you mean your wife, but what does FS stand for? I can’t wait to be educated.
FS = Fabric Selector!
Somewhat derogatory, in my opinion.
Regards Graham
joeyboygolf: FS = Fabric Selector! Somewhat derogatory, in my opinion.
As one of the progenitors...
What is your definition of somewhat?
ɓʋɾɑɳɫɘɮ: joeyboygolf: FS = Fabric Selector! Somewhat derogatory, in my opinion. As one of the progenitors... What is your definition of somewhat?
Somewhat derogatory? Well “Fabric Selector” beats “Ball and Chain” hands down. Personally I prefer to think of FS as endearing with a sarcastic edge.
Piaf:Somewhat derogatory, in my opinion.
My wife calls me El Rey (the King), Big Dane, and when she is angry Mr. Nielsen, I call her Chivis, which can be translated to little bee, niña, mi amor and when she calls me Mr. Nielsen, I call her Señorita Alarcon, and here on the forum FS. She is heavily into doll making.
We have an ongoing competition on where to place my B&O and her dolls, she also wanted to decide which fabric to use for my speakers, so when Rich, or was it Burantek, came up with FS, I found it to be fitting for the forum.
And Jeff is right, it is a nickname with a sarcastic edge, but dont get it wrong, I love her, she pulls her load and goes with me on any crazy ideas I may have, and somehow keeps me away from getting too crazy.
<Thread Hijack>
My wife is the original Fabric Selector, thus dubbed by Burantek (Jaff/Jeff). She picked out the fret cloth for my M70s. See avatar at left.
The phrase as originally coined was neither derogatory nor complimentary. It was actually a substitute for the (at the time) overused phrase She Who Must Be Obeyed.
Personally, I consider the phrase a term of endearment. At least my wife was engaged in the M70 refurb project.
</Thread Hijack>
Søren Mexico: Piaf:Somewhat derogatory, in my opinion. My wife calls me El Rey (the King), Big Dane, and when she is angry Mr. Nielsen, I call her Chivis, which can be translated to little bee, niña, mi amor and when she calls me Mr. Nielsen, I call her Señorita Alarcon, and here on the forum FS. She is heavily into doll making. We have an ongoing competition on where to place my B&O and her dolls, she also wanted to decide which fabric to use for my speakers, so when Rich, or was it Burantek, came up with FS, I found it to be fitting for the forum. And Jeff is right, it is a nickname with a sarcastic edge, but dont get it wrong, I love her, she pulls her load and goes with me on any crazy ideas I may have, and somehow keeps me away from getting too crazy.
I think we all have our little nicknames. I rather like both El Rey and the Big Dane.
My former employees still call me Mr. G. which I take for a sign of respect, as that is what they called my father.
In any case it is an excellent idea to bring your wives into our B&O obsession by having them select the fabric for speakers and such…… for the obvious reasons. As LBJ used to say, “It is better to have the Indians inside the tent rather than outside.”
Hello Søren,
Well may we now safely assume that your Beomaster 4400 has passed all its tests and you are confident in your incredible repairs?
As we share a mutual interest in these 4400’s I think of yours virtually every day.
As I have been working like a slave since Thursday I didnt listen too any of my B&O, only work sleep work, 65 billed hours until yesterday (Monday) evening.
But today I read about Frede´s thread about Sonic quality, I may try to do something similar to my BM 901.
Frede is an amazing resource and a very fine person.
All the parts I needed for my Beogram 4000 came from Frede, as this 4000 arrived in numerous pieces….. basically shattered would be accurate.
No doubt Frede can help with that tool he made…… looks most interesting, although totally over my head.
Great job!
4 years the BM 4400 has been working like a charm, no problems what so ever, even hours playing very loud at parties.
But last week the right speaker started with lower volume than the left one, I put the volume to "0" and moved the balance slider some 5 times left to right and back, Checked the cables and started up again, no problems. The failure came back a couple of days later, and now with a scratching sound with very deep bass tones, moved the balance slider again and it went away again.
This morning it was back again, and the balance slider was feeling harder to move as before, so probably lost one of the small coal tips inside the slider, will only play now at low volumes until I get time to put another BM in its place.
As luck will I bought a wreck of a BM 4400 for parts last year, I hope the sliders are OK in that one, and that they are the same type (will have to check the serial numbers
Søren Mexico: 4 years the BM 4400 has been working like a charm, no problems what so ever, even hours playing very loud at parties.
Hi Søren,Don't tell me you over-stressed the balance slider at all of the parties . John
sonavor:Don't tell me you over-stressed the balance slider at all of the parties .
Good one John..... over stressed balance from parties. Wow, but doesn't that take me back?
Actually Soren, I am sure you are on top of your hiccup with the Beomaster 4400. Swapping the balance slider should be a very, very easy fix. Well at least for YOU.
Soren, I don't know if it makes you feel any better but if you "stressed-out" your balance slider, I stressed-out my ENTIRE Beomaster 4400. Frankly I was (still am) amazed that it lasted as long as it did with all those NOS (ancient) caps burning for 6 weeks. Remember all that? No bass, then too much bass, then volume changes with me on the other side of the room.
Soren, you will have your Beomaster 4400 fixed in no time, while mine has been waiting patiently on the dining room table for my Beomaster 1600 and Beomaster 1000 to return from Benny. The 1600 got stuck for a week in Georgia due to a "missing invoice," then made it to Oregon and back on hold for lack of country of manufacturer. Missed the deadline for customs, so the 1600 "should" be back next. week.
The Beomaster 1000 was almost finished, but no tuner. I pressed Benny and he got with Martin, so hopefully Martin's part will do the trick and once the BM 1000 is headed this way, I get to decide between the BM 4400 and the Beocord 5000.
Anyway Soren, when you get your Beomaster 4400 back in shape I know we will all be interested in what you found was wrong, the balance slider or something else. Buena suerte.
Hi there!
Balance pots usually suffer more from unuse than anything else. Perhaps a simple cleanup after opening it - please don't use those so-called contact cleaner sprays - would just do the trick.
Jacques
Right Jacques, but I have been moving all the sliders a couple of times once a week to avoid that problem, and I can feel that something is "scraping" in the balance slider. Checked my spare unit but it is a newer model with different potentiometers, I may be able to convert the balance poti or the base plate to fit but I will have to disassemble both units to get at it.
Meanwhile I will use my BM 4000 or the BM 5000 pizza box (need some use) until I get the 4400 repaired
Hi Soren and Jacques,
Could I possibly butt in here with a question?
Soren's problem is not what Jacques described, BUT it maybe what ails my Beomaster 4400.
Listening at a "high" volume the right channel went dead and I "assumed" the unfortunate use of NOS caps had finally run its course and the amp was in need of rebuilding again.
I tried it another day and it seemed OK, until it let out this God-awful eardrum shattering screech.
That did it so I "retired the 4400 to the dining room table where it looks kind of miserable, even neglected.
I replaced the Beomaster 4400 with my new (thank you Soren) Beolab 5000 and have really enjoyed the 5000.
However IF my symptoms sound like the Balance potentiometer I could try "exercising it" a bit. If not, I will send the 4400 to Benny for rebuilding. But first, I'd like to hear what you guys think.
Thank you for your advice.
Jeff dont try anything with your BM 4400, starting it up again may make things worse, you have a total different failure, send it to Benny.
Piaf: ... until it let out this God-awful eardrum shattering screech.
... until it let out this God-awful eardrum shattering screech.
Amplifier self-oscillation.Most likely caused by bad capacitors in the output stage.Can also happen if low-ESR capacitors are used in the output stage, but I suppose we can rule that out in this case.Typically only happens in one channel at a time, but if the power supply is "sloggy", the oscillation in one channel (which isquite powerful) transfers to the other channel to some extent because the power supply will ripple at the same frequency.Will kill tweeters if not careful.
Martin
Hi Soren and Martin,
I thought I had a possible "reasonable" solution. I see that is not the case.
You both know how this BM 4400 was rebuilt, so I can not thank you enough for this warning. It will remain unplugged on my dining room table. That it lasted this long is nothing short of a genuine miracle.
I know you both know how much a appreciate your wisdom and thoughtful guidance.