ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
tournedos: Rich:But Tape 1 could have CD X on the RCA jacks and an iPod dock on the DIN? That should work fine. The only downside might be slighly lower volume, depending on how the dock output is implemented internally.
Rich:But Tape 1 could have CD X on the RCA jacks and an iPod dock on the DIN?
That should work fine. The only downside might be slighly lower volume, depending on how the dock output is implemented internally.
Soren, I apologize for the brief thread jack.
I tried this arrangement last night, and whichever ("high level") source I plugged into the RCA jacks was much lower in volume. Tried a couple different CD players, a tape deck, and an iPod dock. Mixed and switched a few times.
Whatever source was plugged into the DIN jack (via convertor cable if necessary) had a normal volume level. At normal listening levels, this is usually around "4" on the volume slider. When I switched to the source on the RCA jacks, I had to push the slider to "7" or higher just to bring the volume to an audible level. On my BM4000 at least, "sharing" the Tape 1 input does not appear to be an option.
In testing this arrangement, and whenever I switch things up, I always start with the Stereophile Test CD 3. The start of this disc is a 5.1 channel identification and level setting track. Much to my dismay, I discovered last night while doing this little experiment that my Beogram CD X has much less output on the left channel than the right channel. I took the CD X out of the system and replaced it with an old DVD player and continued the experiment with the Beomaster.
After the experiment was done, I plugged the CD X back in and played the first track of the Stereophile Test CD 1, white noise at "-20 dB" equal on both channels. As a quick and dirty output level test, I measured the AC voltage across each RCA jack of the CD X. The left channel was around 20 mV and the right channel was around 700 mV. Unequal outputs indeed.
Rich:Whatever source was plugged into the DIN jack (via convertor cable if necessary) had a normal volume level. At normal listening levels, this is usually around "4" on the volume slider. When I switched to the source on the RCA jacks, I had to push the slider to "7" or higher just to bring the volume to an audible level.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but... are you sure you weren't playing into the REC OUT connectors?
For reference, I opened my BM4000 (type 2403) and here's the input board. The RCA daughter boards aren't fitted, but they indeed seem to be directly in parallel with the DINs - and TAPE1 RCA IN should be located between the TAPE1/2 DINs. The ones next to the AMBIO switch seem to be outputs.
--mika
tournedos: Sorry if this is a stupid question, but... are you sure you weren't playing into the REC OUT connectors?
How insulting!
Just kidding. Yeah, I was using the correct input jacks. During "the experiment" I unplugged whatever was in the DIN jack and the RCA source went back to a normal volume level.
Backing up a bit, you may recall I repurposed an old parallel printer switch to be a four-way selector as the input to my Tape 1 jack. The RCA cable connecting that selector to the Beomaster was never unplugged from the Beomaster, and it was the cable I used throughout "the experiment." I am 100% positive I was using the proper RCA input jack.
Rich:Just kidding. Yeah, I was using the correct input jacks. During "the experiment" I unplugged whatever was in the DIN jack and the RCA source went back to a normal volume level.
Funny. Wonder if the US version has a different input board and/or DIN connectors that have a switch to disconnect the RCAs? I guess I'll need to hand the thread back to Søren
Oh, and the Beomaster is clearly marked, as shown in this manual excerpt.
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
On the BM5000, the tape monitor function is on Tape 2.
Peter
Nothing is off topic on my threads.
But back to the Connections on PCB 4, the manual on site is the type 2417, no RCAs, mine is the type 2419 with the RCAs
Here overview
Tape in and Phono in RCAs are parallel connected, nothing between them
Here closer look at my Phono input, as you see someone has been fooling around there and put in some wires, in the red circle you see a cut track and there are a white and a green wire connected to pin 5, right channel, and both goes to same RCA+, looking at the RCA jacks from the back of the unit that will be the left RCA jack, pin 3 goes to right hand RCA jack. From pin 3 to + RCA solderpoint there is connection, but when I measure from pin 3 solderpoint to RCA + at the RCA + jack there is no connection, will try to find out why.
To Rich: Your lower volume is not OK there should be no difference if your cables and your magic box are wired OK
Here the other side
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
From the picture showing "foaling with wires" one can only assume that someone has bridged resistors in their flow, but cannot follow as you've only inserted part of the circuit board...
parallel connection was made to create "direct monitor" - I'd assume from the little I can see in this section of board, the "cut track" and re-route I don't get at all until I can see the whole picture
Don't worry - be Happy
Bob: From the picture showing "foaling with wires" one can only assume that someone has bridged resistors in their flow, but cannot follow as you've only inserted part of the circuit board... parallel connection was made to create "direct monitor" - I'd assume from the little I can see in this section of board, the "cut track" and re-route I don't get at all until I can see the whole picture
There is nothing to bridge there, no resistors, nothing, all direct parallel connections.
it sure does appear as re-order or God forbid "new order" to me from the part I can see
leave you to it (have fun) and off to bed (cannot do much wrong there ;)
Søren Mexico: There is nothing to bridge there, no resistors, nothing, all direct parallel connections.
Hi Søren,
Here is another Beomaster 4400 for you currently up for auction on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bang-Olufsen-Beomaster-4400-Stereo-Receiver-/271006132843?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3f19396a6b
Honestly I see some potential, but I don’t recommend this one for you. Just letting you know it is out there and the seller will ship to Mexico.
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Powered up today, after placing the last trimmers and one cap. But when checking the no load current, I connect my meter and powers up, then the meter shows some 3.5 mV, and then within 20-30 sec. goes up to 12 mV, Left channel. Right channel does the same but a bit slower and only up to 7.5 mV, I can adjust both channels, so thats good, but I dont like the slow coming up to max. adjusted both channels to 10 mV.
Then checked the reception without antenna, Got stations up to "3" on the reception meter. Put on a wire strip on the antenna, the meter went to "5" and stereo light came on.
Connected a pair of speakers and increased the volume to low listening level, checked bass, treble and balance poties, all works well without noise.
All switches and functions works, FM presets even so, but turning on and of a too loud bump from the speakers, right more than left.
After 10 min play the 5TR2 gets hot, burn finger hot, turned of. I have 15 and 35V currents, the 3 power bridges are new, so I will have to find out why the TR2 gets hot.
On the PCB 4 board I found the the tracks on the small RCA connector PCB damaged, I solved that as you see on the pic
So if anyone has an idea or solutions about the heat and the strange behavior powering up, I will be happy, if not, I will continue hunting down the failures. All alone.
Life, or life-style never goes in a straight line, but you ARE making real progress, and remember you like a challenge. And in any case you should be proud of what you have achieved!
Of a less, OK much less important matter, Bob mentioned that dust is the killer of amplifiers and figuring mine must be filled to the max (I have 3 parrots in the house) so I opened it up and found the Beomaster 2400 remarkably dust free. It was dusty under the adjustment cover, but not inside.
The door hinge mechanism has been over filled with oil which went just everywhere and took FOREVER to clean up, but that is now done.
Then I had a belated brain storm, if I took photos of the inside of the Beomaster it might be obvious to the cognoscenti if my Beomaster was totally original or revamped.
I would love to hear what you think of my Beomaster under the link Beomaster Failure Rate. Check it out when you have time and kindly let me know what you think.
Hi,
looking good
when you've made those connections between your RCA & PCB did you cut the tracks (from the previous section of the picture I thought I've seen different order...
As per your TR2 - I'd check resistors and R3 in particular
keep them coming - great job
bob
Søren Mexico: On the PCB 4 board I found the the tracks on the small RCA connector PCB damaged, I solved that as you see on the pic So if anyone has an idea or solutions about the heat and the strange behavior powering up, I will be happy, if not, I will continue hunting down the failures. All alone.
Just got this from Sonavor (John), Beoworld is amazing.John I owe you one
But I'm still struggling with the 5TR2 heat, took out the TR2 and checked it with the diode tester, As TR2 was out I could test the TR1 on board, also OK, will have to unsolder the R3 and 5 to test them, 01C1 is OK as well, the 15V is right on the money, the 35V are a little high (36,2), but I have 120 to 125 coming in so thats a natural.
Very cool, John.
Yes it is true; the guys in BeoWorld ARE amazing. The incredible expert help that is offered so freely would be impossible to duplicate.
Beyond that Martin does remarkable work having rebuilt my Beogram 8000 motherboard and refurbished my Beocord 9000.
However there are also selfless acts of kindness. A BeoWorld member, who prefers not to be credited with his unbelievable generosity, actually sent me gratis all the parts that were broken in shipment of my favorite Bang & Olufsen product, the crown jewel of my collection, my Beogram 4000. Without him this Beogram would not have the distinction of being one to two working Beogram 4000’s in North America.
Once I had my Beogram 4000 functioning flawlessly it suddenly died and nothing I could do managed to correct the issue I was having. As such I sent it to Martin who found that my entire problem was the fact that this Beogram 4000 was intended for 240V (Germany) while here in North America we are 120V….so it had the wrong fuse. Martin took care of several minor issues in addition to the fuse replacement and then went to the real trouble of shipping my Beogram from Germany, which greatly reduced the shipping change vis-à-vis shipping from Denmark.
This is a VERY nice group of people!
I'm glad to pitch in and help on your project Søren. I think everyone here is happy to lend a hand to keep great audio equipment like this in good working order. I wish I had an answer for you on your TR2 heating problem. My workbench is in disarray right now as I am in the middle of a couple of projects but if I can find some room I will try and see how hot the TR2 in my BM4400 gets.
-sonavor
I checked the temp. on 5TR2 tokk 5 min. to get to 70 degrees C, then I turned of the 4400, let it cool down, and continued looking for failures.
Everything around from and to the TR1 And 2, is OK, so I went a little farther,this is the -34V supply, OK, but when I check after the Zeners D102 and 3 I get after 102 -34V and after 103 -24V, should be -2.7V and -12V, at Base of 0IC102 I have -1.1V OK, at the base of 0IC103 I have -21V OK. at the base of TR119, I have -34 V, where the f--- do they come from, Help please. I checked the zeners and resistors connected around there and they show correct values
"at the base of TR119, I have -34 V"
Sounds about right too, I think.
Martin
5TR2 supplies power to several circuits, including two identical 24V supplies for the left and right tonecontrols, a 33V forthe preamps and an IC in the tuner section.(It does not supply the output stages).
Maybe you can narrow down the problem by disconnecting one circuit at a time from the supply (lifting D6 will cut awayboth 24V supplies, lifting the collector pin of 5TR3 and 5TR4 will cut away the supply to the left and right channeltonecontrols respectively. Lifting D1 (near TR1) will cut away the 33V.The tuner IC, I think, would rarely cause any trouble but lifting its pin 13 would cut its supply.
Dillen: 5TR2 supplies power to several circuits, including two identical 24V supplies for the left and right tonecontrols, a 33V forthe preamps and an IC in the tuner section.(It does not supply the output stages). Maybe you can narrow down the problem by disconnecting one circuit at a time from the supply (lifting D6 will cut awayboth 24V supplies, lifting the collector pin of 5TR3 and 5TR4 will cut away the supply to the left and right channeltonecontrols respectively. Lifting D1 (near TR1) will cut away the 33V.The tuner IC, I think, would rarely cause any trouble but lifting its pin 13 would cut its supply. Martin
Thanks Martin, will start that tomorrow, Mex time, getting late here, will do my very best to find the failure.
All wrong
More wrong
Wrong post
Got it right this time
All on. 5TR2 goes to 75 degree C after 10 min. and stays there
Lifting any of the pins, 5TR3/4 C, D1, 2IC2 gives 65 degrees C
Lifting D6 gives 52 degrees C
Question: Which kind of capacitor is 5C138-238, its marked 47uF 10V, LN. ROE, color Golden, Axial They shows 62 Ohms on my ESR measured off board
And which temp. on 5R40 PTC
All functions and lamps are OK, but I cant adjust no load current ( L is 6 mV R is 5 mV), the big 0.18 Ohms resistors shows different values (0.0 to 4 Ohms) measured on PCB
Advise appreciated
After reading your latest post, along with so many others I simply have to ask how is it that you say you don’t know much about electronics?
Just from your latest post I would think you have a degree in electrical engineering.
Piaf:Just from your latest post I would think you have a degree in electrical engineering.
Nice of you to say so, but the geeks, (read EL - engineers) are laughing their but of.
Søren Mexico:Which kind of capacitor is 5C138-238
I do have an BM4400 unrepaired with "stolen" power transistors here opened where the C138 show some 60uF and some 0.4R ESR (in-circuit).
They are axial but mounted "standing" and they are blue. Should be a standard 47u / 10V cap anyway.
But I found a note in the SM:
So it looks like it's not a bad idea to swap them...
I planned to repair this one in parallel with yours but you've got way ahead of me and I'm running out of time lately
And yes, all of my idle currents tend to settle only after some minutes with totally different currents at the very start.
And the 4 Ohms on one of the 0R18 seems strange - I wouldn't worry with anything between 0.0 and 0.5R as the standard DVMs are not really reliable with low Ohms.
EDIT: 4 Ohms sound like you're measuring connected speakers ???
Gunther
No speakers connected, will desolder the 0.18 Ohms and measure off board, I will change the C138/238. If the 0.18 Ohms are bad I will have to get them from the US, checked in my "never throw anything away" box and only found 2 pcs. 0.22 Ohms.
I will slow down a little so you can catch up. I am worried about the 75 degrees on TR2.
And thank you for helping was starting to feel alone here.
You're not alone Søren. We are just watching and waiting for you to fix it (kidding of course). I am swamped right now so I haven't been able to do anything but read your progress.-sonavor
My Beomaster's TR2 also gets quite hot. 5C138 is an ordinary electrolytic.
I too follow your thread and this is beginning to sound really tricky. On several occasions I wanted to help but then another post just showed I was not on the right track. Every time I get a new BM 4400 Mexico in my email box I jump on it, hoping you have finally found the solution...
A tough one.
Jacques
chartz: Hi Søren, My Beomaster's TR2 also gets quite hot. 5C138 is an ordinary electrolytic. I too follow your thread and this is beginning to sound really tricky. On several occasions I wanted to help but then another post just showed I was not on the right track. Every time I get a new BM 4400 Mexico in my email box I jump on it, hoping you have finally found the solution... A tough one.
Jacques: Do you have a possibility to check the temp on 5TR2, my digital multimeter has a temp. range and lead.
I have sound coming to the speakers, and I had the same failure (sound but could not adjust idle current) in my BM 4000. So there is hope.
I took out the 0.18 resistors yesterday, 1 turned out bad, 0.00 Ohms, will use a 0.22 Ohm and change the C1/238 with new ones.
I checked the temp. with FM on, volume and tone controls on "0" no speakers connected, within 10 min. it comes up to 75 degrees, I then connected speakers and run on low volume, stays at 75, volume at 50%, stays at 75, checked Phono, tape, all presets, stays at 75, filters, line, AFC,speaker 1/2 stays at 75. I dont like this temp but maybe its correct. The power TRs stays cool after 30 min. at low volume.
If the power transistors stay cool - they barely get hand-warm on my Beomaster 4400 and 8000, a little bit more at the Beomaster 6000 fins - then you're fine.
I wouldn't be too worried about the 24V supply, it only powers the low-level parts of the receiver anyway. Should anything go wrong, it will blow without further damage - unlikely at 75C. You might just get a loud hum!
I guess the cooler is still fitted! The bakelite PCB is quite burnt underneath my TR2.
chartz:I guess the cooler is still fitted! The bakelite PCB is quite burnt underneath my TR2.
Cooler fitted, and with heat paste, and heavy burn mark under and around TR2.
I have had some damages because of problems with the power lines coming to the house, 2 times I nearly had fires because of over/underload, even with no breaks or surge protectors, so I'm very careful with heat and what I connect and where. We have a new power company since 2 years and its a lot better now, very few black outs and the feed is mostly stable at 127V, so touch wood that it will stay so.
Here a typical power line, getting better, but like that in every street everywhere in Mex. city, slowly they are updating the whole grid. Below the transformer, in habituated areas you will see various wires connected directly to the power lines, thats when someone is stealing power, the poorer the neighborhood, the more the wires.
Hello Søren,
Every place is different, but I used to live in a hotspot for thunderstorms and lightning strikes and the local power company offered a whole house serge protector (for a monthly fee) but guaranteed that if any electrical item in the house was damaged it would be replaced no questions asked. This, of course did not cover sensitive items like computers, microwave ovens, and stereo equipment, but everything else.
Prior to having the whole house surge protector lightning struck in-between my house and the neighbors, blew out my burglar alarms system and fried my television.
At my neighbor’s it was worse as the oven door blew open in a fiery explosion with their 8 year old son sitting on the kitchen floor.
On another occasion lightning fried my first Beogram 4002 and literally blew the trip off the needle.
So as an additional precaution beyond the whole house surge protector I also had additional surge protectors for the computers and my main stereo.
Never had a problem with anything ever again.
I don’t know if your power company offers such a service, but if they do I recommend it with all my heart! Electrical contractors might also be a source for such protection.
The weekend is coming... Let's hope you're going to progress, nay, fix the little scoundrel!
Good luck then!
chartz: The weekend is coming... Let's hope you're going to progress, nay, fix the little scoundrel! Good luck then!
No such luck, just got an emergency work for the weekend, the pay is to good to say no.
Soooo?