ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
chartz:Also, I obviously look for a non-functional one for less than €100
Looking at pics of the BC 3500 I like the black face more, as for the languages, I was living in Sweden and Germany and now in Mexico. so I had to learn, never studied any of them, I tried to learn French, went to evening school, but could only attend 1/3 of the lessons, so after a couple of month I gave up.
In about 2 weeks I will start again with the BM 4400, finishing P45 today, building a dim bulb tester today and tomorrow, and will test the P45 to see (hear) where I want to use them.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Hi Jacques,
I don’t know what your benchmark for sound quality is like, but I would be actually shocked if you were disappointed in a BeoCenter 9500.
I have been babbling away about the travails of my BeoCenter 9000, which I just adore…… absolutely faultless gorgeous design! Just yesterday thanks to Leslie I got my CD issue solved and I use this unit daily.
The 9500 is a considerable improvement over the 9000 and as long as you are not looking for the power of a Beomaster 8000, I think you will be pleased.
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Thanks Jeff. I'll keep looking for a defective unit then!
My only criterion of choice is cosmetics. It should be near-mint and non-functional!
Jacques
Do consider the source, but coming from an electronics coward, are you SURE you want to tackle a BeoCenter 9500? These are COMPLEX beasts with numerous computer controlled functions.
In addition the two internal components (CD and Cassette) are unavailable and parts are not entirely easy to find.
Just a word of caution.
You are just arousing me more Jeff!
I'd take the challenge!
OK Jacques, I dare you! In fact I double-dare you!
My BeoCenter 9000 is one of my favourite possessions after the Beogram 4000 and my Seeburg M100B jukebox.
The Seeburg amp is in Vancouver for rebuilding, so I feel like I lost a friend….. temporally. The shop wants FOUR months to fix it. Uggh!
The Beogram 4000 is my absolute pride and joy, absolute perfection still or in motion.
Then comes the stunning BeoCenter 9000. An object d’art at its pinnacle, in my opinion. The sound is not extraordinary, but more than capable and the 9500 is even better.
Please keep me posted on this adventure.
Piaf: Hi Jacques, Do consider the source, but coming from an electronics coward, are you SURE you want to tackle a BeoCenter 9500? These are COMPLEX beasts with numerous computer controlled functions. In addition the two internal components (CD and Cassette) are unavailable and parts are not entirely easy to find. Just a word of caution. Jeff
I have had several 9000 and 9500 by now, and not one of these had any problems with computer or control parts. All of them had problems with CD, tape, glass panels or at least muting relay, oh, and one with power supply. So, non-functional is not neceseary hard to fix...B&O is quality
blah-blah and photographs as needed
Piaf: Then comes the stunning BeoCenter 9000. An object d’art at its pinnacle, in my opinion. The sound is not extraordinary, but more than capable and the 9500 is even better. Jeff
My second major B&O purchase, back in 1986, was a BC9000. I kept it until around 2003, it was my pride and joy. Selling it got me into the re-seller business and I have had many of them since those days. I have also had many, many BC9500 . I can state that there is absolutely no difference in the sound quality between the two, apart from the addition of powerlink!
Also, no difference in the amount of "computer control", they are the same, although the 9500 has a bit more "bling" because of the polished panels.
Regards Graham
Hi Graham,
Esthetic differences notwithstanding, the BeoCenter 9500 had 40W of power as compared to the BeoCenter 9000’s 30W.
The 9500 also had two-way infra red communications which the 9000 didn’t.
Further the cassette drive utilized one motor instead of three.
Now don’t get me wrong, if you can convince me that the BeoCenter 9000 is superior to the BeoCenter 9500 I would be absolutely DELIGHTED!
As you may know mine was dumped in the trash at a recycling facility and took eight LONG months to get 100% back in shape.
Had I gone shopping for a BeoCenter I would have chosen the 9500, but as I was gifted with the 9000, that’s the one I have.
Good to know and encouraging!
Sorry to say that a comparison of the specs on the amplifier reveals that thhey are the same!!
Not surprising, since they are the same amplifier, the sound quality will be te same.
You are implying that the 9500 will sound, in some way, superior. I'm saying that there is not a jot of difference between them and you are being led up the garden path by those polished panels!
I was merely quoting the printed specs at BeoCentral.
As I have never seen a BeoCenter 9500 I can hardly be seduced by the polished panels, but wouldn’t mind being.
If you say it is the same amp, who am I to question you?
I am not a great believer in printed specs but look at the printed specs on this site.
This thread seems like coated in Teflon, the topic just doesn't stick to it.
--mika
tournedos: This thread seems like coated in Teflon, the topic just doesn't stick to it.
You are right, we are way off topic, but it started out correctly , then Jeff and I started using it as a chatting thread, and others joined, The reason is that I had to wait for spares coming from DK, they are here now, and this coming weekend I will get the thread back on course.
As thread starter I welcome you to our chat
Søren Mexico:This thread seems like coated in Teflon, the topic just doesn't stick to it.
Søren is entirely correct, this thread, as well as others has deviated far from the initial posting vis-à-vis Søren’s Beomaster 4400.
As an occasional educator I can tell you without hesitation that lacking order and structure lessons degenerate into a meaningless mass of confusion. However adhering to a ridged and non-evolving dialog NOTHING will be learned.
Case in point Jacques talked about taking on a BeoCenter 9500 project, which led to Graham to question my views on the differences between the BeoCenters in this series, and from that I learned there are not a great deal of difference other than cosmetics and the two-way infra red remote.
I have put a good deal of time and effort (EIGHT months) into restoring this BeoCenter 9000 and as a direct result of this off the point dialog I gained a whole new perspective and respect for my 9000.
Once Søren gets back to work on his Beomaster 4400, this thread will return to its original intent….. not to worry.
I for one look forward to the 4400 exchange with GREAT anticipation, however in the mean time several members learned something and I call that a genuine value and benefit.
i see its a old topic but my respect for your job well done!
On Beocentral, you can read that the receiver guts of the Beocenter 9000/9500 series are the same as the ones found in the Beomaster 4500!
Everything is crystal-clear now! I know why you are so fond of it!
Beomaster 4400 (to stay on topic)
Jacques,
I loved what you said, every word, with special emphasis on your witty ending….. but unfortunately, I fear it is not correct.
According to Tim and Nick Jarman, who wrote what some consider the definitive book on Bang & Olufsen, the BeoCenter 9000 has a 30W per channel amplifier based on the Beomaster 3300 while the Beomaster 4500 has a 40W amplifier.
The BeoCenter 9500 also has a 40W amplifier and considering the manufacture time frames: BeoCenter 9000 (1987-1988) Beomaster 3300 (1987-1989) and BeoCenter 9500 (1989-1993) Beomaster 4500 (18989-1992) and think we can fairly conclude that the 9000 is based on the 3300 while the 9500 is based on the 4500.
I know, I just ruined your delightful scenario and I am sorry for that. I truly am.
Now it is true that I am “over the moon” regarding the BeoCenter 9000, but that may have more to do with its gorgeous looks than its sound quality, which honestly is not in the same league with the Beomaster 4500.
I also checked the Owner’s manuals which confirmed the 30W amplifier in the 9000, but confusingly enough stated the Beomaster 4500 has a 55W amplifier. Personally I go with what the Jarman brothers have to say.
Now in keeping with your clever ending, BEOMASTER 4400, staying on subject!
Piaf: Jacques, I loved what you said, every word, with special emphasis on your witty ending….. but unfortunately, I fear it is not correct. According to Tim and Nick Jarman, who wrote what some consider the definitive book on Bang & Olufsen, the BeoCenter 9000 has a 30W per channel amplifier based on the Beomaster 3300 while the Beomaster 4500 has a 40W amplifier. The BeoCenter 9500 also has a 40W amplifier and considering the manufacture time frames: BeoCenter 9000 (1987-1988) Beomaster 3300 (1987-1989) and BeoCenter 9500 (1989-1993) Beomaster 4500 (18989-1992) and think we can fairly conclude that the 9000 is based on the 3300 while the 9500 is based on the 4500. I know, I just ruined your delightful scenario and I am sorry for that. I truly am. Now it is true that I am “over the moon” regarding the BeoCenter 9000, but that may have more to do with its gorgeous looks than its sound quality, which honestly is not in the same league with the Beomaster 4500. I also checked the Owner’s manuals which confirmed the 30W amplifier in the 9000, but confusingly enough stated the Beomaster 4500 has a 55W amplifier. Personally I go with what the Jarman brothers have to say. Now in keeping with your clever ending, BEOMASTER 4400, staying on subject! Jeff
Yes, to stay in subject, BM4400 has discrete power amp, while BM 3300, BM4500, BC9500 ALL have same STK4151-V hydrib driven with 33v slipt supply. What is intresting is, that hydrib manufacturer (Sanyo) rates this hydrib to 30W at split 28v supply.
The power outputs of these models are confusing mainly because different methods of measuring outputs were used during the life of these models. I have seen the 9500 quoted as having 85W a channel in some documents. The Beomaster 5500 started at 55W and at the time it became a 7000, had magically increased to 110W, all with no change in the power amplifier.
I agree with Graham here - the 9500 etc has a 30W hybrid amplifier. It is fine, though not as good as the 55W amplifier in the 5500 etc. I would have a 9500 over any of the other variants though - two way control and Powerlink sockets. Also the best cassette in the early versions and a great CD player.
Peter
As I said Peter, the power outputs were written by the marketing department bods in the pub, depending on the competition at that particular time!!
I have been there and done it in a similar but non-related industry. After all this time, the punters still don't get it!
You can't change the "newly packaged" product because it is already in production, so you change the specs to suit people who are impressed by that sort of thing. It helps the sales department to sell your "new" stuff against competition that is really evolving or moving on with new technology.
The paper power output makes the product automatically sound better, to some ears.
I have never been into two way control but powerlink is essential if you want to use the modern range of active speakers. My choice would also be a 9500 although it does take up more space than the stacking systems. I have been in love with basic design since I first saw one in 1986 and just had to have one.
Mine is on loan to a friend but I agree with you. This has to be the best design B&O came up with and the ergonomics are simply brilliant. The electronic covers - the way only the correct controls are illuminated at any one time - are a work of genius and is truly a machine that anyone can use straight away. To get all the performance and extras, you need to know a bit more, but it is still fantastic. Also looks modern even today.
Peter:This has to be the best design B&O came up with and the ergonomics are simply brilliant. The electronic covers - the way only the correct controls are illuminated at any one time - are a work of genius and is truly a machine that anyone can use straight away.
I have a few complaints - it's very difficult to use up close in the dark, as the source buttons aren't lit at all! They should light up with the wave of the hand, or something. You can slide your finger from the middle of the panel to the right until it turns on radio, but it could be better...
Hello Peter and Graham,
With all this (new to me) information my head is swirling in confusion.
Are you saying that the amplifier in Beomaster 3300, Beomaster 4500, BeoCenter 9000, and BeoCenter 9500 are all identical?
Peter speaks of a hybrid in the 9500; does that indicate that it is different from a non-hybrid model?
As a stereo expert I am a modest fellow with much to be modest about…. however I find it very difficult to believe that the amplifier in this BeoCenter 9000 is identical to the one in my Beomaster 4500. No, that just can’t be right.
Hey, if I am wrong, than I am wrong…. I am rather used to it, but from where I sit the BeoCenter 9000, as least MY BeoCenter 9000 sounds remarkably similar to the Beomaster 2400.
On the esthetics of the 9000 series BeoCenters I couldn’t agree with Peter MORE. The design is indeed brilliant. The way the doors operate, the lights that only appear when appropriate, the lamp colour choice….. well I am simply smitten with the series and although I would rather have a 9500, and I more than pleased with this 9000, which came from a dumpster.
In case anyone is worried, Søren will be working on his Beomaster 4400 this weekend and this thread will get back on subject. In the mean time, I appreciate the information.
Hi Jeff
Hope I did not make you swirling...
If you look at service manuals (bizarry sm rate for ex. 9500 at 80W! bollocks say I), they have indentical powerstage, all constructed from same hydrib.
If you aren't familiar with this technics, hydrib is a pack what keeps inside most of power stages parts, size of cigarettebox, versus for ex 4400 witch parts are discretely on circuitboard. If you G STK4151, you find lot material about this hydrib family.
As often happens on this site, I find myself out of my depth and unable to properly communicate with others so much more technically skilled than I.
However I am always flattered that you folks think that I might comprehend what you are trying to explain to me.
If I get what you are saying it appears that these amplifiers were all of the same family and very similar in output, the only difference being marketing.
OK, I see, and as I am in no position to question you guys, I accept this. My BeoCenter 9000 sounds quite different from my Beomaster 4500…. for whatever reason.
Mm, yes, it is quite possible. All of these are after all individuals, more or less. Different amount of use, slightly different tolerances in components ect. And I was concentrated on output power only, I have not look closer circuity before power amp. There might be differences that makes the difference.
I dont know why they claims 2x80W for 9500 in manual, because this amp's THD increases dramatically after 40W, and in fact it is quite impossible to get 80W out from it.
Any way, as we know, hearing is not linear, and so difference between 30W and 40W is minor, something like difference between 20 and 21 celsius on summerday... I guess that normally wery few of us do use powerlevels over 15W, witch is fine in this case, because most of amps have their sweetspot somewhere at 70% of max., in STK4151 case it's about 20W.
What's the old adage? A double of power is a 3 dB increase in SPL. And 3 dB is the lowest increase in SPL a human can notice? Something like that.
Back when I paid attention to such things, the standard method of measuring amplifier output was to attach a purely resistive load to the amplifier and increase the output until you hit a specified THD.
What has that test method got to do with listening to music with real-world loudspeakers? Nothing.
Once again, listening in your home with your other equipment is the only way to know.
EDIT
BM4400, Soren
OK, I get it; you guys are not in the least bit impressed by power wattage ratings, factual or otherwise. That’s fine with me.
So let me try posing the question this way: Is there any difference in the amplifier section of the Beomaster 3300 and Beomaster 4500? And likewise between the BeoCenter 9000 and BeoCenter 9500?
Peter states that the BeoCenter 9500 has a hybrid 30W amplifier. Great, so what does the BeoCenter 9000 have in it? Are they the same?
The reason I ask these questions is you never know when a BeoCenter 9500 might become available, but if there is no difference between the 9000 and 9500 in the amplifier section, the improved CD, cassette, and two-way remote are not sufficient reasons for me to add a second BeoCenter to my already insane collection.
Rich:A double of power is a 3 dB increase in SPL. And 3 dB is the lowest increase in SPL a human can notice? Something like that.
Correct. And a perceived doubling of sound level means ten (10) times the output power.
//Bo.A long list...
They are ALL based on the same STK4151 v 30 watt hybrid amplifier.
When B&O want to impress the hell out more gullible punters, they change the criteria under which the measurements are made, in order to come up with a bigger number.
Wow! an instantaneous increase in power and quality of sound.
Now i'll blow your mind with this one..........The Beosystem 4500 is no more than a Beocenter 9500 in a collection of little boxes. The internals of the Beomaster, the Beocord and the Beogram CD are identical to those that are packed into the one box that is the Beocenter 9500 which is an updated version of your Beocenter 9000!!!!
Only very early 9000's had the 14 bit CD electronics. Most had the same 16 bit DAC that is fitted in the 9500. You would need to have very good ears to tell the difference any way.
I suggest that the various tape mechanisms and associated electronics would need to be set up by an expert in the field before any differences became apparent.
All in all, unless you are a two way comms freak or are impressed by the aesthetics of the later model, I suggest that you keep your money in your pocket..............unless.......I was trying to sell you a 9500, then I would tell you that your 9000 is a piece of sh1t.
Hello Graham,
Well isn’t that interesting?…. and highly informative! Thank you, as you most certainly have answered my questions.
As I am not a two-way communication freak and t while the look of the 9500 is great, it is not THAT different from the 9000….. so I’ll just leave my wallet out of this.
All that marketing aside with all these different machines out there I would have expected them to sound pretty much alike.
Maybe it is just me but my BeoCenter 9000 sounds NOTHING and I mean NOTHING like my Beomaster 4500. If anything my BeoCenter 9000 very much sounds like my Beomaster 2400. Note I never used the world “the” but always “my” referring to these units.
In the end it is usage and quality control that account for the differences, I assume, but it does present a problem when one buys one of these amplifiers sight unseen (and unheard) as the unit that arrives may not be what one is expecting or hoping for.
I love my BeoCenter 9000 for its looks and its convenience….. that is everything remote controllable, but I wouldn’t choose it for its sound quality, which is quite adequate, but not stellar. My Beomaster 4500 was stellar, but with it out of service, that is a moot point.
Thanks again for clearing this up for me, which is most appreciated!
joeyboygolf: Now i'll blow your mind with this one..........The Beosystem 4500 is no more than a Beocenter 9500 in a collection of little boxes. The internals of the Beomaster, the Beocord and the Beogram CD are identical to those that are packed into the one box that is the Beocenter 9500 which is an updated version of your Beocenter 9000!!!!
But when I look in the catalogue from 1991 the specs says:
Beomaster 4500: 2 x 25 W (DIN/IEC) 2 x 55 W (Long-term max.)
Beocenter 9500: 2 x 35 W (DIN/IEC) 2 x 80 W (Long-term max.)
Harmonic distortion (this is translated from Danish -don't know if it's called so in English ) :
BM 4500: <0,18% BC 9500: <0,1%
Dynamic Headroom:
BM 4500: 1,6db BC 9500: 1 db
-why this difference in specs if it's excactly the same amps..?
Hi Steffen,
I don’t know either why different published specs for the same amp, but Graham feels it was the doing of the marketing folks with the competition in mind.
What puzzles me and this is not going to get answered is why the same amps sound so completely different.
I acknowledge that each amp is a little different, a different component here and a different one there, wear and tear from usage, etc.
However my Beomaster 4500 had the most glorious, full bodied mellow sound, in a word REAL. Whereas my BeoCenter 9000 produced a pleasant sound, but utterly unremarkable and if one closed their eyes no imagination in the world would make one believe that the sound was real.
Perhaps if I spent a bit of time adjusting the tone controls on the BeoCenter 9000 it would sound a bit better, but comparing all amps flat, with the tone controls set to neutral it is the least best of all my amps.
Even my Beomaster 2400 with its S45 speakers sounds slightly better, if similar to the BeoCenter 9000. A genuine comparison is difficult as these amps are in different rooms and the S45’s are sitting on plush carpet, whereas the BeoCenter’s S75’s are on stands over hardwood floors giving them a distinct advantage.
It is a lot like children, we love them all, but some are more talented than the others.
Steffen: But when I look in the catalogue from 1991 the specs says: Beomaster 4500: 2 x 25 W (DIN/IEC) 2 x 55 W (Long-term max.) Beocenter 9500: 2 x 35 W (DIN/IEC) 2 x 80 W (Long-term max.) Harmonic distortion (this is translated from Danish -don't know if it's called so in English ) : BM 4500: <0,18% BC 9500: <0,1% Dynamic Headroom: BM 4500: 1,6db BC 9500: 1 db -why this difference in specs if it's excactly the same amps..?
Very basic.If you allow more distortion, you can crank out more power.
Martin
Steffen: joeyboygolf: Now i'll blow your mind with this one..........The Beosystem 4500 is no more than a Beocenter 9500 in a collection of little boxes. The internals of the Beomaster, the Beocord and the Beogram CD are identical to those that are packed into the one box that is the Beocenter 9500 which is an updated version of your Beocenter 9000!!!! But when I look in the catalogue from 1991 the specs says: Beomaster 4500: 2 x 25 W (DIN/IEC) 2 x 55 W (Long-term max.) Beocenter 9500: 2 x 35 W (DIN/IEC) 2 x 80 W (Long-term max.) Harmonic distortion (this is translated from Danish -don't know if it's called so in English ) : BM 4500: <0,18% BC 9500: <0,1% Dynamic Headroom: BM 4500: 1,6db BC 9500: 1 db -why this difference in specs if it's excactly the same amps..?
Looking at the relevant service manuals, the power supplies are slightly different as is pre amp circuitry but the main power amp used in both 4500 and 9500 is the same STK 4151 running at 33v and the output circuits are identical!
Specifications are written by the marketing people having consulted the product development department with regard to possibilities. Published figures will reflect whatever the marketing people want to achieve, anyway who is going to check and if anybody does, they will blame different measurement conditions!!
Martin,
But that does not make for a better amplifier, just a louder one.
It has been interesting to see how wide a thread can go, the latest, interesting about power in 4500 9000 BMs, a time long it was a chat thread for Jeff, me and some more, I enjoyed all of it.
But gentlemen, its time to get back to where it started, to the BM 4400 Mexico, I have since some time gotten the spares from Martin, I have stocked up with solder, cleaners, Solder wick, new solder station (and have gotten familiar with the same), build a Dim Bulb Tester, I have new batteries in stock for my instruments, the camera and a spare battery is fully charged, my eyeglasses are cleaned and I´m mentally ready to go. I´m also stock sober
Tonight I made some details of the schematics and studied these just to bring myself into the matter again.
The plan is tomorrow to make an inventory of the spare parts, as you sure remember, I will change all component in the end stages, right and left channel. After the inventory, I will start changing the components in groups or, where that is not possible, one by one, after desoldering I will clean the area, component and solder side, thereafter attach the new components. I will work parallel right and left, and will on printed schematics note the progress.
It will be slow going as the print on the solder side is in some parts unreadable, on the component side it is only missing in few areas.
So Dear Sirs (Madams ?), keep to the thread, constructive critics are welcome, jokes and good advices even so. I will do my very best to keep you updated with photos.
I feel we were just keeping the thread going ready for this point! Looking forward to seeing your progress. Best of luck!