Death Spiral?

that new Bentley SUV is quite astonishing isn't it.....not sure whats worse, thats it downright ugly, or just downright unremarkable......i was short of shocked by it when i drove past one the other day........

Sandyb:

that new Bentley SUV is quite astonishing isn't it.....not sure whats worse, thats it downright ugly, or just downright unremarkable......i was short of shocked by it when i drove past one the other day........

It demonstrates to me that if a company has got a great heritage, some people will be willing to spend a lot on anything they make, but only up to a point. Ultimately poor design will not sell in the long run. Bentley and B&O both risk falling into the same trap (or death spiral).

Graham

Millemissen:

I am sure that the price of the new tv's will be comparable with the price of other premium tv's.......when you consider the costs for the specific B&O add-ons/features.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

I disagree with this. A very good Panasonic TV can be bought in the U.K. for £800-1000 if you buy last year's model and for another £500-1000 you can buy a 5.1 with a receiver.

The second development in the last 10 years is that despite advances in 64-channel audio, most TV viewers aren't bothering with surround sound or multichannel audio from movies. In the 1990s and 2000s everyone was excited and it was all the rage. Evryobody bought a surround sound receiver and lots of speakers. I can't remember the last time I was in an average home in the U.K. when I saw a surround sound setup. Average Joe has fallen out of love of with surround sound for films and nobody can be bothered. I mentioned a B&O Tv to my wife and her mouth hit the floor when I told her how much a Bv11 would cost with surround sound speakers. I waxed lyrical and evangelised about all the technology, antireectivr coating, all the testing, the picture devolemnt technology... She just stared at me and patiently waited to say "by that doesn't interest me and I don't care and neither do the kids!" I hate to admit she was right - neither her nor the kids are interested in the sound quality or the picture quality. She's seen the picture on a new Avant and she said "yeah it looks nice and moves on stand, but I can't really see any difference in the picture". Aside from us Beonutters, the Audiophool crowd of grey haired ale drinking men at hifi shows spending £15000 on a Valve amp or turntable, no one cares about sound quality, surround sound or picture quality. The cheap TV from Costco is "good enough" for 9.99999%. There you have have it; that's where we are approaching 2020. B&O have an uphill struggle that is getting steeper. Costco for fraction of B&O is good enough and if it isn't they might spend 2-3 times more for the B&O of yesteryear but not 8-10 more for the B&O of today.

Obviously I think most would agree..I.e that consumers tastes have shifted in a way that makes selling hi end audio gear tougher...they have been relatively successful with the Play line so I think they are aware and have responded

Their issue is with the higher priced line, where they are fishing in a small pool.....not sure what's the bigger problem here, the lack of new iconic designs or the software issues that have plagued recent releases?

seethroughyou:

Millemissen:

I am sure that the price of the new tv's will be comparable with the price of other premium tv's.......when you consider the costs for the specific B&O add-ons/features.

MM

I disagree with this. A very good Panasonic TV can be bought in the U.K. for £800-1000 if you buy last year's model and for another £500-1000 you can buy a 5.1 with a receiver.

Sure, if that is what you need, why pay more? Just go for it!

You could even save the 500-100 for the receiver....if you don't care for more than a picture and tiny sound from a flat screen.

As you write, that is what most people decide for...for various reasons.

But ----- this is about B&O and what B&O can do in addition!

 

So why compare those prices?

If you want 'this car', you don't buy 'that car' or expect that it will cost as little as 'that car' (insert name of car).

The great question here is, will B&O have enough costumers for the products, that they make/are dedicated to make - or not?

It is a niche market (always was, by the way) - will that niche be big enough to survive and consist?

 

MM

 

It comes back to being able to "wear" a Bentley or a Breitling wherever you go and get admiration from your peers who never visit your house. The Bentayga is a baroque symbol of something to which not all of us aspire but until the Rolls Royce equivalent appears it's the ultimate way of spending your car allowance!

im sure it's difficult to get tax relief on audio unless you run a hotel with depreciating TVs .

 

 

Interesting  to see what B&O can add to the signature panel !!,if they are using  it. LG can not even put their logo on it!!?,surely not going to bulk it up!shape wise, money-wise for sure

http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-OLED65G6V

They can camouflage that horrible cable that comes from the bottom of the panel. 

Millemissen:

Sure, if that is what you need, why pay more? Just go for it!

You could even save the 500-100 for the receiver....if you don't care for more than a picture and tiny sound from a flat screen.

As you write, that is what most people decide for...for various reasons.

But ----- this is about B&O and what B&O can do in addition!

So why compare those prices?

If you want 'this car', you don't buy 'that car' or expect that it will cost as little as 'that car' (insert name of car).

The great question here is, will B&O have enough costumers for the products, that they make/are dedicated to make - or not?

It is a niche market (always was, by the way) - will that niche be big enough to survive and consist?

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

You're missing the point I'm afraid. The point is that 20 years ago a top B&O Tv was 2-3 times the usual Sony/Panasonic etc... so it could draw in those with middling incomes who aspired to the beautiful integration of B&O but now B&O have alienated that market by their TVs being 8-10 times the usual. The increasing proportion of sales from Beoplay products is because the super-rich don't know what B&O is and have little interest and now the middle income sales are also drying up. Peter Sven Nostradamus prophecises B&O turning into a an accessories only company 20 years from now.

B&O are sending out a very mixed signal about the merits of their products.

The Beoplay range plus the latest on-the -wall hexagons are all about low-level background sound, maybe with some vague notions of sound directivty with clever use of algorithms.

The traditional approach, now seemingly being abandoned, was all about recreating a true sound stage with acoustic lenses etc.

Maybe you just have background Muzak or put your headphones on. 

Graham

the problem is you are both right.....

there are very good screens from mainstream brands available for around 1000GBP, and unless B&O use the very very best, 8000+ starts to look a stretch even for well off customers.......of course the mainstream brands now do premium screens for 3000-5000, so 8000 can be argued as semi-reasonable fi you value the non-picture aspects.......

with both being true, it does underline the need for B&O to get their TV offering right, be that software or, more importantly to me, use top top notch screens and video processing, the last of which they don't seem to be doing..and much as the upcoming OLEDs tick the screen tech box, it would be nice if the video processing was leading too......the choices / outcomes with the recent TV offering hasn't been good, and software aside, the screen choice and video processing is very poor for the price........the OLEDs should get them back on track somewhat.......an up to date OLED + B&O audio chops will be enough to keep their TV business going i'd guess.......

sad though that direction may be, it also reflects broader consumer preferences i would argue........

ed7:

Interesting  to see what B&O can add to the signature panel !!,if they are using  it. LG can not even put their logo on it!!?,surely not going to bulk it up!shape wise, money-wise for sure

http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-OLED65G6V

Aaah,, so that is where the Horizon design is from ?

/Jacob

Millemissen:

I am sure that the price of the new tv's will be comparable with the price of other premium tv's.......when you consider the costs for the specific B&O add-ons/features.

The thing is they are marketed as TVs, and very few people understand they're is more to it. Especially as other TVs have often better specs (on the paper that is)

I feel it is wrong to disparage 'ambient/directionless' sound as a step down from dedicated multi-speaker/multipoint 5.1/7.1/9.1/18.1 etc codecs. The home space/cost/logistics/wiring are all unattractive. If BnO could position themselves at the forefront of this paradigmatic home theatre change, then I say smart and Bravo!

Look at what it took to really optimize/address an audiophile *one seat/no friends* with the BL90.

No. The shape of future home-space sound is the Shape, the BS2 and its successors.

B

PhilLondon:

Millemissen:

 

I am sure that the price of the new tv's will be comparable with the price of other premium tv's.......when you consider the costs for the specific B&O add-ons/features.

The thing is they are marketed as TVs, and very few people understand they're is more to it. Especially as other TVs have often better specs (on the paper that is)

That has actually been an issue all the way back to the first Avant TV. People not knowing that it had Dolby Digital Surround and "multiroom" functionality, control of 3'rd party devices, never understood why the "just a Philips in a fancy box" should cost 3 times as much as the "original".

This is still a problem today, so in my opinion, B&O has not been good at actually marketing the tv's as "more than a TV". This is probably also why B&O has not been seen in tv commercials until "now", it would be too technical to explain, and too expensive in means om the cost pr second of commercial.

I don't know if this ever could be solved, as the people who don't "like" B&O tv's, never would spend the time actually understanding what the TV that costs 4 times as much, actually is capable of, compared to "just a tv".

/Jacob

PhilLondon:

The thing is they are marketed as TVs, and very few people understand they're is more to it. Especially as other TVs have often better specs (on the paper that is)

Sure, the question is: will these 'few people' be enough to keep the wheels turning?

On the other hand, what are they supposed to do?

Go around knocking on the front doors of the potential buyers???

imo it has never been easier to learn about/inform yourself, what the difference between a BV and a tv is.

Just have a look at the Youtube videos of today.

B&O is way more present in the (social) media/the press today than ever.

You can't force people to buy a BV.

Or should they make a BV stripped of all BV just to compete on price and reach the average costumer  ;-(

 

Dealers (at least in Denmark) are telling me, that the sales of the Horizon is going well!

I am not sure that there is a 'death spiral' at all!

 

MM

This discussion started with the closing of a Bang & Olufsen store closing in Atlanta.  It is true B&O has been failing in North America for a long time.  Even though I love the brand, the stores here have not been so good.  Until the recent recession, they would never take a trade in or give a discount.  Getting a B&O product repaired was a challenge.  I am convince they will leave North America.  However I have not completely given up on Bang and Olufsen.  I am planning on buying the new OLED Beovision providing that it is compatible with my other B&O products.  Also when B&O does leave North America, LG can repair the TV.  

Beoplay is doing okay in the US but the competition is intense.  I have an Amazon Echo which is not really a great design but it is really useful.  By voice command, I can control the lights, listen to any music I want, send a text, make a telephone call, listen to radio, and buy groceries if I desire.  The sound is not too bad also.  I know this all sounds silly and trivial but it is technology that will win in this arena.  Apple is rumored to be introducing a Siri based music player that can do many of the same things Amazon echo or Google home can do.  Beoplay will have to be more than good design.