ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Duels:isn't it called the Eclipse?
The integrated Netflix functionality cannot be removed in a SW upgrade, regardless of how few Eclipse sets are sold. Or?
BV Eclipse 65, BV5, BS Core, BL5, BL8000, BS9000, Beolit 12, A1, A2, P2, H8, H9i, H7, E8
BeoET: The integrated Netflix functionality cannot be removed in a SW upgrade, regardless of how few Eclipse sets are sold. Or?
To the best of my knowledge the Netflix app is part of the LG Smart TV platform and identifies itself to Netflix as an LG app, not a B&O one. Therefore I doubt they will be able to pinpoint the Eclipse sets for a "blanket removal".
.
Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
seethroughyou:What I don't understand is why one would pay nearly £10000 for a LG TV when you could just pay £3000 for the same LG Tv with the same video engine and a sound bar.
If you dont understand that, I guess you never understood Bang & Olufsen Television.
BV7 and BV12 was very bad value tv's. The Eclipse is way better in that sense.
Beovision Harmony 77" 2nd Gen, Beolab 5, Beolab 17, Beosound 1, Beoplay M3, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay Earset, Beoliving Intelligence
Lars Ladingkaer: svinaik: Lars, there are fixed costs in the business and there are variable costs. When you sell more volume, you spread the fixed cost over larger number so you net cost per TV will come down. I do not think the B&O looses money purely based upon the material / panel costs. It is the fixed overheads which have to be absorbed by the volume. If more volume, less cost per TV and if less volume, more cost per TV. Ok, here's some figures for your business case: In 2015 B&O made around 40.000 TV-sets The LG deal saves the company approx. 27 billion euro a year. /Lars
svinaik: Lars, there are fixed costs in the business and there are variable costs. When you sell more volume, you spread the fixed cost over larger number so you net cost per TV will come down. I do not think the B&O looses money purely based upon the material / panel costs. It is the fixed overheads which have to be absorbed by the volume. If more volume, less cost per TV and if less volume, more cost per TV.
Lars, there are fixed costs in the business and there are variable costs. When you sell more volume, you spread the fixed cost over larger number so you net cost per TV will come down. I do not think the B&O looses money purely based upon the material / panel costs. It is the fixed overheads which have to be absorbed by the volume. If more volume, less cost per TV and if less volume, more cost per TV.
Ok, here's some figures for your business case:
In 2015 B&O made around 40.000 TV-sets
The LG deal saves the company approx. 27 billion euro a year.
/Lars
It is not just that they are saving money (or loosing less).
It is much more the evolution of picture technology.
The video competences at B&O in Struer (all we knew and loved) are in the SD/HD world.
However, the world of UHD technology is a different breed.
Technologies like HDR (different formats!), Wide Color Space, High Frame Rate, 10bit, 12bit processing, OLED or LCD, Quantum Dots or even MicroLED, moving from 4K to 8K, new tuner specs, new video compression formats (and the licenses required) all this would require new specialists in a video department in Struer (which is far off from the places, where specialist usually are).
I am sure this would be out of reach for a small company like B&O - and things are moving fast (whether we want it or not).
A cooperation with one of the big brothers will provide instant access to these new technologies and the possibility to upgrade the displays/tv's without changing much on the audio side.
We may miss the good old times, where B&O was 'in charge' of the video engine.
I am afraid (well, I am sure) that they won't come back - we'll have to get used to it....
....or not!
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Emil Jensen:BV7 and BV12 was very bad value tv's. The Eclipse is way better in that sense.
Absolutely and utterly disagree!
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: Emil Jensen:BV7 and BV12 was very bad value tv's. The Eclipse is way better in that sense. Absolutely and utterly disagree!
Puncher can you show me how you would defend the pricing of the BV7 and BV12?
I think you can ask yourself that question in many luxury-brand situations. Why is there a market for expensive watches, when you can buy a cheap Seiko that even keeps time better? Buy a Porsche 911 when a lot of cheaper alternatives can get you just as fast from 0-100?
Why is this "not-real-B&O" becoming a problem now? Would people have preferred another Edge LED screen from Samsung, but with in-house video engine, that would still be far behind OLED in picture quality? ... And keeping the bad TV business for B&O.
I get why some are wondering why they can't get both OLED and in-house video processing and I think it comes down to costs. B&Os TV devision needs to be a healthy business or they will simple be forced to shut it down. Easy as that. The Eclipse is the offer on the table, and if there is no takers, this could easily be one of the last B&O TVs. And ... Contrast screen? Apart from getting a glass front on the TV that might cause dust problems, what benefit would it do to a TV like the Eclipse?
That being said I don't think this forum is close to represent the average B&O costumer. They might know about a brand called LG and of something called "OLED", but they don't care about that stuff. They have no idea about the difference between a LG C7 and B6 ?! They want products that makes there life easier and is simple to use. They don't spend time researching the possibilities of buying a Sony screen with some sort of soundbar and some sort of black-box-surround switch for their speakers - no. And that doesn't make them stupid or anything, they just spend their time differently and doesn't feel the need to dive into tech specs and so on. Does the picture look great? -Yes! Is the sound incredible? -Yes! Will it integrate with all my other current B&O stuff and control my Sony Blu-Ray and AppleTV, so I can stick to one remote simplicity? -Yes! If the design also falls into the customers taste, then it's a deal! They are used to B&O pricing and doesn't compare it to similar products bundled together to create a "close-to-B&O"-package. If all the above boxes are ticked, then it doesn't come as a surprise that the price range matches the previous TV models.
That just became a lot longer than expected and might be influenced by a lovely glass of wine, but after reading all the negative thoughts I wanted to contribute the discussion
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
KMA: Millemissen: The 'value for the money' question has always been asked with B&O-tvs. (Edit) Perhaps more vigorously now, because the TV part of the B&O-tv is no longer B&O. I'm going overboard with this example just to make a point: What if I buy a BeoLab 7.6, mount a Sony A1 on top of it, and slap a B&O logo in the front, is it a BeoVision? No, it's a Sony TV with a B&O speaker. + = And hey – they would look pretty good together, even in a bad Photoshop! Plus the picture would be better. I may have just come up with "BeoLabVision" The scary (?) part is that the above "DIYvision" could be easily done: buy a 2nd hand BL7.6 with a table stand and 55" Sony A1. Place the A1 (that has a kick-stand) on the speaker and "Hey presto": OLED TV with B&O sound.
Millemissen: The 'value for the money' question has always been asked with B&O-tvs.
The 'value for the money' question has always been asked with B&O-tvs.
(Edit)
Perhaps more vigorously now, because the TV part of the B&O-tv is no longer B&O.
I'm going overboard with this example just to make a point:
What if I buy a BeoLab 7.6, mount a Sony A1 on top of it, and slap a B&O logo in the front, is it a BeoVision?
No, it's a Sony TV with a B&O speaker.
+
=
And hey – they would look pretty good together, even in a bad Photoshop! Plus the picture would be better.
I may have just come up with "BeoLabVision"
The scary (?) part is that the above "DIYvision" could be easily done: buy a 2nd hand BL7.6 with a table stand and 55" Sony A1. Place the A1 (that has a kick-stand) on the speaker and "Hey presto": OLED TV with B&O sound.
I couldn't believe that coming from you!
The BL7-x is a speaker from a way back generation.
Offering this as a valid B&O solution of today would mean neglecting any progress in the audio/speaker technology from the Acoustic Department in Struer.
The work, that Geoff and the other guys there have done in the last years, would be totally for nothing.
The Sound Center of the BS Eclipse is far from (or far ahead of) a somehow connected BL7-x speaker.
I actually don't think we'd be having the same value debate if the Eclipse had even a B&O skinned UI, electronic curtains, dynamic light control, visonclear, etc. I think what has sparked this debate is that there was little done to hide the fact that an LG screen and UI is being used in a B&O branded television. The value debate we'd be having is the one we have had in the past: how much of a premium is justified for a B&O television.
I think we can all justify that we and other customers should pay the B&O premium (I know I did), but for the purposes of the Eclipse, the question is how much is the right premium that should be paid? I think the premium should be less than B&O televisions of times past.
We're all questioning the value proposition because the premium really hasn't changed when the "core" of the television is blatantly not B&O any longer.
CasperI: I think you can ask yourself that question in many luxury-brand situations. Why is there a market for expensive watches, when you can buy a cheap Seiko that even keeps time better? Buy a Porsche 911 when a lot of cheaper alternatives can get you just as fast from 0-100? Why is this "not-real-B&O" becoming a problem now? Would people have preferred another Edge LED screen from Samsung, but with in-house video engine, that would still be far behind OLED in picture quality? ... And keeping the bad TV business for B&O. I get why some are wondering why they can't get both OLED and in-house video processing and I think it comes down to costs. B&Os TV devision needs to be a healthy business or they will simple be forced to shut it down. Easy as that. The Eclipse is the offer on the table, and if there is no takers, this could easily be one of the last B&O TVs. And ... Contrast screen? Apart from getting a glass front on the TV that might cause dust problems, what benefit would it do to a TV like the Eclipse? That being said I don't think this forum is close to represent the average B&O costumer. They might know about a brand called LG and of something called "OLED", but they don't care about that stuff. They have no idea about the difference between a LG C7 and B6 ?! They want products that makes there life easier and is simple to use. They don't spend time researching the possibilities of buying a Sony screen with some sort of soundbar and some sort of black-box-surround switch for their speakers - no. And that doesn't make them stupid or anything, they just spend their time differently and doesn't feel the need to dive into tech specs and so on. Does the picture look great? -Yes! Is the sound incredible? -Yes! Will it integrate with all my other current B&O stuff and control my Sony Blu-Ray and AppleTV, so I can stick to one remote simplicity? -Yes! If the design also falls into the customers taste, then it's a deal! They are used to B&O pricing and doesn't compare it to similar products bundled together to create a "close-to-B&O"-package. If all the above boxes are ticked, then it doesn't come as a surprise that the price range matches the previous TV models. That just became a lot longer than expected and might be influenced by a lovely glass of wine, but after reading all the negative thoughts I wanted to contribute the discussion
Well said
Emil Jensen: Puncher: Emil Jensen:BV7 and BV12 was very bad value tv's. The Eclipse is way better in that sense. Absolutely and utterly disagree! Puncher can you show me how you would defend the pricing of the BV7 and BV12?
It was actually engineered by B&O, not LG and was not sold under pretence.
MM,
Fully agree. I guess I may be a minority here but I actually really like the fact that we now have a proper 4K OLED TV option from B&O. I like the design and I am happy it integrates with all my other B&O products. I would have wished that Dolby Atmos had been included in the specs though. As mentioned before I have put my money where my mouth is and bought the 65" version - can't wait.
HC
The BV7-55 was 16.000 £ at launch - good or bad value....depends on your point of view, I guess.
What he said ^
Sal: I actually don't think we'd be having the same value debate if the Eclipse had even a B&O skinned UI, electronic curtains, dynamic light control, visonclear, etc. I think what has sparked this debate is that there was little done to hide the fact that an LG screen and UI is being used in a B&O branded television. The value debate we'd be having is the one we have had in the past: how much of a premium is justified for a B&O television. I think we can all justify that we and other customers should pay the B&O premium (I know I did), but for the purposes of the Eclipse, the question is how much is the right premium that should be paid? I think the premium should be less than B&O televisions of times past. We're all questioning the value proposition because the premium really hasn't changed when the "core" of the television is blatantly not B&O any longer.
I completely agree with this Sal.
B&O products are V1-32, BS2, H95, E8 and an Essence remote.11-46 now replaced with Sony A90J 65”, Sony HT-A9, Sony UBP-X800M2 and Sony SRS-NS7.
CasperI:Contrast screen? Apart from getting a glass front on the TV that might cause dust problems, what benefit would it do to a TV like the Eclipse?
which is what i had stated / asked earlier i.e. that there is a difference between what appears to be little effort, and actually making some demonstrable effort
The main thing, if i needed to upgrade, is the GUI - having some sound options greyed out, no mention of B&O anywhere really in the on screen UI, and simple things like the HDMI 2 for every A-D connected source is not good enough.
So yes, MM is right, the specs are good, but a little UI effort (and we're only talking a little effort) would go a long way, perhaps not for everyone but certainly for some.
I refuse to accept that the current situation re the UI is the best that can be done, or that we should accept.
Part of the extra experience is functionality, part is feel - less feel, less ability to justify the premium
That said, i am hopeful that the hurried feel to the UI (feels like a quick beta fix) can be addressed - hopeful, not expecting.
My friends absolutely love the curtains on my BV's - for gods sake B&O, can't be that difficult.
LG processing fine, i can live with, it may not be best in class as discussed before, but its well good enough.
But make some effort so that UI feels not 100% LG.
Sandyb:which is what i had stated / asked earlier i.e. that there is a difference between what appears to be little effort, and actually making some demonstrable effort The main thing, if i needed to upgrade, is the GUI - having some sound options greyed out, no mention of B&O anywhere really in the on screen UI, and simple things like the HDMI 2 for every A-D connected source is not good enough. So yes, MM is right, the specs are good, but a little UI effort (and we're only talking a little effort) would go a long way, perhaps not for everyone but certainly for some. I refuse to accept that the current situation re the UI is the best that can be done, or that we should accept. Part of the extra experience is functionality, part is feel - less feel, less ability to justify the premium That said, i am hopeful that the hurried feel to the UI (feels like a quick beta fix) can be addressed - hopeful, not expecting. My friends absolutely love the curtains on my BV's - for gods sake B&O, can't be that difficult. LG processing fine, i can live with, it may not be best in class as discussed before, but its well good enough. But make some effort so that UI feels not 100% LG.
TV wishlist - zero effort, maximum return!
Millemissen: Puncher: Emil Jensen:BV7 and BV12 was very bad value tv's. The Eclipse is way better in that sense. Absolutely and utterly disagree! The BV7-55 was 16.000 £ at launch - good or bad value....depends on your point of view, I guess. MM
....and is still probably the 2nd best "flat panel" TV B&O have made, behind the BV12!
Sal:I actually don't think we'd be having the same value debate if the Eclipse had even a B&O skinned UI, electronic curtains, dynamic light control, visonclear, etc. I think what has sparked this debate is that there was little done to hide the fact that an LG screen and UI is being used in a B&O branded television. The value debate we'd be having is the one we have had in the past: how much of a premium is justified for a B&O television. I think we can all justify that we and other customers should pay the B&O premium (I know I did), but for the purposes of the Eclipse, the question is how much is the right premium that should be paid? I think the premium should be less than B&O televisions of times past. We're all questioning the value proposition because the premium really hasn't changed when the "core" of the television is blatantly not B&O any longer.
KMA
B&O product history since 1991: Ridiculously long to list in a signature.
B&O skinned UI no.1 for me
The lack of Vision clear and dynamic light control has not stopped the LG TV's from getting some excellent reviews, so not sure how important they are.....maybe, but not sure.
But the UI is a major thing, whether re-skinned entirely, or a partial effort....unless they have completely abdicated all UI responsibility, perhaps a consequence of the service level agreement between B&O and LG display.
I
Sandyb: B&O skinned UI no.1 for me The lack of Vision clear and dynamic light control has not stopped the LG TV's from getting some excellent reviews, so not sure how important they are.....maybe, but not sure. But the UI is a major thing, whether re-skinned entirely, or a partial effort....unless they have completely abdicated all UI responsibility, perhaps a consequence of the service level agreement between B&O and LG display.
Or that everyone else who uses the same panel seems to get a better quality picture than the LG standard!
The bottom line is that the Eclipse is an LG television with a B&O sound bar and that's fact. People can try and justify it any way they want, for example reminding us that this is a B&O thread... BUT IS IT? No MM, B&O have turned it into an LG thread, not me or others. Let's not BS each other and face facts. It's not about being able to afford it either, as Stan suggested. I can buy this if I want to Stan as I suspect many other forum users can, but I want to know why I am paying a premium? Don't you? Honestly... to suggest that we can't discuss such IMPORTANT issues on this B&O forum makes me question how 'some people' simply like chucking their money down the drain. All that ain't me! Good night :)
Well that ain't me!!! Night.
you mean Sony and Panasonic?
as my test posts show, i agree that LG picture processing is not best in class...but again, the LG TV's have sill had excellent reviews PQ wise...not perfect but still excellent.....
BAND'OH!: Well that ain't me!!! Night.
Well that ain't me too... Comparatives that I can live with (for 65 inch).with my perspective on difference from LG
LG. - $ 3K
Sony - $ 4K (No problem) - Accoustic Surface / Better Processing and I think better design
Loewe 5 - $ 5K (No Problem) - More upscale design + Better Processing + Better UI
Loewe 7 - $ 7K (No Problem) - Same as above + (extra Sound & B&O like motorizations of panel & Floor stand)
Eclipse - $ 12K (No Problem) - Same picture + Great Sound + B&O speaker integration
Eclipse - $ 16K (Big Problem) - Remind me again what is more here....
New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0
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Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Mikipedia:Does the eclipse support Dolby atmos surround
Since Dolby Atmos will require up firing drivers, B&O Sound bar does not have those. To really get the Atmos sound, you will have to re route the sound from the TV / Source to another Preamp / Soundbar which has the ATMOS processing and then connect the up firing speakers / speakers with appropriate setup.
svinaik:Since Dolby Atmos will require up firing drivers, B&O Sound bar does not have those. To really get the Atmos sound, you will have to re route the sound from the TV / Source to another Preamp / Soundbar which has the ATMOS processing and then connect the up firing speakers / speakers with appropriate setup.
Looks good with the BL20's:
http://www.avsforum.com/bang-olufsen-beovision-eclipse-4kuhd-hdr-oled-tv-cedia-2017/
(I am dying to listen to such a combination).
Millemissen: Looks good with the BL20's:
It looks like someone has slid/plonked a random speaker down the panel and it's got stuck....before they managed to get it down to the bottom.
Glad you think it "looks good" but the speaker 2/3 down the panel just doesn't work fully for me. Not for that price.
moxxey: Millemissen: Looks good with the BL20's: It looks like someone has slid/plonked a random speaker down the panel and it's got stuck....before they managed to get it down to the bottom. Glad you think it "looks good" but the speaker 2/3 down the panel just doesn't work fully for me. Not for that price.
Every taste (lucky enough) is different!
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....as they say.