ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi all,
some of you might know me from the MasterLink reverse-engineering thread over HERE.My apologies for not continuing work there for quite a while. Dedicated spare-time was and is still an issue for me but as my love for older B&O gear is still unbeaten I want to continue with a time-friendlier version.
I'm an engineer for embedded systems designing computer boards like THIS one (just a visual example - clearly not advertising anything).
Now my idea is to build a special single-board-computer for audio streaming and general tinkering that is plug-n-play compatible with BeoLab's. I'd really like to hear your opinion on this. It would be super affordable and production numbers are nearly irrelevant as this is more a hobbyists project for me. Also I would like this to be a community project engineered for your needs and completely open source.
So if you have interest please tell me your wishes (except for MasterLink - unless you'd like to contribute that feature)!Maybe something like:
- PowerLink socket old DIN style or RJ45?- TOSLINK output for newer BeoLabs?- 2 or 2+2 channels?- PL data signal for Penta and BL5?- AUX input? Digital or analog?- Connector for the silver IR eye? Normal 38kHz IR?- 2-way IR for BL7000 / BL5000?- Integrated amplifier for BeoVox? - Maybe even WISA using one of those Summit modules?- Display?- ... ?
When writing your wishes, please remember that each one will increase the final cost.
All that would be a complete integrated and independent solution using a NXP processor running Linux at its core. On the software side I'm collaboration with people from Volumio and have also my own OS that could be easily expanded with B&O specific functions.
Requests regarding anything related to "Raspberry Pi" will be ignored from my side as thats a toy for children in my eyes. Also I'd like to mention that I'm talking about a SINGLE-BOARD-computer with all functions integrated. So no additional add-on boards or variations, please.
I'm curious about your ideas! Let's stop complaining about current generation devices and build a modern audio streamer classic B&O gear really deserves!
BR,Philip.
Barry Santini:I'm in. Whether you do a kickstarter or not.Where do I send my good faith deposit? Barry
Whether you do a kickstarter or not.Where do I send my good faith deposit?
Barry
Great!
Unless demand goes through the ceiling no Kickstarter and no good faith deposit needed currently. Personally I neither like nor trust crowdfunding much but thanks for the offer! I'm stocking most of the needed components anyway and have my own production line for such boards...
Philip.
I wonder, what I would need it for?
Would streaming be built-in or through the AUX?
User examples, please?
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Millemissen: I wonder, what I would need it for? Would streaming be built-in or through the AUX? User examples, please? MM
Good that you ask!
It would be a fully integrated streaming solution similar to the essence or the new core box but completely open-source. As a tinkering device for a fraction of the cost. Free of software-obsolescence and with some nice additional features like 2-way IR, PL data, amplifier, display, ... Thanks to the general open-source community all mayor streaming techniques and services are already covered.
You'd only need a pair of (preferably older) BeoLab's and a smartphone / tablet either for streaming or configuration.
So think of a small device that e.g. connects via PL to your BL Penta or BL4500 or ... Depending on the streaming source it can control their displays and even push data over IR the e.g. a BeoLink7000. Wouldn't that be cool? A BL7000 remote (RDS version) that displays the name of a web radio station or the current song? So just one of many scenarios...
Thanks Philip,
in that case I would not need it.
My Essence (2nd generation) already does what I need - and I can join in to it from remote NL devices.
I am sure a lot of BeoLab owners would like your project for a standalone setup.
Maybe you should also consider making a version with an analog line output (or an SPDIF-out) for connecting to a free input on a BeoSystem or alike.
I think it's a great idea!
BeoLab 5, BeoVision 7-55 MK2, BeoSound 5 Encore, BeoSound 9000, BeoLab Penta III, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoLab 2, BeoLab 7-6, BeoSound 8, BeoTime (analog clock), Beo 4 remote.
Sounds like a good idea for a new toy!- IR integration should be made one way, too, so that we can control that device with a Beo 4, 5, 6, too. - Showing the name of a current track / source on a little display would be nice. Additionally showing it on a Beolink 7000 would be super nice. :-)Although you think Raspberry Pi is a toy i think it has a very big advantage over a custom board: Spare parts! If a raspberry Pi based solution is defective, it is easy to replace the main computer (raspberry) and to find a replacement. If you design a custom board and it's defective in e.g. 5 years I bet that it would be much harder to find spare parts. - With a nice little Display it could be placed individually in e.g. an old hifi components case like people building there custom receivers into Sony DAR-1000ES casings etc.- Aux input: digital would be easier for you? Analog RCA input is more flexible for most people but than there's the need of a good DAC to enjoy the music on a Beolab speaker.
Hungedu: I think it's a great idea!
Okay, thanks.
Any ideas or wishes?
Great, thanks for your input!
TWG:- IR integration should be made one way, too, so that we can control that device with a Beo 4, 5, 6, too.
Yes, 2-way is automatically also 1-way compatible
TWG:Showing the name of a current track / source on a little display would be nice. Additionally showing it on a Beolink 7000 would be super nice.
Yes, especially driving the BL7000 would be really nice. I think effort on the software side would be limited as the 1-way protocol is already known and hopefully 2-way just expands that.
TWG:Although you think Raspberry Pi is a toy i think it has a very big advantage over a custom board: Spare parts! If a raspberry Pi based solution is defective, it is easy to replace the main computer (raspberry) and to find a replacement. If you design a custom board and it's defective in e.g. 5 years I bet that it would be much harder to find spare parts.
Unless RPI the design will be fully open-source and all major components will be available for at least 10 years as they are sourced from well known vendors and distributors. No problem for repairing if that would ever fail.
TWG:- With a nice little Display it could be placed individually in e.g. an old hifi components case like people building there custom receivers into Sony DAR-1000ES casings etc.
Any ideas for a display? I don't like the alphanumeric types much but everything else gets expensive. For me, I don't need an on-board display but if there is demand...
TWG:- Aux input: digital would be easier for you? Analog RCA input is more flexible for most people but than there's the need of a good DAC to enjoy the music on a Beolab speaker.
Digital or analog aux input doesn't make much difference. Although i.MX6 does natively have S/PDIF input we might run into latency problems if people want to connect it to their TV. So even for the digital way we would need a separate IC to avoid delay time. So either an S/PDIF receiver or an ADC for analog. A good DAC is already there for driving PL.
- the repairability is important in our planned obsolescence world. Thanks for regarding that, too.
- Display: For added browsing comfort a 4 line or full matrix LCD would be nice. A wide one prevents scrolling titles. As it is for B&O it should have a classical red backlight, like e.g. on the Access Virus C: http://www.synthfind.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/access-virus-c1.jpg
The LCD could be switched to with to font sizes: Small 4 lines for browsing comfort and on device operation and a big full size LCD font for showing (scrolling) title information while you are away so you could see the track name or internet radio station name while sitting on the couch. ;-)- Input: just use what the majority of users prefer.
TWG:Display: For added browsing comfort a 4 line or full matrix LCD would be nice. A wide one prevents scrolling titles. As it is for B&O it should have a classical red backlight
I never liked that LCD matrix stuff much. DOT matrix or OLED looks much better...
In general it seems like there isn't much demand for such a device. I thought more people would like to bring in their opinions and wishes...
My own personal needs are mainly for something that I could use as a replacement for my Playmaker that would still let me work with my BS9000, or use standalone. My PM is more reliable than most but still has hiccups now and then. I think something like you propose, if not too pricey, could be a very useful thing. Since B&O's idea of a streamer is the Moment, I'm never going to own one but still love my Beolabs. I'll have to look more at your list up front here and think more about this, I'd must have missed this first time around or forgotten about it.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
steve1977:It reads exciting. At the same time, i'm not fully clear on the use case?Both ML and NL are out of scope? if so, wouldn't AE or CC cater for the need of streaming solutions (both even with multi-room).
No, NL is not out of scope. As NL uses normal network communication it's just a question of software.
The general problem with AE and CC is that at low listening levels most of the BeoLab's will switch off if fed by LINE-IN. So with a proper power link connector we can better control them. Furthermore PL-DATA can be added to activate the displays on some BeoLabs's and even control the BL5 in stand-alone mode without IR commands.Finally two way IR could be added to use it with BL5000 or BL7000.
Jeff: I'll have to look more at your list up front here and think more about this, I'd must have missed this first time around or forgotten about it.
Okay, great. Any input highly appreciated!
Has anyone looked at Yamaha Music Cast? - this seems to offer a great app and multi room, plus you can get smaller boxes that simply plug into an old stereo and allow them to join a multi room streaming system. I've ordered one of the small CD/Internet Radio/USB/Receivers for my kitchen to use with S45-2's to see how it compares with the old ML system.
Ah, the "requirements definition phase" of a project! Leading to system functional design...I was a systems engineer for 35 years.
Taking the below:
- PowerLink socket old DIN style or RJ45? - I'd say RJ45, probably cheaper, smaller to make a better/easier form factor, and since B&O has embraced these R45 to PL converters are easy to find.
- TOSLINK output for newer BeoLabs? - If you want it to appeal to those of us who aren't Beoluddites, yes.
- 2 or 2+2 channels? - 2 channels is fine for me.
- PL data signal for Penta and BL5? - I don't care, some would, but the number of such speakers is declining, so I'd say no unless it's very easy and cheap.
- AUX input? Digital or analog? - Definitely yes, for me analog is fine (two would even be nice), I'd guess digital would be of interest to many, so I'd say both.
- Connector for the silver IR eye? Normal 38kHz IR? - Might be useful, but I don't know. I only have one eye up but if I put the thing in a cabinet some kind of eye would be nice, then again people can buy IR blasters, having it respond to both B&O remotes and "normal" IR freq would be a plus.
- 2-way IR for BL7000 / BL5000? - Small market, wouldn't help me.
- Integrated amplifier for BeoVox? - Interesting idea, but personally I'd say no, but analog preamp outs via the RJ45/PL could easily be connected to an outboard amp, a 12 volt trigger out would help with that to turn on the outboard amps.
- Maybe even WISA using one of those Summit modules? - WISA would help sell it to frustrated Moment buyers.
- Display? No cogent thoughts on that, however, if it had an app to run it, on iOS and Android, that showed what it was playing that would be the bomb. I think the future is app based and since it's a microprocessor...
Hope this helps. This is a very promising project, maybe we can get the ghost of David Lewis to contribute...
Sounds interesting. I use the digital in and out on a Yamaha WXC-50 pre-amplifier connected to a Beolab Transmitter to guide sound from a Sony TV to my Beolab 18's. You could look at the Yamaha for inspiration, as it is a very nice little box. If you add FM / DAB+ / Internet radio and WISA + the ability to control with a B&O remote + powerlink sockets you have a winner :-)
Great, thanks to all for the input!
I think FM and DAB+ are out for now. FM will be shout down sooner or later and DAB+ is too expensive and too much effort for implementing. There is basically only one DAB+ IC available at distributors and getting the firmware for it is really a pain.
Maybe let's keep it as simple and as inexpensive as possible for the moment. So what about:
So you could connect your old BeoLabs to a modern non-B&O TV using TOSLINK.Stream digital content like Spotify Connect, AirPlay, Bluetooth, DLNA, webradio.Listen to the analog-in source.
I'd really like to add B&O IR support. Problem is that there is no 455kHz demodulator available anymore. That means it needs to be built using discrete components. Maybe the simplest method would be building a simple filter and decoding the RAW data in a small MCU. Development is quite time consuming and I'm not sure if it's worth investing that effort.
For other (but similar) devices I'm in the progress of building an open iOS/android app. That could be easily expanded by BeoLab specific settings.
Regarding NL and B&O app support, I'm basically out. Only good old pre-NL devices here. So I could neither develop nor test that stuff. Nevertheless if B&O is releasing sources or documentation about those two protocols I'm happy to integrate them.
For remote control, could you not incorporate a lintronic converter? - I'm a big fan of this box and have had mine for years - it's been used to control loads of non b&o products over the years and about to get yet another lease of life controlling the yamaha in the kitchen - have to say very impressed with it as it does everything I wanted it to do very well and expanding to multi room will be easy and the app is also well thought out and easy to use.
BeoMotion:Regarding NL and B&O app support, I'm basically out. Only good old pre-NL devices here. So I could neither develop nor test that stuff. Nevertheless if B&O is releasing sources or documentation about those two protocols I'm happy to integrate them.
Not having NL devices is exactly the point why it would be great to have an NL receiver integrated in this setup. To some degree, this is what the ML/NL converter can do, but it is huge and not well supported. So if there is a way to re-engineer the protocol and have our good old Beolabs, Beocenters and Beolits controlled via the Beomusic / X app, this would be a nice B&O experience. But fully understand if this was wishful thinking...
I like the idea have self been tinkering with some of the same as and SW dev I know about the time issue
The problem with b&o today for me is the pricing and number of boxes.
I think wisa will be a problem but not sure?
PL support is a most it could be one RJ45 and one old they are both containg left and right channel
Toslink input maybe for tv connection and the volume regulation maybe learning.
It could also contain IR translator (puc) from bl4 to a non B&O tv
No amp, it will just raise price complexity and problems ;-)
Just include an interface (I/O pins and power) for a B&O IR eye. Plenty of those around and you can even salvage the circuitry from certain old Beovisions (no shortage of those either). This is what even Lintronic does nowadays afaik.
--mika
Hi
I made it simple.
Music server with spotify and deezer + internet radio + local radio stations + 5TB HDD with ripping disc drive with vortexbox and it works perfect!
command via logitech squeezer on android or Apple.
connected to BS 9000 or BS 4 :)
steve1977:So if there is a way to re-engineer the protocol and have our good old Beolabs, Beocenters and Beolits controlled via the Beomusic / X app
Most likely BeoMusic / X app are still using the BeoRemote protocol and NL the XMPP implementation. Not sure wether it's still clear-text as new streaming services might depend on encryption.
rfrichg:The problem with b&o today for me is the pricing and number of boxes.I think wisa will be a problem but not sure?
tournedos:Just include an interface (I/O pins and power) for a B&O IR eye.
This is an interesting thread.... but, unless I am missing an obvious point, what is the advantage over using a cheapish android tablet (with spotify etc set up) or even an amazon echo dot?
You would still have control via a phone app, and if it is just into an AUX input, that is the job done for well under £100UK
folkdeejay:This is an interesting thread.... but, unless I am missing an obvious point, what is the advantage over using a cheapish android tablet (with spotify etc set up) or even an amazon echo dot? You would still have control via a phone app, and if it is just into an AUX input, that is the job done for well under £100UK
The problem with normal LINE input on BeoLab's is that they are switching off automatically on low listening levels. Additionally generic streamers aren't controllable by B&O remotes nor do they feed the PowerLink DATA pin with playback information. If the NL or BeoRemote protocol will become available of course it won't be integrated into common streamers. Last but not least most of them are missing a digital TOSLINK input + analog LINE input and only offering limited audio quality.
There's one more comment, whatever DAC is implemented it needs to be better than the DAC in, say, the AIrport Express. Now, don't get me wrong, the required level of DAC to be inaudible from even pricey ones isn't that high, and IMO mainly is a result of the analog sections and power supply not the DA process itself, but some attention to this would be nice!
BeoMotion: tournedos:Just include an interface (I/O pins and power) for a B&O IR eye.Yes, I think this is the way to go. Should the buttons and the both LED's be supported? The old eyes are using I2C for this but the newer ones something different. Maybe UART as the data pins are labeled with TX/RX now...
AFAIK the Olde rectangular IR eyes just provide the demodulated IR bit stream (without the 455 kHz carrier). Hockey pucks should do the same and I believe the buttons just send the same data as if the same function had been transmitted by an IR remote.
Jeff: There's one more comment, whatever DAC is implemented it needs to be better than the DAC in, say, the AIrport Express. Now, don't get me wrong, the required level of DAC to be inaudible from even pricey ones isn't that high, and IMO mainly is a result of the analog sections and power supply not the DA process itself, but some attention to this would be nice!
+1 on that, and especially to the latter part of the post.
To the OP, I have for a long time thought of building something similar using RPi and HifiBerry, so here goes my which list.
A streamer device which;
accepts Beo IR command for volume and skip track
with a small display ~5” which shows album art and track name for Spotify. No touch control needed, but hard buttons for skip track could be useful, the rest is controlled by the phone I guess.
I currently use a “Chrome Cast audio” connected to a BS2300 which are driving my BL4000, so the device would need to sound as good as that combination when connected directly to the BL4000.
For me one alternative would even be to leav the Beomaster in the loop and have DataLink controlling the device ilo IR, but then you would loose those who want to have it connected straight to BL’s.
Looking forward to follow this project
BR Goran
Beo 4 control for volume and track skipping is a must on my personal wish list.
Maybe it could be possible to choose which source button on the Beo 4 activates the device. This would give more freedom to the users. E.g. "A.Mem" for music or "PC" or whatever someone wishes to press for activating the device. As it only needs to display text information a simple LCD with maybe the B&O style red backlight would fit.
Jeff:There's one more comment, whatever DAC is implemented it needs to be better than the DAC in, say, the AIrport Express. Now, don't get me wrong, the required level of DAC to be inaudible from even pricey ones isn't that high, and IMO mainly is a result of the analog sections and powersupply not the DA process itself, but some attention to this would be nice!
Yes, of course it will be of a higher quality than standard streamers. I'll make sure that there is a well-known and excellent performing DAC that is fed by some ultra low noise LDO's.
tournedos:AFAIK the Olde rectangular IR eyes just provide the demodulated IR bit stream (without the 455 kHz carrier). Hockey pucks should do the same and I believe the buttons just send the same data as if the same function had been transmitted by an IR remote.
Yes. Both, the rectangular one (MCL times) and the hockey puck (ML times) have a pin that provides the demodulated IR stream. I don't know how the MCL IR receiver works but the ML hockey puck doesn't transmit the button presses via the IR data line. Instead there is an internal I2C port expander where the two LED's and the buttons are connected to. SDA and SCL are available from the screw terminal on the backside. As far as I know no interrupt line is part of the IR eye wiring so the host (BL Active, etc.) might just be polling that data regularly. Now in the NL era there is a third generation IR receiver that looks exactly the same as the second generation. Those data pin aren't labeled SDA and SCL any longer but TX and RX instead. Also now the buttons and LED's are incompatible with the ML devices which makes me think that they have switched over to UART.
BeoLignage: To the OP, I have for a long time thought of building something similar using RPi and HifiBerry, so here goes my which list.A streamer device which;accepts Beo IR command for volume and skip trackwith a small display ~5” which shows album art and track name for Spotify. No touch control needed, but hard buttons for skip track could be useful, the rest is controlled by the phone I guess.I currently use a “Chrome Cast audio” connected to a BS2300 which are driving my BL4000, so the device would need to sound as good as that combination when connected directly to the BL4000.For me one alternative would even be to leav the Beomaster in the loop and have DataLink controlling the device ilo IR, but then you would loose those who want to have it connected straight to BL’s. Looking forward to follow this project
To the OP, I have for a long time thought of building something similar using RPi and HifiBerry, so here goes my which list.A streamer device which;accepts Beo IR command for volume and skip trackwith a small display ~5” which shows album art and track name for Spotify. No touch control needed, but hard buttons for skip track could be useful, the rest is controlled by the phone I guess.I currently use a “Chrome Cast audio” connected to a BS2300 which are driving my BL4000, so the device would need to sound as good as that combination when connected directly to the BL4000.For me one alternative would even be to leav the Beomaster in the loop and have DataLink controlling the device ilo IR, but then you would loose those who want to have it connected straight to BL’s.
TWG:Beo 4 control for volume and track skipping is a must on my personal wish list.Maybe it could be possible to choose which source button on the Beo 4 activates the device. This would give more freedom to the users. E.g. "A.Mem" for music or "PC" or whatever someone wishes to press for activating the device. As it only needs to display text information a simple LCD with maybe the B&O style red backlight would fit.
So let's have some small screw terminals for connection of the IR eye or any other 455 kHz receiver.IR mapping is freely configurable.Later I might publish a link to a google doc's survey regarding feature requests like display, etc.
To all that are interested in this solution:You might want to fill out this Google survey to let us know what your wishes are. https://goo.gl/forms/vS5lMkybvQ5muXki2Much easier and faster than talking about that basic stuff here on the forum.
Done.
.
Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
TWG:Done.
seethroughyou:Done