Is NAS and web music streaming too complicated, who has gone back to CDs and vinyl?

The forums from all manufacturers is loaded with people complaining about how they spend more time maintaining their networks, firewalls, dynamic vs static, VPNs, refresh firmware, work around glitches, power down, rebuild....I think when it works well, it's great but a big part of me especially being a classical listener with all the metadata problems wants to go back to the simplicity of he 1980-2000s. Open, load, press play....

Who feels the same?

Who went back to CDs as vinyl after using streamers?

Am a Luddite?

Unreasonable fears?

Streaming better for some music and not so good for others?

seethroughyou:

The forums from all manufacturers is loaded with people complaining about how they spend more time maintaining their networks, firewalls, dynamic vs static, VPNs, refresh firmware, work around glitches, power down, rebuild....I think when it works well, it's great but a big part of me especially being a classical listener with all the metadata problems wants to go back to the simplicity of he 1980-2000s. Open, load, press play....

 

 

Who feels the same?

 

Who went back to CDs as vinyl after using streamers?

 

Am a Luddite?

 

Unreasonable fears?

 

Streaming better for some music and not so good for others?

 

 

 

Because it is currently mainly geeky, techie types who do this. The market needs an audio hub that is designed for the old, the witless and those that don't have the time to waste or can't be 4rsed! It should have simple controls and  hide/automate all the unnecessary stuff which is not directly related to actually playing music.

 

Actually I never 'went back' to CD's (don't talk to me about Vinyl).

I never stopped buying and playing CD's, when not available on Spotify ----- and yes, if you are a sophisticated listener ;-) like me, there really is a lot that you don't find there.

I don't rip these CD's anymore, just pop them in - you can find all sorts of information on the internet, if the cover notes is not enough.

Occasionally I listen to some of my previous ripped/NAS-based material.

I spend a lot of time back then - way too much time - tagging files.....online streaming is so much easier/better. They do all the sour work for me and Spotify gives me gapless playback in addition.

I have used the same DLNA server for years, not a problem.

If I want to listen to albums, that require gapless playback, I use the Logitech Media Server (also on the NAS) and - as playback device - my good old Squeezebox Touch.

But mostly the built-in rendererers in the BV or in the Essence serve me well.

No 'going back' here.

Streaming - from a music service - is here to stay....in perfect harmony with my CD's and my music/concert BluRay discs

Access to and playback of music has never been better ;-)

MM

 

Puncher:

The market needs an audio hub that is designed for the old, the witless and those that don't have the time to waste or can't be 4rsed! It should have simple controls and hide/automate all the unnecessary stuff which is not directly related to actually playing music.

Ban boring signatures!

This describes me completely. Such a player is the Holy Grail of audio.

Agreed, and hence the conversation a few weeks ago about music systems I.e a Moment 2.0 device that was more powerful / flexible / functional

Or is DLNA really too janky to be stable (not an expert, don't shoot me)

I use vinyl for 30-40 classic albums, usually a rainy day when I'm stuck at home. Older albums recorded in the 70's to early 90's (roughly) sound fabulous. Not a core scenario, but a nice one to have.

seethroughyou:

Puncher:

The market needs an audio hub that is designed for the old, the witless and those that don't have the time to waste or can't be 4rsed! It should have simple controls and hide/automate all the unnecessary stuff which is not directly related to actually playing music.

This describes me completely. Such a player is the Holy Grail of audio.

That "audio hub/Holy Grail" was once called BM5/BS5 in B&O jargon...

seethroughyou:

Puncher:

 

The market needs an audio hub that is designed for the old, the witless and those that don't have the time to waste or can't be 4rsed! It should have simple controls and hide/automate all the unnecessary stuff which is not directly related to actually playing music.

 

 

Ban boring signatures!

 

 

 

This describes me completely. Such a player is the Holy Grail of audio.

I think you're right, such a thing is definitely needed. Shoot, I'd use one and I manage the network/streaming/PC/tablet based solution fine, but I'd prefer something simpler.

I have ripped all my CDs (and the new ones I buy) into iTunes (not that I like iTunes, Apple has over the years turned it into a basket case kludge instead of an elegant simple music management setup), and I use Spotify. I still have all my CDs and a fair number of old LPs. I seldom play either, some days I'll get into an LP nostalgia craze and give my Beogram a good workout, just the other day I played a stack of CDs to make sure my BS9000 was still working, but in general what I love about streaming is one, I can actually find things rather than searching through my CDs, as they inevitably no matter how well I organized them, drift as I wasn't good at maintaining that organization, and two, I can sit relaxing on the couch and pick and choose from any of my music without moving from my comfy zone! After a long day you just want to have music, not hop up constantly.

I feel the same way @seethroughyou. I had started with a full stereo back in the 70s with radio, cassettes, and records, and added CDs in the 80s. Then I moved my CD collection to the first of my computers in the 90s. Due to obsolescence and hardware failure, I've had to reinstall my CDs several times over the years - the first of many frustrations with non-physical media. Having my entire collection at my fingertips was a strong positive, so I soldiered on. 

Then I moved to an Apple infrastructure with a Mac Mini running iTunes on constant shuffle and AirPlay to a few Airport Express units through the house and my Playmaker. Now my mini is long in the tooth and is due for replacement as a preventive measure as much as anything - it's been running 24x7 for a few years now after all. I think I moved all my music to a NAS that acts as my personal cloud. I say "I think" because I have not checked that all new songs loaded into iTunes are being stored on the NAS - they may be stored on my mini hard drive for all I know. I've been though the iTunes settings, but really? Could they be any more obscure?

I've had network stability problems in the past, which I remedied by making a wired connection between my cable router and an AirPort Extreme. This seems to have solidified my network woes for the past couple of years. It just seems like I've had to go through a lot to get to this rather simplified configuration. 

So now I should be able to switch songs or playlists using the remote app on my iDevices - except Apple killed that feature in one of their updates, so now the best I can do is use the add feature to select the next few songs I'd like to hear. Everything was just fine until they messed it up and there does not seem to be any plans to fix it. I would like to think I'm in this for the long run, but that does not seem possible with the new software/cloud paradigm, so hardware seems to be the only thing I can rely upon for my music.

I've been through a half dozen different computers and at least a dozen different online/cloud music services. I can put my record I bought in 1975 on my Beogram and just relax. The same goes for my CD collection I started in the early 80s. So, for background music while cooking in the kitchen or taking a shower in the bathroom, it's "Tape 2" for the iTunes stream. For critical listening, I use my Beogram or Beogram CD players in the living room, for the simplicity, quality, and reliability. So maybe I'm not a full Luddite, but I certainly have my reservations that a media-less solution if viable as a long-term option. 

I started with Windows media player, Rhapsody, and a few others I'm sure before I settled on iTunes. But just like Napster, Rhapsody, Tidal and Pandora on the ropes, and SoundCloud, PonoMusic failed, many of the other services are on the ropes as well. Which one can you point to and say will still be around in two years, five years, ten years? I won't place any of my money on it. So why build an entire product line on such a fleeting environment?  

I recently found the complaints I had about records - pops, ticks, surface noise - were more due to the quality of records I was buying (RCA or Columbia House - 11 albums for a penny!) than the media itself. My latest purchases of higher production quality albums had put many of those concerns to rest for me. So put me squarely in the corner for physical media.

I wonder how many of us Deezer users will upgrade to HiFi when it becomes available on BS products...

Dom, you make a good point about the quality of albums. Back in the day sometimes you got lucky and got an LP from one of the major labels that was pressed early in a pressing masters life, sometimes you got one from the 10,000+ pressings and it was awful. I've found in browsing used record stores you sometimes find albums labeled "promotional pressing" which is a good find, as these were early pressings distributed to radio stations for promos, often not even played, which were better than average pressings.

If you love your LPs, I can recommend two things. First, buy good vinyl/plastic sleeves to replace the paper sleeves that came with most albums, they protect the LP far better. Secondly, get a record cleaning machine or system. I use a Record Doctor I got from Audio Advisor, not as sophisticated as some machines but inexpensive and effective. Clean even new albums, and then put them in nice vinyl sleeves and you'll avoid much of the problems with LPs. Yes, I once was a vinylphile, but I got better.

One of the best is Tidal with Roon but I am loathed to spend hundreds of pounds on lifetime subscriptions, far cheaper than annual in the long run, only to find they've packed up in a 3 years from now. Over 20-30 years of listening it also probably cheaper to buy my own CDs than pay for subscriptions. I wouldn't ever go with a regular streaming company as they're still less than CD quality.

Given the state of flux over streaming, CDs and physical media seems so much more bullet proof as long as I kept a video inventory or receipts in case of the house burning down.

The streaming solution has another problem in that of hardware dependent, if the hardware dies or develops software glitches you're stuffed, and the only full proof of a laptop or computer that isn't hardware dependent and all you need to do is install latest version of Deezer, iTunes, Roon etc...

@DMarci

Hi Dom

I love Beoworld because of how stories resonate and interests collide/merge ...

My path is similar to yours and I have two LARGE boxes of CDs - ours, and our sons' - that are the physical archive for the 18,000 tracks I ripped.

Once as medium quality to my 2008 MacBook and then high quality to my MacMini ( which has been operating now for 7y X 52w X 7d X 24h non-stop (apart from power cuts (that terrify me) and OS upgrades - all I have had to do to it is a. Memory upgrade so all the media apps can run: BMlink (bale LinkPlayer), iTunes, PLEX, Safari with Radio Paradise).

I backup all our Macs to three (3!) Time Capsules, iTunes iCloud, and iCloud for the non-media stuff. I used to automatically download my Apple Music "likes" but that eventually the iTunes library (@ 2TB) blew the Time Capsules so now I am back to backing up only my purchases.

( for the past ~2 years the iTunes library is on a USB attached hard drive -- another source of heart failure with power cuts )

I have a modest (say 50+) collection of DVDs and BluRays -- only the music ones have ripped to PLEX.

Lots of home videos yet to be copied and archived.

Probably 50+ LPs we no longer play (all three Beograms need work).

And probably 100 audio cassettes -- sadly too many have tangled themselves on the BeoCords so I have stopped using them.

So yes I have spent to much time protect my physical (CD) collection and my digital purchases.

And as stated elsewhere this weekend on the form I am spending too many $s on streaming services.

I should settle on on provider: pick Apple or Deezer or Spotify.

And let go of the past

I play CD's on a BC2 or alternatively copy them onto a Brennan. Even that is a bit of a faff especially if the disk is not recognised or comes up as the wrong disk because of the way the music title archive runs looking for the lengths/ playing times of music on an album.

I don't subscribe to streaming services. There are now so many web radio stations it is quite easy to select a few reflecting your tastes, and without adverts.  Radio Paradise, (the very first web station???) also puts out brilliant coordinated slide shows, ideal for viewing and listening via a BV11.

My best listening system for web radio has turned out to be the Olive One directly connected to S45 speakers. The Olive also has all of my wife's iTunes collection on it (which is otherwise played via an older iPad sitting on a BS8).

Graham

All of my ipod music is uploaded to google play music ( up to 50000 tracks of 320kbps free). From there I can stream it anywhere, controlled by voice using google home, to chromecast audio connected to BS5000 and can be browsed/navigated using app.

Im quite impressed at how useful/useable it is for free - no subscription required.

Puncher:

Im quite impressed at how useful/useable it is for free - no subscription required.

There is a saying: "If it's free, you are the product..."

CB:

Puncher:

Im quite impressed at how useful/useable it is for free - no subscription required.

 

There is a saying: "If it's free, you are the product..."

I suspect that's only said by people trying to sell you something!

Sandyb:

Or is DLNA really too janky to be stable (not an expert, don't shoot me)

DLNA is definitely 'too janky'!

Apart from this and the wasted time you might use on it - and the fonvenience of streaming from a music service - for me there is another aspect.

I am not the guy who clings to his old vinyls from the seventies (although I still have some left) or the CD's, that I bought some 15-20 years ago.

Of cource I have my favourites, that I visit/revisit once in a while (from physical media or as file on the NAS).

But there is so much new music coming out - from the good old guys and from new artists.

And there is still a lot of 'old stuff', that I for this or that reason did not get into previously.

Buying all this stuff as physical media (to store at home....well, what will my 'heirs' do with all that stuff, when I am gone?) would cost me a fortune.

My musical appetite would literaly ruin me, I guess.

This is one of the main reasons for me to prioritize online streaming!

 

Back to 'janky DLNA' - I would not advice anyone to start that adventure.

Go streaming from the service that fits you most, it would be.

 

MM

I guess I was trying to say, if you already have your music collection digitised then upload it to google and stream, rather than host locally to avoid the complexity whilst maximising your music's availability.

I can truly say that Bang & Olufsen has changed the way that I listen to music. Before the BeoSound 5, I rarely listened to the digital rips of my CDs. I had shelves and shelves of CDs carefully alphabetized. After buying the BeoSound 5, I found that I never touched CDs anymore. It was a realization that occurred to me quiet awhile after getting the BeoSound 5. Then, I boxed up the CD collection and moved it to storage.

Now I'm wondering if the Moment is going to change the way I listen to music again. Prior to getting the Moment, I would turn to my ripped music collection rather than Deezer or Spotify. However, the Moment truly integrates Deezer into my music collection. When you tag an artist, song, or album as "liked," the artist and that content appears within your music collection. It's all organized together. When a new album is released, rather than buying that album it just makes sense for me to "like" it in Deezer on the Moment and it becomes a part of my music collection. I will definitely be upgrading to the high resolution Deezer when it becomes available.

I'm still a bit bitter about what happened with the BeoSound 5 and Spotify. The Spotify interface on the BeoSound 5 was nice. B&O has chosen not to replace Spotify with Deezer on the BeoSound 5. It's true that the BeoSound 5 has been discontinued. Still, this shows how the very expensive B&O products can suddenly become useless if a streaming service is no longer supported. This could just as easily happen with the Moment. Imagine if a few years after the Moment becomes discontinued that Deezer goes out of business and another streaming service becomes all the rage. We could be left with a beautiful but useless block of aluminum.

Agreed, I use Tidal and have Deezer, which covers much of my listening plus my ripped collection, so not anti streaming by any means

Works for the most part on the Moment, much as I wish it was a bit more robust

The 30 or 40 vinyls are used once or twice a month, and they sound fabulous, but it's not the core of what I do - more for a deeper experience and mainly with older jazz

And I don't mind keeping and buying the odd CD, they do sound a bit better than 320 streams. But yes for a lot of background listening, those streams are absolutely fine

As for long endless retagging exercises, I can't be bothered- the Moment does pick the wrong one sometimes but I've got more important things to do

CB:

That "audio hub/Holy Grail" was once called BM5/BS5 in B&O jargon...

Agree with that. Yet it got many detractors.

Puncher:

I suspect that's only said by people trying to sell you something!

Ban boring signatures!

beojeff:

Still, this shows how the very expensive B&O products can suddenly become useless if a streaming service is no longer supported. This could just as easily happen with the Moment. Imagine if a few years after the Moment becomes discontinued that Deezer goes out of business and another streaming service becomes all the rage. We could be left with a beautiful but useless block of aluminum.

... and that's my point. If you are going to invest heavily in expensive new equipment, why have it locked to some potentially temporary streaming service where you are stuck when the support ends?

I tried Google Music, but I couldn't get it to just run continually without some form of intervention. iTunes still wins that battle for me.

One of my biggest complaints is that with iTunes, I'm stuck with my collection and don't get exposed to new music. Maybe internet radio is my next option? It would be nice if I could use both my music and some similar new music and artists mixed in from time to time on a constant stream.

DMacri:

beojeff:

 

Still, this shows how the very expensive B&O products can suddenly become useless if a streaming service is no longer supported. This could just as easily happen with the Moment. Imagine if a few years after the Moment becomes discontinued that Deezer goes out of business and another streaming service becomes all the rage. We could be left with a beautiful but useless block of aluminum.

 

 

... and that's my point. If you are going to invest heavily in expensive new equipment, why have it locked to some potentially temporary streaming service where you are stuck when the support ends?

 

 

I tried Google Music, but I couldn't get it to just run continually without some form of intervention. iTunes still wins that battle for me.

 

 

One of my biggest complaints is that with iTunes, I'm stuck with my collection and don't get exposed to new music. Maybe internet radio is my next option? It would be nice if I could use both my music and some similar new music and artists mixed in from time to time on a constant stream.

One thing I've noticed lately with Spotify is that if I start playing a particular album, after the end it continues with a selection of songs it self curates as being similar, kind of their MOTS/Genius or such. They seem to do a pretty good job and their "radio stations" are pretty good. I have one jazz one that, after doing the thumbs up and down on various songs, has become quite well tailored for my tastes. So while there are definitely some good things to be had with streaming services, I also agree buying into any product wed to a particular service has definite risks. In general I like the Spotify interface with only minor complaints.

To be honest, I could significantly cull my iTunes collection as I have a lot of music I seldom listen to that could be sourced from Spotify, same for the collection of CDs my iTunes came from. But I tend to hang onto the stuff, plus, as good as Spotify is, it is very thin in older albums from some artists I like, so iTunes or CDs are needed for them. Last time I checked, for example, Spotify didn't have the debut Ricki Lee Jones album "Ricki Lee Jones," only a few cuts off it.But the old stuff they often have of obscure things surprises me too. The farther back in time you go it tends to get uneven.

 

 

beojeff:

B&O has chosen not to replace Spotify with Deezer on the BeoSound 5. It's true that the BeoSound 5 has been discontinued. Still, this shows how the very expensive B&O products can suddenly become useless if a streaming service is no longer supported. This could just as easily happen with the Moment. Imagine if a few years after the Moment becomes discontinued that Deezer goes out of business and another streaming service becomes all the rage. We could be left with a beautiful but useless block of aluminum.

 

I am not a expert in this, but I see in the last months more and more buyers complaining about the lack in software upgrades (SamSung, LG) because they discontinued certain products and because of that they not making upgrades anymore and causing trouble with (by example) streaming services (like Spotify, Deezer, etc.) I have the idea that you can force them to deliver upgrades for delivered equipment, most of the time you pay a lot for equipment and it cannot be that a company simple can say.... goodbye we not supporting this anymore. Maybe there is something in:  Sale of Goods Act ?? that is usable. 

It would be crazy when you buy now a BS Moment and in 2 years B&O stop producing the Moment Deezer or Spotify change something and and the product where you pay a lot of money for is almost useless...... cannot be true!

 

jvdl:

I am not a expert in this, but I see in the last months more and more buyers complaining about the lack in software upgrades (SamSung, LG) because they discontinued certain products and because of that they not making upgrades anymore and causing trouble with (by example) streaming services (like Spotify, Deezer, etc.) I have the idea that you can force them to deliver upgrades for delivered equipment, most of the time you pay a lot for equipment and it cannot be that a company simple can say.... goodbye we not supporting this anymore. Maybe there is something in: Sale of Goods Act ?? that is usable.

It would be crazy when you buy now a BS Moment and in 2 years B&O stop producing the Moment Deezer or Spotify change something and and the product where you pay a lot of money for is almost useless...... cannot be true!

At least for streaming.

I'd look to Chromecast/Apple TV/Amazon Fire TV for streaming. None of the content providers wants to be left out of the big boys corrals.

B

I use Apple TV as my main source alongside a DVD1 for watching TV, I also use my internet radio instead of terrestrial as the choice if far greater and I can hear what I want without adverts or disc jockeys talking about themselves or trying to trip someone up!.

For music though I do stream from an iPad with a digital connection (via teh camera kit) to a Dac then linn amp and then M100's - Sound quality is excellent and sounds better than streaming it via airplay for some reason.  

I recently got into having multiroom via wireless using Yamaha's Musiccast boxes - BUT it is so cumbersome to have to use your phone to choose which room to join etc. etc. And the sound quality is not as good as I had hoped. The old days of masterlink where you just pressed a button in a room you wanted to hear music were much easier inmho - hate having to use my phone to change the volume and switch sources. Beo4 is much easier.

Some music I stream but the rest of the time it is vinyl and reel to reel so a combination of both - gave all my CD;s away years ago and bypassed cassettes.

I guess I'm the backwards bumpkin in this thread. My wife and I don't subscribe to any streaming services. Zip, Zilch, Zero. We've ripped our CDs and placed them in an iTunes library. Yes, iTunes stinks and is bloated, but for our purposes, it does a fine job maintaining our library in a way that is accessible in our Apple ecosystem. That being said, our musical discovery process is pretty fluid, we listen to radio stations and trawl music sites in our free time, if we hear something we like, we make a note of it, and potentially buy the track or album on iTunes. Maybe we're old fashioned about such things, but we don't like "renting" things we'd prefer to own. That being said, we do think that there should be a standard for DLNA across the industry that can make it less "janky" and allow it to work well for the most part, across devices, etc.

All of the above being said, my wife and I likely actively listen to maybe less than 30% of the music we actually have in our library.

We're digital hoarders.

I guess that's why I've been so impatient for a DLNA search feature for the B&O X App. I have to say, though, that the current version of the X App is very smooth and fast when it comes to scrolling - to me, much better than BeoMusic - so that's something positive. I would still love to quickly get to a piece of music I want to listen to rather than scrolling through long lists of tracks or artists.

Puncher:

I guess I was trying to say, if you already have your music collection digitised then upload it to google and stream, rather than host locally to avoid the complexity whilst maximising your music's availability.

Ban boring signatures!

I don't find PLEX "janky" - and it's fairly stable.

The main reason I have kept it is for video usage by family members rather than audio by me.

I am a happy streamer ... and with the demise of LinkPlayer I should shut down the BeoPort.

DMacri:

One of my biggest complaints is that with iTunes, I'm stuck with my collection and don't get exposed to new music.

That's why I mainly use Apple Music.

It integrates my iTunes library with their recommendation system ... for example this is a weekly discovery playlist freshly generated for me each Friday; followed by a recommended "chill" playlist; followed by a recommendation from my own library !

Barry Santini:

I'd look to Chromecast/Apple TV/Amazon Fire TV for streaming. None of the content providers wants to be left out of the big boys corrals

Good point Barry.

Although the Essence/Core-Solo is a nice relatively (for B&O) economical gateway between the corrals and your Beolabs and the NL/ML worlds.

Jeff:

To be honest, I could significantly cull my iTunes collection as I have a lot of music I seldom listen to that could be sourced from Spotify, same for the collection of CDs my iTunes came from. But I tend to hang onto the stuff, plus, as good as Spotify is, it is very thin in older albums from some artists I like, so iTunes or CDs are needed for them. Last time I checked, for example, Spotify didn't have the debut Ricki Lee Jones album "Ricki Lee Jones," only a few cuts off it.But the old stuff they often have of obscure things surprises me too. The farther back in time you go it tends to get uneven.

Also, whenever there is a choice, Spotify seems to prefer the latest release of any given album. So you will end up with the worst example of loudness wars. My pet example is "Rumours" the album by Fleetwood Mac - it's just horrible in Spotify (perhaps it is tolerable in the paid service, but I use Spotify seldom enough to happily remain a freeloader). If you have access to a proper recording, check out "Dreams" to instantly know what I mean.

I'm all for physical media - still, almost all of my CDs still remain in boxes since I moved here in 2011. I just don't listen that much to "my music" anymore. Apart from some late night drunken trips down the memory lane, I'll rather have someone else curate me a ready made selection, so I mostly listen to radio these days. Also my tastes have drifted largely from pop to classical, and the latter really isn't what the streaming services do best.

Nice thread! Thankfully I am not alone. I also do buy CD's still and every now and than vinyl records. I am an album listener and never got into streaming music. The (new) Beosound 1 that I have is (for me) illustrative on why I don't like streaming / digital music. And yes, mostly because I am probably not good enough set-up for it.

Interesting comment Mika about the loudness wars and Spotify's use of whatever is the latest "remaster." I'll have to try Dreams, I have it both on my iTunes from a ripped CD in Apple Lossless and via Spotify. I have noticed the remastered tag on many of the albums they have where I didn't realize they had ever been remastered.The original Dreams on the album always struck me as one of the better examples of good studio work in that era.

When I played my BS9000 with CDs the other day, I was reminded of the old B&O "magic" watching the CD illuminated puck move and the discs spin. It is a satisfying visual experience even if you only catch it out of the corner of your eye now and then.