ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
hi all,
A non-performing CD6500 thanks to a dishonest seller !!
loading a disc is fine, press play and the disc rotates briefly and stops after a few seconds after trying
to read the track inventory.
put the player in the service position, trying to adjust the focus offset: 2 is blinking on the display but I am unable to get it steady via trimmer 30R3146 - has no impact whatsoever ?
I replaced 30R 2138,2140, 2103, 2104, 2107.
I also checked all flat- connectors on and from PCB30 - all fine as well as the voltages on Plug33 and 36.
Can I improve the situation if the main caps on PCB5 would be replaced or can I assume the laser is dead ?
will be very greatful for some pointers/help 🤔🤔
ALF
DON'T adjust anything !!!The adjustments are factory set and nothing of that has changed or needs changing.C2103 MUST be a blue Philips axial (or one of very few other closely related types).It will perform just as you describe if you fit any and all other brand/type of capacitor.
Martin
Thank you Martin,
Well, the uF-caps on the servo board where all pretty much out of spec, hence their replacement.
the famous blue axial Philips cap had about 21uF left instead of the specified 33uF !
the adjustment procedure is as per service manual as you will know -
I do not wildly adjust trimmers without marking where I started from, just in case !
but it did not work out anyhow - the "2" in the display just keeps blinking - that is where I stopped.
you mentioned to replace that blue axial Philips with the same or closely related typ: any suggestion in particular would be most helpful.
would just be wonderful if that fixes the problem ?!
Worst case scenario is that the laser has died,but this is unusual.
As Martin states,C2103 is crucial,and the original Philips type cap is now remarketed as Vishay(BC Components)No MAL20305339E3.If you run a web search locally,you should be able to find a supplier,or I can send you one.
Also,have a close look at the ribbon cable that connects the servo board to the transport mech and laser.
The focus coils connection can become burnt and o/c at the servo board connection.The ribbon can also become o/c where it has to bend with the movement of the tray.There are other ribbon connections under the mech too,that can be troublesome.
Follow the instructions in the manual to set the laser current preset to it's "datum" point,by measuring it's resistance,the actual current can be set if and when the machine is running.
Nice machine,all B&O designed apart from the Philips servo and optics.
Regards,
Nick
Thanks Nick for your contribution, much appreciated 🤗
Thank you for your kind offer regarding that critical blue Philips cap - I was able to order some of that type.
it surely can't be just the brand what is important here but the spec being 33uF -10/+50% ?!
There have been many discussions about 'laser death' and in many cases itbis NOT the laser that has died but other sources.
in that respect I am quietly confident that this laser is still ok ?!
From memory, when the laser swings in to atempt reading there should be a 'focus movement'
with the lense moving up and down, trying to focus ?? I can not see any up or down movement here ?
I was also looking at the focus motor amplifier - IC 6104 on the servo board ? Can this be ruled out as causing trouble ?
such a lovely machine has to come back to life !!
ALF: From memory, when the laser swings in to atempt reading there should be a 'focus movement' with the lense moving up and down, trying to focus ?? I can not see any up or down movement here ? I was also looking at the focus motor amplifier - IC 6104 on the servo board ? Can this be ruled out as causing trouble ? such a lovely machine has to come back to life !! ALF
Yes, normally the laser will try to focus, so if that does not work, maybe there is something worse wrong, other than the "usual". Did you measure if there are focus voltage, or that there is connection from the PCB board through the cable and to the laser ?
Maybe you can source some parts from old 35/4500/85/9500 units, they use almost the same laser PCB as the 65/7000 series.
/Jacob
ALF: it surely can't be just the brand what is important here but the spec being 33uF -10/+50% ?!
No.
The important thing is its HF filtering properties (capacitive reactance etc.).
Note that this component is the only one of its type on the board. All others are either radials or SMDs.
It was chosen for a reason.
And the range of the laser current trimmer is (sadly) wide enough to easily burn the laser if you work "blindfolded".
All it takes is one uncontrolled turn of the trimmer. 2/10th of a second at a too high setting and the
laser goes dark forever.
- And the laser is actually powered even if it doesn't read due to lack of filtering (because of C2103).
Many lasers died because "repairers" thought it was dying and cranked up its power in panic.
Replace the capacitors on the servo board and DON'T touch any adjustments.
The lack of focus coil movement is significant!
You can check the continuity of the focus coil at the servo board by metering across pin 13 and 14 of connector 31(the ribbon).It should read about 25ohm.If not,it suggests that the ribbon cable is o/c somewhere.I've never come across a o/c focus coil,but the ribbon and it's connectors can fail..
It's worth checking the laser current preset datum setting if you suspect that the machine has been interfered with previously.Measuring between pin 15 and16 of IC6101(TDA5708) should read about 550ohm.If it's thereabouts,don't touch the preset..
The mechanism in the CD55/65/7000 machines is unique to them,although the actual Rafoc assembly (coils and laser) can be found in other machines,although there were a lot of revisions,so these assemblies are not allway's swappable.
Good luck with it.
solderon29: The mechanism in the CD55/65/7000 machines is unique to them,although the actual Rafoc assembly (coils and laser) can be found in other machines,although there were a lot of revisions,so these assemblies are not allway's swappable. Good luck with it. Nick
I didn't meant as a "swapover", just that parts and IC's could be swapped if an IC was dead :) There is very little difference on the PCB between a 6500 and 35/4500 :) Mostly some transistors around the supply at the top of the board :)
/Weebyx
Indeed sir.I wasn't being critical!
This does'nt seem to be a servo board problem,other than the question of the notorious C2103?
I was thinking more of possibly having to swap the rafoc assembly.
Hi Nick,
well, I did not touch any adjustment trimmers !
Loaded a CD, play activated
I can measure about 26ohm across pin 13&14 at connector 31 and between 545-560 ohm across pin 15&16 at IC 6101.
the strange thing is the disc kept on spinning while measuring at IC6101 and I could see the number of tracks on the display as per TOC
the moment I removed the probes the disc stopped again ?
as posted earlier I replaced the uF capacitors on the servo board, including that critical blue Philips axial cap - but not with the same type, I am waiting
for the shipment to correct the replacement.
I wonder if I should also incude all those nF capacitors as well ??
cheers
ALF: Hi Nick, well, I did not touch any adjustment trimmers ! Loaded a CD, play activated I can measure about 26ohm across pin 13&14 at connector 31 and between 545-560 ohm across pin 15&16 at IC 6101. the strange thing is the disc kept on spinning while measuring at IC6101 and I could see the number of tracks on the display as per TOC the moment I removed the probes the disc stopped again ? as posted earlier I replaced the uF capacitors on the servo board, including that critical blue Philips axial cap - but not with the same type, I am waiting for the shipment to correct the replacement. I wonder if I should also incude all those nF capacitors as well ?? cheers ALF
I would hold all further debugging as long as C2103 is not of the correct type..
Thanks for the advice Jacob,
that is exactly the plan for now !
You cannot measure Ohms in a powered circuit.
Thanks Martin ......
how embarrassing.... Silly me, of course, the DMM applies voltage in order to measure resistance !!
it is just coincidence that I had a reading consistant with what Nick suggested I should be seing ?!
anyhow, still waiting for that famous blue Philips capacitor to arrive.
Will report back !
Something I would like to understand:
the SM shows the servo circuit diagram in the laser current adjustment section
30R3106 as a 1k trimmer and a 100ohm resistor in series why ?
in my BG6500 the 30R3106 = 4.7K trimmer ??
is this because we are dealing with a different installed laser?
as for measuring the resistance across pin15&16 on IC6101: it is about 3.6k
the resistance across pin14&13 is about 32ohm
I can actually see the lense going up and down during the focusing process, which I missed at first glance.
ALF: I can actually see the lense going up and down during the focusing process, which I missed at first glance. ALF
Then it becomes more likely that the C2103 is the problem, if it focuses, and if there is light in the laser when it tries, then wait for the C2103 before wrecking your head even more :) If the trimmer does not seem to have been changed before, then it is probably the one that needs to be there :)
ALF: Something I would like to understand: the SM shows the servo circuit diagram in the laser current adjustment section 30R3106 as a 1k trimmer and a 100ohm resistor in series why ? in my BG6500 the 30R3106 = 4.7K trimmer ?? is this because we are dealing with a different installed laser? as for measuring the resistance across pin15&16 on IC6101: it is about 3.6k the resistance across pin14&13 is about 32ohm I can actually see the lense going up and down during the focusing process, which I missed at first glance. ALF
If the C2103 does not fix the problem, then you can do some measuring again, I have seen 2 problems with all the 35/45/65/7000 cd's I have fixed and they are 99% the C2103 only (and the rest as a precaution).
I have seen 2 4500's where I needed to adjust the angle of the laser, but this is a last resort, since it is almost impossible to do, and you will be very lucky if it gets back to life. I did it both times, but took hours every night for days, just fiddling around since I do not have all the tools and stuff needed to do it as per service manual.
Both units had ALL capacitors changed, but could not read as they should, sometimes if I was lucky, I could change tracks to nr 8 or so very quick, they failed when reading tracks 1 and 2, but could read the middle of the cd fine.
Understand Jacob,
just mentioned the difference you can have from typ to typ sharing the same SM.
I will certainly wait for the arrival of that cap before any further action on the hardware.
While I am waiting fot that crucial cap replacement on the servo board to arrive a question about the actual cd- drive:
the CD6500/7000 use the Philips CDM 4/13 drive.
that looks suspiciously like the CDM 4/11 drive, apart from a triangular metal plate at the bottom/front part of the black resin drive housing.
could the CDM 4/11 be a suitable replacement, in case the laser in my CD6500 is cooked ?
The early BG5500 etc used the tried and tested induction motor for the disc,whereas the later versions used the dc motor,so the servo boards are not interchangeable,you would have to use mech and pcb together.
We'er all putting money on C2103 being the culprit,particularly now you say the focus coil is moving?
hi nick and all others who put money on the famous cap......
no, sad to say it is not cap 2103 - I reinstalled the replacement today after checking its capacity at 32.9 uF.
again, the focus coil is obviously working moving the lense up and down - I could not see a redish laser dot but used the
digital camera and there is was the pinkish/redish dot - that indicates to me the laser itself is still alive ?!!
I can see the disc initially spinning for the laser to read the TOC but stops again after two tries.
the laser current adjustment trimmer - a 4.7k trimmer - is set about in the middle.
could the focus offset need readjusting ?
I have not yet changed the bipolar cap 2159 nor any of the nF caps on the servo board.
really hate to mess around with those trimmers !
any further remedy suggestions ?
It was worth replacing the cap anyway!
Does the disc seem to spin at a normal speed when first tracking,or is it sluggish?
Can you check that the supply voltages are appearing quickly,ie,the +9-9,+5 and -6v at the five pin connector 33.
From your earlier posts,you seem to be familiar with the service mode operation.I wonder if you put the machine into service mode,but don't proceed for a few seconds,then try the various test's.If they all work,it would suggest that the power supply is sluggish in normal mode?
Well, no quite sure about ‘sluggish’ but apears to take a short moment to speed up - if that was what you meant ?!
I checked the voltages at plug 33 as suggested:
pin1 9.3V
pin2 5.2V
pin4 -5.9V
pin5 -9.1V
in the first service mode step:
2 is blinking on the display and wont steady via adjusting the Focus Offset trimmer as it should - the trimmer is now again where it was before.
that is where I stopped.
I wonder if it is worth checking those big caps on PCB 5 as well : C 3 /5/6/13/18/61 ?!
ALF: hi nick and all others who put money on the famous cap...... no, sad to say it is not cap 2103 - I reinstalled the replacement today after checking its capacity at 32.9 uF. again, the focus coil is obviously working moving the lense up and down - I could not see a redish laser dot but used the digital camera and there is was the pinkish/redish dot - that indicates to me the laser itself is still alive ?!! I can see the disc initially spinning for the laser to read the TOC but stops again after two tries. the laser current adjustment trimmer - a 4.7k trimmer - is set about in the middle. could the focus offset need readjusting ? I have not yet changed the bipolar cap 2159 nor any of the nF caps on the servo board. really hate to mess around with those trimmers ! any further remedy suggestions ? ALF
Normally, and DONT STARE DIRECTLY, it is possible to see the laser light with the naked eye, just from a slight angle from top of laser. So if there is no visible light, it makes me think that maybe the laser is actually either burned almost out, or there is a problem with the laser current. Can you measure the current to see if it is in spec according to the service manual ?
Of course Jacob,
I would not stare directly into the lens 😫
not quite sure how to go about the laser current adjustment/measurement though !
Measuring across 30R3102 which is a SMD component located on the solder sider of the servo board......
Is there an alternate way to make this work while anything need to stay connected ??
As mentioned previously getting the player into service mode already uncovers a problem with the focus offset adjustment?
ALF: Of course Jacob, I would not stare directly into the lens 😫 not quite sure how to go about the laser current adjustment/measurement though ! Measuring across 30R3102 which is a SMD component located on the solder sider of the servo board...... Is there an alternate way to make this work while anything need to stay connected ?? As mentioned previously getting the player into service mode already uncovers a problem with the focus offset adjustment? ALF
You can measure laser current between pin 28(+) on the big IC and the jumper(-) right next to the pin 1 of the IC, just next to the flat cable connector.
There are 2 jumpers at the connector, it needs to be the one towards the corner edge of the PCB, closest to pin 1 of the IC
These are measure point specified in the service manual.
As Dillen wrote somewhere, if you have not touched the 3106 trimmer, then the current should be well within spec of 50mV +- 5mV after changing the capacitors. If the current is out of spec, then be sure to change all caps before going further ahead.
But at least you can get an idea on if the current is ok as it is now.
Hi Jacob,
”.....be sure to change all caps....” are you referring to all the nF-caps on the servo board or the “big ones” on PCB5 ?
yes, the voltage reading for the laser adjustment was way out !??
previously in service mode I had a blinking ‘2’ on the display which now all of a sudden steady ???
scanning again through the SM I could not find any reference to those service points you suggested, only measuring across that SMD resistor on the solder side, which is next to impossible to do.
however your measuring points delivered -as said- a way out result.
all the uF-caps on the servo board have been replaced with the exception of C2159 = 1.5uF/50V - the SM says 470nF/63V?
the player is reading discs now and plays.......so far.
really not sure whether I should just leave it for now ?
sure, I could replace a few of the larger caps on PCB5.......guess itvwont do any damage?!
ALF: Hi Jacob, ”.....be sure to change all caps....” are you referring to all the nF-caps on the servo board or the “big ones” on PCB5 ? yes, the voltage reading for the laser adjustment was way out !?? previously in service mode I had a blinking ‘2’ on the display which now all of a sudden steady ??? scanning again through the SM I could not find any reference to those service points you suggested, only measuring across that SMD resistor on the solder side, which is next to impossible to do. however your measuring points delivered -as said- a way out result. all the uF-caps on the servo board have been replaced with the exception of C2159 = 1.5uF/50V - the SM says 470nF/63V? the player is reading discs now and plays.......so far. really not sure whether I should just leave it for now ? sure, I could replace a few of the larger caps on PCB5.......guess itvwont do any damage?! ALF
I looked in my BM4500 service manual, the 2 are almost 100% identical, and also did a measuring on my own CD7000 just to check that the points were the same. In my CD7000, the mV across those testpoints was approx. 52-54mV depending on track and so on.
What were your reading ? Did you make changes to the current trimmer ? This is very very very sensitive, and an almost "no touching" results in really big changes on the current. The service manual states that initial setting before power on, should be made by measuring ohms across that and one other resistor. Cant remember..
But, if you touched the trimmer, then you need to set it back so the current is right again(and cross fingers the laser is not dead now), if you did not touch, then you must do some other failure finding first.
The service mode 2 as I understand it, is used for the focus offset, and a blinking '2' should be adjusted with the other trimmer until it stops blinking, and then after that, the focus offset should be adjusted to 400 +-40mV when playing a disc.
Regarding the caps, I have never changed other caps that the ones Dillen supplies as a kit for the servo board. That is the C2103 and 4-6 others on the same board. 2 at the bottom, 2 at the top right, and 1 or 2 at the just above the flat cable connector.
many thanks for your pointers - very much appreciated.
we were obviously comparing different service manuals - the CD4500 SM is not available for download on the Beoworld site, only
for the the CD5500/6500/7000 models.
the first reading was about 9mV and no surprise nothing worked ! I suspect someone before me played with it....the famous phantom !
anyhow, the reading is now at around +/- 45mV, fluctuating according with different tracks. It played everything I threw at it so far...........