Can Moment output high resolution digital from Deezer to digital in on a Beolab?

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seethroughyou Posted: Sun, Sep 17 2017 6:04 PM

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Deezer HIFI prides itself on being able to stream everything from CD quality tracks to high resolution. The Moment is soon to have a new software update including this high resolution capability. Is it capable of outputting a digital stream at 24bit 192kHz to the new digital BL50 and 90s or is it down converted into 16bit 44.1khz?

I'm warming to the Moment since its last software update and am wary of going down the Core and iPad route as I dont really want any computery stuff in my lounge to distract me. Spend all day using computer and surfing devices at work.

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Millemissen replied on Sun, Sep 17 2017 9:21 PM

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The BS Moment has analog/PL connections for BeoLab's and WPL/WiSA, which by nature is a digital connection.

WPL/WiSA transmits the soundsignal in 24/96.

MM

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Millemissen replied on Sun, Sep 17 2017 9:37 PM

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Wireless PowerLink using the WiSA technology.

WiSA technology has now been used by B&O for wireless transmission of sound from source to speaker for some 5 years.

MM

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Millemissen replied on Sun, Sep 17 2017 10:01 PM

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The BS Moment has no cabled digital output.

The BS Core has an optical/SPDIF-out - 24/96.

https://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/collection/sound-systems/beosound-core

MM

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seethroughyou replied on Sun, Sep 17 2017 11:14 PM

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Millemissen:

The BS Moment has no cabled digital output.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

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Jeff replied on Mon, Sep 18 2017 1:18 AM

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seethroughyou:

Millemissen:

 

The BS Moment has no cabled digital output.

 

MM

 

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

 

 

 

Thank you for advice. This is quite unbelievable. No wired digital output. So this isn't the optimum partner to B&O's new speakers that encourage a digital input.

There's that stunning, unified, well thought out product planning and integration at work.

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Geoff Martin replied on Mon, Sep 18 2017 5:42 AM

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Millemissen:

WPL/WiSA transmits the soundsignal in 24/96.

Hi,

Although WiSA supports bitrates up to 96/24, Wireless Power Link is limited to 48/24 permanently.

This is due to the fact that the error rate in WiSA/WPL is defined as a probability per number of transmitted bits. By halving the sampling rate, you halve the error rate per second.

And, before anyone jumps to any conclusions...

• In our original testing of WPL before we released it, I ran a test where I checked transmitted bits vs. received bits. In a configuration with no outside disturbance where I detected 0 bit errors after 11 days of continuous streaming.
• WPL errors are at the bit level (they are not sample or block dropouts) and can be the result of things like extreme distance between Tx and Rx or disturbance of the field between the Tx and Rx devices.

Cheers
-geoff

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Duels replied on Mon, Sep 18 2017 7:38 AM

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seethroughyou:

I'm warming to the Moment since its last software update and am wary of going down the Core and iPad route as I dont really want any computery stuff in my lounge to distract me. Spend all day using computer and surfing devices at work.

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seethroughyou replied on Mon, Sep 18 2017 9:14 AM

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Geoff Martin:

Millemissen:

WPL/WiSA transmits the soundsignal in 24/96.

Hi,

Although WiSA supports bitrates up to 96/24, Wireless Power Link is limited to 48/24 permanently.

Cheers
-geoff

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for the ultimate reply.

I am about to take into care one of your offspring that you are well proud off. They will join my 4 year old and 9 month old - a pair of 2 year old BL90s.

Naturally, the question arises what audio system should i use to get the very best sonic performance out of them. Some of my music is in 24bit 192khz whilst rest in minimum CD quality. I will probably pay for Deezer as my trial of it has been addictive and the are soon to go high res to where it allows. It's curious that the Moment doesn't output in high resolution and doesn't have wired digital outputs but you probably cant answer for one of your colleagues. That leaves me with the Core but i'm reluctant to have a ipad in the room as i can see myself using it to surf, check emails when i really shouldnt be. Best not to have temptation in the room. The room should be a temple for listening to music and occassionally nodding at the wife when she says something.

i was under the impresssion (correct me if im worng) that you want to avoid as much as possible any unnecessary digital conversion until the very last moment, preferably in the active speaker in the case of a BL50/90. If the Moment has to covnert any incoming high res to 24/48 is that deterimental and undesireable for sonic quality or imperceptible. There has been an endless wisdom that unless your record was mastered carefully, 16bit 44.1khz is more than enough.

I guess at this moment some will be questionign what's wrong with WISA/WPL - well it can be unreliable as my audition of BL18s that were in the same room at the dealers but kept losing connection. I dont want to go down this route only to find a weeks later i get problems.

Finally, the Beomusic App is actually rather nice in its look - clean, dark, nice fonts. Would be good to use this app rather than some other, hence my desire to stay with B&O.

Although you're a speaker guy, you may have some valuable wisdom on how to get the best out of speakers in terms of what's driving them.

Ta very much,

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Millemissen replied on Mon, Sep 18 2017 10:04 AM

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Hi Geoff

I stand corrected - you're the man ;-)

MM

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Geoff Martin replied on Mon, Sep 18 2017 1:18 PM

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seethroughyou:

i was under the impresssion (correct me if im worng) that you want to avoid as much as possible any unnecessary digital conversion until the very last moment, preferably in the active speaker in the case of a BL50/90. 

Hi,

Firstly, congratulations!

Secondly, I debated giving the short-form answer, but then I thought that I'd spend some time giving the explanation. Feel free to skip straight to the end if you're not interested in the details. :-)

Without getting into differences of mastering (which are significant) and recording "quality" (which are more significant):

Let's assume that you are faced with comparing two recordings that use all of the technical capabilities of each's encoding system  - one at 44.1 kHz / 16-bit, the other at 192 kHz / 24-bit. We'll pretend that the real world does not exist, and that these two recordings exploit the maximum possible technical potential of the two.

The 44.1/16 recording will have an signal bandwidth of 0 Hz to 22.05 kHz, and a maximum possible dynamic range of 93 dB.

The 192/24 recording will have a signal bandwidth of 0 Hz to 96 kHz, and a maximum possible dynamic range of 141 dB.

(if you'd like to do these calculations yourself, the signal bandwidth of a PCM digital signal is from 0 Hz to one-half of the sampling rate. The maximum dynamic range is 6 * number of bits - 3. This is because you get 6 dB per bit, minus 3 for the dither.)

We'll ignore whether any of these  numbers is "enough".

I'll also avoid the argument surrounding bandwidth, and whether you need to have a 96 kHz sine tone coming out of your loudspeakers. I asked our new puppy, and he said that he would prefer to NOT hear 96 kHz sine tones, thank you very much...

So, now's let's look at the two possible input paths of the BeoLab 90, considering dynamic range only.

The digital inputs are passed through a sampling rate converter with a dynamic range of 138 dB.

The analogue inputs go through an ADC that has a dynamic range of 122 dB.

So, (ignoring the specifications of the analogue output of whatever device you're connecting) this means that, if you connect a player to BL90 and play a 24-bit file, the "bottleneck" in the dynamic range is the input of the loudspeakers, regardless of which one you use. For the 16-bit file, the "bottleneck" is the bit depth of the file itself.

However, this is not enough information, because the volume control is in the BeoLab 90.

So, in order for the noise floor of the 16-bit file to reach the threshold of hearing (0 dB SPL), you would have to turn up the volume so that the maximum output of the loudspeakers is 93 dB SPL - which is not painful, but loud-ish...

On the other hand, in order for the noise floor of the 24-bit file to reach the threshold of hearing, you would have to turn up the volume so that the maximum output of the loudspeakers is 141 dB SPL - which is not possible (and if it were, it would be VERY unhealthy...).

Then again, almost all of this is basically irrelevant, since there are almost no recordings that exploit the entire dynamic range available on a CD - let alone a 24-bit recording.

So, assuming that the analogue output stage of your player is reasonably good, and speaking from a point of view of dynamic range only, then it really doesn't matter whether you go analogue or digital.

When I do demos, I typically connect an Oppo 105 multi-disc player to a pair of BeoLab 90's or 50's using a coaxial S/P-DIF cable AND an Line-level analogue stereo connection, with the S/P-DIF getting priority. The reasons for this is that, if I play a PCM disc (like CD), a file from the USB, or from a streaming service like Tidal - then the Oppo outputs on S/P-DIF and analogue, and the 90s/50s default to the S/P-DIF input. However, if i put an SACD in the player, then the S/P-DIF shuts off and the signal only comes out on the analogue line output. The 90s/50s then automatically switch over and keep playing music. From an audio quality point of view, I have never found anyone (including myself) that has noticed the difference.

However, if you want the short answer: use the digital connection if you can. If you can't, don't worry. :-)

Cheers
-geoff

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CB replied on Mon, Sep 18 2017 5:40 PM

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Geoff Martin:

assuming that the analogue output stage of your player is reasonably good, and speaking from a point of view of dynamic range only, then it really doesn't matter whether you go analogue or digital.

And this assumption is for a BeoSound Moment plus high-end Beolab speakers, listening to the same digital source.

What I read here is this (correct me if I'm wrong !) : "Cook the soup once or twice, no matter, you'll get the same quantity at the end."

But what about the taste of the soup ?

We are not listening to a quantity of bits, but to music. I understand that the noise level is hard to ear, but I also understood that DACs tint the sound.

Going through the Moment's DAC, then going through the Beolab's DAC may not give the same tint as going only through the Beolab's DAC.

So the quantity of bits may be the same at the end, the sound will differ.

NB : I'm not saying one solution is better than the other, it's certainly a matter of personal taste.

Or am I wrong ? (Thank you Geoff for this technical explanation )

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Geoff Martin replied on Tue, Sep 19 2017 10:13 AM

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Hi CB,

I was careful to point out that I was only talking about one technical quality of the sound - that of the maximum possible dynamic range - in order to stay as product-independent as possible.

Technically speaking, you are correct. The DAC of the source (whether it is a BeoSound Moment or something else) has an effect on the audio signal path, as do the analogue stages that are between it at the physical output of the device.

However: I'm interpreting your statement "DACs tint the sound" to mean that the DAC and analogue components have an audible effect on the magnitude response (including changes in signal level, which, in theory, do not effect the magnitude response). To this I would respond that, if that aspect of those components result in an audible difference, then something isn't working as it should - or it needs to be updated with a newer device. Also, if the DAC is exhibiting changes in magnitude response with changes in level (staying far enough away from the noise floor to rely on the measurements), then it is distorting, and something is really not working/designed correctly...

It's certainly true that, in the "olden days", the DAC could easily have been the weakest link in a digital/analogue audio signal path. With contemporary components, however, the weakest links are very likely to be found elsewhere. The typical suspects these days are likely to be

• problems in the recording (e.g. basic distortion or weird artefacts from things like pitch correction software), 
• the distribution format (see below), 
• the transmission system and its inherent errors
• the analogue-to-digital converter (or ADC) (typically as a source of noise)
• in software (the sampling rate converter is the usual suspect these days  - see http://src.infinitewave.ca as a good comparison of various problems found in many different hw/sw platforms.) 

Regarding the distribution format:

Of course, the simplest thing to complain about is MP3 - or a lossy CODEC. This is even more true now that many/most people are using streaming services. However, sometimes artefacts are "hidden". For example, for at least one of the so-called "lossless" or "uncompressed" or "high fidelity" streaming services, SOME of the tracks are, indeed 44.1/16-bit copies of the CD. However, some of the other tracks on the same service are (for example) in AAC format - a lossy CODEC, albeit a good one at high bitrates. (Note that this information is displayed on some players if you are a geek and ask for the technical information while the track is playing.) On other tracks, you are indeed getting a 44.1/16-bit stream, but with a watermark whose artefacts sound suspiciously similar to a lossy CODEC. Finally, some people have started to post-process music tracks to be more easily identified by automatic track identification applications. That processing can also result in weird artefacts that are also audible.

In addition, as has been proven by various persons, just because a purchased audio file is in "high resolution" format does not mean that you're getting a technically "better" (or even different) signal than if you had bought the CD. But you might - this has to be evaluated on a file-by-file basis.

So, to expand on your culinary-based metaphor, just because your have a big pipe coming into your house doesn't mean that you're getting the water you need - nor does it mean that the water is pure...

Cheers
-geoff

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Roger replied on Wed, Sep 20 2017 9:57 AM

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Thanks, Geoff - excellent information.

I have used the BL5's for some 10+ years, and must admit that the BS9k was a better source than the BS5 - and later the BS Moment. I am still on the fence regarding the BL50's for some minor issues: I have learned that the BS Moment will not be updated to include BL50/90 in the speaker setup (just use BL5, the dealer said) and as I currently have the speakers connected to a BV (75" Avant, non-NG) I see that only BL5 and BL90 are available in the speaker setup menu. Does this matter?

I use the same OPPO player, but as stated at the start of this thread by seethough... - I would prefer to stick to the BS Moment as the user interface is superior with Deezer.

Connecting a pair of BL50's to a BV without BL50 in setup menu, and using the BS Moment as the source (and not the OPPO or some high-end Linn gear) leaves me with a feeling of not unlocking the potential in the BL50's... maybe I worry too much.

Roger

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Millemissen replied on Wed, Sep 20 2017 10:12 AM

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Roger:

(just use BL5, the dealer said) 

Maybe you should ask him, why he recommended that!

The BL50's have (much) more in common with the BL90's than with the BL5's.

MM

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Geoff Martin replied on Thu, Sep 21 2017 2:58 PM

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Roger:

Thanks, Geoff - excellent information.

I have used the BL5's for some 10+ years, and must admit that the BS9k was a better source than the BS5 - and later the BS Moment. I am still on the fence regarding the BL50's for some minor issues: I have learned that the BS Moment will not be updated to include BL50/90 in the speaker setup (just use BL5, the dealer said) and as I currently have the speakers connected to a BV (75" Avant, non-NG) I see that only BL5 and BL90 are available in the speaker setup menu. Does this matter?

I use the same OPPO player, but as stated at the start of this thread by seethough... - I would prefer to stick to the BS Moment as the user interface is superior with Deezer.

Connecting a pair of BL50's to a BV without BL50 in setup menu, and using the BS Moment as the source (and not the OPPO or some high-end Linn gear) leaves me with a feeling of not unlocking the potential in the BL50's... maybe I worry too much.

Hi Roger,

For your BeoVision Avant for now, you should select BeoLab 90's in the menus if you have connected BeoLab 50's. The primary reason for this is to ensure that the latency management is done correctly, thus ensuring that the time alignment of the 50's with other loudspeakers in the system is maintained correctly. Note that, in order for this to behave properly, the BeoLab 90s/50s MUST be set to be in AUTO latency mode. This will allow them to be controlled by the television.

Cheers
-geoff

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seethroughyou replied on Thu, Sep 21 2017 7:34 PM

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Sorry, to bring this up again, for years we were told ideally to use a digial feed into BL5 yet in your reply Geoff you say it doesnt matter that the Moment lacks wired digital output into the BL50/90 in terms of sonic quality and analogue feed from the Moment to BL50/90 . These two pieces of advice seem rather contradictory to me. There is presumably an optimum way (and less optimum way) of connecting a piece of gear to these new digital speakers - that being with a digital feed to them, so how can you now say that it doesnt matter or doesnt have an effect on listening. If it never mattered then why for years were we told its better to provide a digital feed to the BL5. The lack of wired digital out also seems to me to be a significant omission. I guess some of are wondering that what we've been taught that it's always preferable to do as few AD-DA and DA-AD conversions as possible in the chain. So, armed with this wisdom, in terms of sonic quality it does matter that the Moment lacks a digital output and it's a disadvantage that your digital stream gets converted to analogue by the Moment's DAC only to be covnverted back the BL90's ADC into speaker DSP before it then gets coverted back to analogue before it meets the amp and speaker drive unit.

Furthermore, why are you recommending in your ideas catalogue people consider an Auralic or an OPPO digital feed to the BL90s for a better audio experience than a Moment - surely 1s and 0s are 1s and 0s as long as they are all there and without regard to whether they originated from a £50 CD player, a £3000 Auralic streamer or a £20,000 CD transport.

Very best.

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CB replied on Thu, Sep 21 2017 9:57 PM

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seethroughyou:

...it doesnt matter that the Moment lacks wired digital output into the BL50/90 in terms of sonic quality...

...If it never mattered then why for years were we told...

If you re-read carefully Geoff's answer to my question, you'll see that he didn't wrote that, but "It's certainly true that, in the "olden days", the DAC could easily have been the weakest link in a digital/analogue audio signal path. With contemporary components, however, the weakest links are very likely to be found elsewhere."

I also emphasized this at the beginning of my question : "And this assumption is for a BeoSound Moment plus high-end Beolab speakers, listening to the same digital source" because I was suspecting something had changed.

I was thinking as you seethroughyou and apparently, our knowledge is...dated 

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Geoff Martin replied on Fri, Sep 22 2017 7:42 AM

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Hi Seethroughyou,

As CB has already pointed out, times change. It is true that, with a BeoLab 5, you will get a better dynamic range using the digital input than using the analogue input. This is not because of the DAC of the source - it's because of the ADC of the BeoLab 5.

The analogue input of the BeoLab 50/90 has a significantly higher dynamic range (stated another way, a lower level of inherent noise, since the sensitivities of the BeoLab 5 and the BeoLab 90 are very similar), but as I pointed out in my first response, it, too, is not as wide as the digital input (whose dynamic range is limited by the sampling rate converter), so, technically speaking, it's also better to use the digital input than the analogue input. However, whether that difference can be perceived is dependent on other factors.

If you are playing a 16-bit file through a contemporary DAC (like the one in the Moment, for example) to a contemporary ADC (like the one in BeoLab 90, for example) at a listening level that is not extremely high (say, a peak level of 90 dB SPL or less), then this should not (maybe even "will not") be audibly different than using a fully-digital connection. This is because the weakest link in the chain is (very likely) the 16-bit file - even in a case where the recording actually uses all of those bits.

As I said before, a fully-digital path does not necessarily guarantee a "pure signal". 15 years ago, the weakest links in the chain were probably the analogue-to-digital and digital-to-analogue conversion stages. These days, depending on the device (and I'm talking about all audio devices from all manufacturers...) the weakest link in the chain could easily be in the digital path somewhere. This means that, in some cases, with some devices (both hardware and software), from some manufacturers, it MAY give you a better result to take an analogue connection than a digital one.

However, I have to stress that there is no "rule of thumb" for this - it has to be evaluated individually by device. And, to make things more confusing, as soon as you get a software update, any conclusions you may have made about this issue may no longer be true. This is because a software update could include improvements in, for example, a software-based sampling rate converter.

Generally, this means that, when I answer questions like this one, I am also very careful to be either adequately specific or adequately vague. :-)  The answer that I wrote to your original question was restricted to vaguely talk about dynamic range - and specifically about BeoLab 50/90's input stages. If you had asked about connected a BeoSound 9000 to a BeoLab 5, the answer would have been significantly different.

The principal reason for Bang & Olufsen recommending the Auralic Aries or the Oppo Blu-ray player as an alternative source to the Moment was not due to the digital output. It was due to the fact that many customers who would consider BeoLab 90 would also be interesting in playing either DSD or 192 kHz audio files, neither of which is supported by Moment, as is stated in its technical information.  The Oppo has the added benefit that it also supports SACD and DVD-Audio, the reports of the death of which have been somewhat exaggerated.... At least at my house... 

On the other hand, if you were to walk into the listening room here in Struer right now, and ask for a demo of BeoLab 90, you would notice that the source that I reach for first is a 20-year old "professional" CD player, connected through S/P-DIF to the BeoLab 90's, playing a CD that was recorded in 1984.

Cheers
-geoff

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Martin replied on Fri, Sep 22 2017 10:37 AM

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Hi Geoff,

I have Beolab 5. As you said in your reply is that with Beolab 5 I should use the digital-in for best audioquality. If I have a Besound 9000 or a Beosound 5 - do You strongly recommend using the digital path instead of Powerlink? Is there a "big" difference between powerlink and digital-in regarding Beolab 5?

What about the Beosound 9000 and Beosound 5 regarding there DAC?

Best Regards
Martin Ström

SWEDEN

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Geoff Martin replied on Fri, Sep 22 2017 1:21 PM

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Hi Martin,

The BeroSound 9000 + BeoLab 5 has a good (and recommended) option. In this case, you can connect the S/P-DIF (which the BS9000 sends out at full scale - a bit-for-bit match with the CD) AND the Power Link to the BeoLab 5.

You then have to put the BeoLAb 5 in a special mode that plays the S/P-DIF input, but with the volume control set by the Power Link data. (I don't know how to put the BL5 in this mode - but maybe someone else here does? If not, I can ask my colleagues here next week...) 

So, in this case, the Power Link connection is only used for the volume setting. The audio data is coming in on digital.

I don't know whether this is also possible with a BeoSound 5... But I can find out next week if no one else here comes in with the answer first.

Cheers

-geoff

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stefan replied on Fri, Sep 22 2017 1:51 PM

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BL5 must be in CD mode to switch to digital input. Maybe this is what you mean by special mode..(?)

In this case you need Powerlink for turning on/off, volume setting and audiomode detection, if I remember correctly.

This is also possible with the BS5, as it is with a BS7000 and the Beogram CD7000 (highly recommended).

And it will also work in an AV setup with a Beovision with speakers connected. In this setup Powerlink information for on/off, volume setting and mode will come from the videomaster, S/P-DIF connected directly with audio source (BS9000, BS5...).

Stefan

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Millemissen replied on Fri, Sep 22 2017 8:35 PM

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Sadly the CD command is seldom used nowadays!

MM

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Millemissen replied on Fri, Sep 22 2017 8:36 PM

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Geoff Martin:

So, in this case, the Power Link connection is only used for the volume setting. The audio data is coming in on digital.

Waiting for DPL......

MM