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This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I just installed the stands for my recently acquired M100 speakers and changed the speaker cables from so-so cables to proper B&O cables I was looking forward to the transformation.
What I got however was a VIOLENTLY SHAKING left speaker. I have had stereo systems since my teens and I have NEVER seen anything remotely like this.
At low volume (2) on the Beolab the speakers (both of them) sound fine, but anything more and the left speakers begins to shake violently sending the tonearm on the Beogram 8000 skating across the record.
Even when I try to restrain the speaker with both hands the shaking is out of control.
This unexpected situation is very much a mini earthquake.
Just to be clear, I had these speakers playing with this system for several weeks, and the M100's performed beautifully. I was missing some of the hardware to mount the speakers to their stands, and finally "stole" the brass bushings from my M75's as the 100's are so much heavier and since I had a nice pair of speaker wires that also came with the M75's, I decided to "reward" the M100's with those nice B&O cables.
Anyone who has ever had a laundry dryer BADLY out of balance or a flat front tire on your car, will know what this speaker is doing.
Any idea what has happened?
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
It suggests to me that the woofer is acting directly on the baffle and that the rubber suspension is not absorbing the movement - the speaker is clearly not seized or it would simply not produce bass. I take it that taking them off the stands makes little difference?
Peter
A bit more information.
This grotesque harmonic distortion appears to have something to do with the interaction between the Beogram 8000 tonearm and the speaker on the stand.
I tried my trusty 8-Track, the violent shaking disappears. So I tired placing an enormous bath towel under the Beogram, which improved things, but did not eliminate the problem. Then tried placing a large towel over the Beolab and placing the 8000 on top, still the shaking persists.
What baffles me is for weeks I played this setup at decent volume with the M100 speakers sitting directly on the table, in the exact same position on a towel to protect the veneer. The only difference is I added the stands.
This is an odd situation (that goes without saying) but with our extremely tight living space, the table is the only available space for these speakers, the Beogram 8000 and the Beolab 5000.
What further confuses me is way back when; when I was "thinking" of purchasing my first Beogram 4002 the B&O dealer brought one to my house and deliberately placed it on top of my McIntosh ML-2 speaker, to SHOW how well the Beogram was dampened with its amazing suspension. The gimmick worked and I bought the 4002 on the spot.
So I am wondering WHY the speaker sitting squarely on the common table is NOT a problem, but on its stand IS? Then is there anything I can do about this other than removing the stands?
Hi Jeff,
I am not sure I fully understand the scenario.
When your M100 speakers were not on the stands do I understand that they were sitting on the same table that your Beogram is sitting? Now you have the M100 speakers on the stands, are the stands on the floor near the table or are the stands sitting on the table?
John
Hi John,
Always so nice to hear from you.
The set-up is unreasonable for reasons of no concern to anyone here at Beoworld. However, the left speaker, AKAI 8-Track, Beogram 8000, and Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 are all located on a large black table. The right speaker is located atop a console TV and is not part of this problem.
Yes, it is rather strange to have speakers on stands on top of furniture, but there is no other space available. It looks a bit odd as well, but the right speaker sure sounds great at ear level.(With the left speakers turned off)
I realize I have some kind of harmonic distortion going on, what I don't understand is why the stands "appear" to be the issue.
Further the violence of the shaking can NOT be over stated, it causes the Beolab to pulsate and the tonearm to just fly over the entire LP. I have experienced harmonic distortion before where it was loud and annoying, this is beyond that and into frightening.
I would have thought that the stands would be far better than the speakers sitting directly on the same table as the Beogram, but that is not the case.
The obvious solution all things considered is to take the speakers off their stands, but before I do that I wanted to see if there might be a solution which would allow me to continue to use these handsome stands. The speakers are so much more impressive on their custom stands.
Due to your room environment I would recommend not using the stands for now. Not just due to the problem but because those stands are really for floor placement and adjusting the speakers at that level. In your case you already have the M100's off the floor. So with that being the case I would experiment with arranging the M100's on your tables for the best possible sound under those requirements. Save the speaker stands of course for some future time where you may need them.
Regards,John
Have you tried to swap the 2 speakers?
Office: Beomaster 3000-2 with Beovox P45 (all in white)
Living room: Beomaster 7000 and Beogram 7000 with Beovox RL 7000 (all in white)
Kitchen: Beocenter 2300 with Beovox 4500 (not available in white :-(
The stands are rather impressive, and the speakers look MUCH more imposing than merely sitting atop a nondescript black table.... although at the same time, a bit odd.
In any case the M100's played beautifully for weeks until I put them on their stands. I very much doubt anything "failed" in the speaker due to being moved about, so the culprit almost certainly is the stand transmitting some sort of unacceptable vibration and being picked up by the MMC 6000 cartridge.
It was quite an experience, the Beogram had the stylus both bouncing and skating across one of my favourite records, the Beolab vibrating like a especially nasty four cylinder motor with a bad timing issue, and the M100 literally swaying on its stand. With no exaggeration I can honestly say I have never seen anything like this before.
Really scared the (you know what) out of me and I can't imagine it did the M100 any good either.
My own theory is the massive vibrations were picked up by the MMC 6000 and relayed back to the speakers and it multiplied. My very own personal mini earthquake.
One day I will laugh about this one, but right now it was too much like a Marx Brothers movie for my taste. I pushed the volume slider to 3.5 and the speaker started rocking around so badly that I grabbed it, I then HAD to let one arm free to turn down the volume.
Had I had any idea this could possibly happen, I am sure I would have used great caution, but I didn't. I just turned the volume up to enjoy the speakers on their stands and all the above "happened."
If anyone doesn't really believe this story, that's perfectly OK, I don't know that I would have believed it had I not seen it for myself.
Later this evening, when I have some help, the speakers will come off their stands.
Beold: Have you tried to swap the 2 speakers?
Thought of that, but I think I will first try removing the stand. Thanks for the suggestion.
Certainly an interesting set up! Are the transit screws on the Beogram completely free - must be feedback but the suspension on the 8000 is very good usually! A video clip could be quite something to watch! Never had this with my M100s and have played them very loud using a Beogram 8000 amongst others.Admittedly, never with a large speaker on the same table!
Hello Peter,
The set-up is certainly not the best, but sans the stands, worked perfectly well.
I am not concerned about the Beogram 8000 as the Beolab was vibrating badly and the speaker was physically moving, which can not be good.
It must be the stands, so I am waiting for help as these speakers are too heavy in the tight space available to try to move them alone.
I mean REALISTICALLY I took them down from the table, laid them on their sides (on carpet) gently, installed the stands, and put them back on the tables. What could possibly have happened to the speaker under that situation?
I'll have the stands removed this evening and post my findings, which should be predictable.
I even tried a VERY large folded bath towel under the Beogram, which improved things, but not completely.
I agree, a video clip would be interesting, but this is NOT something I wish to relive.
I know you don't want to try the vibrating speaker ride again but it is pretty interesting. If possible can you carve out some space on the floor to try the M100's on their stands? I would like to know if there is any vibration at all when they are operated on the floor. How is the bolt for the speaker angle attached? Does it have a rubber stop?
Hi John and Peter,
Wow, I admit that took me completely by surprise, the entertainment factor, I had not considered that. I was even admonished later last evening, "You know, you really should have taken a video of that."Ya think? Rats, a missed opportunity.
As a kid I once went out in a hurricane and filmed it for posterity. (I still have the 8mm film) so perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised by the interest in my "little event."
Guys, I really hate to disappoint, I really do, but by the time I saw John's post, I had already removed the stands and restored the brass bushings to their rightful owners. (The M75 speakers)
John, there is sufficient space (barely) to have placed the errant speaker on the floor in front of the table, but as there is no room to walk around with it there, I saw no reason to see if that (unworkable) solution would solve the vibration problem.
There is another factor to (possibly) be considered, the sound wave vibrations were increasing exponentially and with the Beogram 8000's tonearm literally, and I MEAN LITERALLY bouncing all over the LP, I would imagine once the tonearm reached pickup, the sonic booms would diminish.
I am not technically oriented like you gentlemen, but I can't imagine that what took place here, as exciting as it "may" have been, was especially good for either the M100 speaker or the Beolab.
Again siting my lack of technical training, I am a bit confused as to why a speaker sitting flat on a table doesn't cause sonic booms, but elevating the speaker, which I would have seen as preferable, DOES cause monstrous sonic BOOMS!
Guys,
Thought you might like to see the "tight" set-up.Just click on the photo and you can see the full view.
The short answer is room resonance modes. And of course that impossible table setup!
There’s a simple feedback phenomenon taking place here. The M100 purposeful bass drivers, along with too small a room, the table, create those ominous vibrations that are fed back to the turntable.
Do you use the bl...y loudness filter? I guess you do, and that would clearly be and additional cause to your trouble my friend.
As far as I'm concerned, there is no loudness, there never was, there never will be one.
What's with that awful loudness filter anyway?
Jacques
Hi Jacques,
My goodness, am I to understand that you don't like my crowed set-up? My, my, my...... what can I say? The opposite side of the room is virtually as "bad" with a Beomaster 2400.2, Beocord 8004, BeoSound Century, and Beogram 4004..... with M75 speakers.
Loudness boost, oh gosh, you got me there, but all the other setting are neutral or ZERO.
We have the deal of a lifetime, but to get it we had to go from 2,800 square feet to 2,000 square feet and the end result is like living in a well furnished sardine can. We had to move the living room into a small bedroom, which is now referred to as the media room, and oh brother is that room ever tight.
It had not occurred to me that the room is too small for the M100's. Actually physically it isn't, BUT there is so much large scale furniture, the effect of a small space is in force.
I know that everything is too cramped, and the Beovirus doesn't at all help. Truth is we live in a museum, a whimsical museum, all displayed and enjoyed with a bit of flare....... or so I hope.
Contingencies...
Even with every tone setting zeroed, the bass boost is really too much, and big speakers don’t need it anyway. Just turn it off and enjoy. I never use it on my Beolab full system.
To me it is the main culprit.
And don't get me wrong, I also have stuff everywhere... I am just lucky enough to have a big room (4.5 metres by 9 with high ceiling), so I have plenty of space in the middle for my speakers. And I have a huge attic too, of similar proportions.
Hey Jacques,
The first thing I noticed, and I mean really noticed when I went from S75 speakers to M75 speakers with my ever trusty (and dependable) Beomaster 2400.2 was I needed to reduce the bass setting. The S75's needed a bit more bass for my "North American" taste, but the M75's surely didn't.
And the M100's are MUCH more bassy than the M75's, so for you kind sir, I un-selected the bass boost option.
The M100's are just a fantastic speaker, so much so that I thought they would eclipse the M75's in my "judgement." That has NOT been the case, as I absolutely LOVE the M75's.
Both systems greatly enhance my daily exercise program. A little driving music and I can get in an additional set or two. Well, it works for me.
As always, thank you for your wisdom and interest, both are appreciated!
Big speakers like these may not be intrinsically bass heavy, it’s just that they are adapted to larger rooms. So yes they will be too bass heavy in small rooms because they just not couple to the room as they should.
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As I have said, the room is not small, the major factor is the large-scale furniture, the room has a canopied king-size bed with twin Armoires, flanking a storage headboard. Add to that two display tables for stereos and you have extremely “well utilized space.” Take out both stereos and the room is quite handsome, but then, what’s the fun it that?
It’s all about the Beovirus, I have two full stereo systems in the dining room. I say they are delightful, my father-in-law however says, “The room is too cramped.” The room is a visual delight….. I say the man lacks imagination.
Could also be the floor if it is concrete or wooden - if I play my M100's up load with Vinyl then I get feedback going back into the turntable and the speakers - other factors are the amount of bass - turntable lid being up (although I am not sure on that one) etc. etc. etc.
Thats what I'm assuming, too! For me this is a kind of a feedback - the bass of the left speaker inititiates a sound (bass) on the table which ist caught by the turntable and then - small timeshift due to the electronics - given amplified back to speaker.
The speaker itself forwards this signal - over the table and the air to the turntable and round it goes ;-)
You have to isolate/separate the speaker and the turntable!
Good suggestions all.
Although I absolutely do NOT understand it, one can not argue with success. With the stands removed and the speakers sitting directly on a cheap, Formica covered particleboard table, there is no problem. I would have thought the speakers where they are would be the worst possible choice with the isolation of the heavy stands being a considerable improvement. But that is NOT the case here.
And yes, I am sure the bass had a lot to do with it. Jacques "charmed" me into turning off the LOUDNESS option, which might have helped.
However when the oscillation starts it magnifies geometrically, which was rather intimidating to watch. With the speaker (slightly) rocking, the Beolab in FULL buzzing vibration, and the MMC 6000 cartridge bouncing on the LP like a basket ball..... I was thinking I needed to locate an exorcist. That's a joke, but not entirely.
I wonder, had this continued if there could be physical damage to either speaker or amplifier? In this "exciting" example I believe (hope) the duration and volume level (4) was insufficient to have done any permanent damage beyond my own personal psyche.
I think the only damage you would need to worry about in that audio earthquake is to your phono stylus/cantilever bouncing. Hopefully that is okay. Regarding the stands...that is why I am interested to see how they would have done located on the floor. The stands are heavy but do have mechanical connection points so I wonder if there was room for movement. .
With your speakers in their current location what kind of vibrations do you feel on the table, the Beogram cabinet and the speaker cabinet? With the speakers sitting squarely on the table there may not be any room for them to vibrate into oscillation like they can when hanging on the stands.
Audio earthquake? Those two words say it all...... it was. (About a 6.5)
Good news vis-a-vis damage, although I would be VERY upset if the MMC 6000 cartridge was damaged. The MMC is a remarkable stylus, but as we know, these cartridges are getting elderly and the suspension hardens. I have a back-up MMC 6000, but in my opinion, these cartridges do best when used occasionally, and I have never actually used that cartridge. Both 6000's were gifts from a really good friend in California and the one in use "appears" fine.
The stands, as they are now are completely loose, that is to say if you pick them up by the T-bar the arm will slide until it hits the nut, or about 1'. If they should be secured in some fashion, mine aren't.
I never intended for these speakers to reside on the same table as the turntable, but planning this as a temporary move, I put two old towels under the speakers to protect the veneers, while awaiting connecting parts for the stands.However I imagine there is very little movement between the speaker and the table.
Just to be clear, the left speaker sits next to the Beogram while the right speakers is located on top a vintage (1983) Sony 26" console television. The right speaker was conspicuously NOT part of the audio nightmare.
Lastly, the ultimate plan is to have my Beomaster 4400 rebuilt and once good as new, placed where the Beolab now is. Then The Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 pair moved with the M100 speakers to the living room with the Beogram 4000, the living room being MUCH larger space, if equally over crowded.