ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi everyone,
I have watched this thread with interest over the past few days and it has been good to hear the various viewpoints over what constitutes B&O's "future", either in terms of their products, their manufacturing base, their quality control or their corporate vision.
One thing is certain - B&O aren't the same company that they were even a couple of years ago. But then, I suppose they must be prepared to adapt in order to survive in this fast moving world.
Today is supposed to be "Cyber Monday", allegedly the busiest day of the year for online shopping. I don't know how the B&O dealers have faired today, or how well beoplay.com has done for sales, but I was quite stunned to see that by the time the postman came for the mail collection at 4pm, today had been my busiest day of cable sales in the whole 13 years since I stated trading!
Looking across the range of B&O products that we support (everything from the new Eclipse TV back to the Beogram turntables from the early 1960's), interest is still strong for cables to connect B&O products from each generation. Cables have gone out today for early Beovox speakers, new Beoplay headphones and almost every B&O product in between.
So I would suggest that B&O as a brand has never been stronger - let's hope that their current and future products succeed in connecting with a new generation of buyers, who in turn become B&O enthusiasts (and hopefully Beoworld members!)
Kind regards, Steve.
Steve.
www.soundsheavenly.com
Founder of Sounds Heavenly Cables and Brand Ambassador for Bang & Olufsen
Sounds Heavenly are proud to sponsor BeoWorld!
Please check out my YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/soundsheavenlycables
Meliora: You are spot on. All engineers that worked on Eclipse and BeoLab50 has left the company. They where all laid off between may and October 2017. The company has no engineering left (only the aluminium factory that rumors say is for sale). In future the functions left will be design, purchasing, sourcing and some support functions left. Rest is RIP. The future vision of B&O management is to run the business as a Beoplay business unit. That means all engineering in the future will happen at subcontractors in China and production will be handled by Chinese controlled Thyphany factory in Czech. I will not buy B&O anymore because of this decission - I don't want a LG TV with a chinese speaker box attached. I think I would be better off with a LG TV with an LG soundbar. At least you know the two parts will be compatible. I think BeoLab 90 and 50 are the last real Danish B&O icons.
You are spot on. All engineers that worked on Eclipse and BeoLab50 has left the company. They where all laid off between may and October 2017. The company has no engineering left (only the aluminium factory that rumors say is for sale). In future the functions left will be design, purchasing, sourcing and some support functions left. Rest is RIP.
The future vision of B&O management is to run the business as a Beoplay business unit. That means all engineering in the future will happen at subcontractors in China and production will be handled by Chinese controlled Thyphany factory in Czech.
I will not buy B&O anymore because of this decission - I don't want a LG TV with a chinese speaker box attached. I think I would be better off with a LG TV with an LG soundbar. At least you know the two parts will be compatible.
I think BeoLab 90 and 50 are the last real Danish B&O icons.
The above was posted in the Eclipse thread. Can anyone confirmed whether this is true?
If this is indeed the future will the products be "sourced", in which case B&O are still responsible for warranty/support etc., or "licensed" in which case total product liability is the licensee's in which case B&O are only printing their name on someone elses product for a fee.
Ban boring signatures!
Found this:
"Engineer Intern for Acoustics and Digital Signal Processing"https://candidate.hr-manager.net/ApplicationInit.aspx?cid=1462&ProjectId=143677&uiculture=en&MediaId=5
https://www.bang-olufsen.com/da/corporate/careers
I was unaware that so many people had been laid off..
Talking about myself here.. As I get older, I get more suspicious, then I start looking at the story behind the story.
Did Tue Mantoni see the certain demise of the company coming? He got paid lots and lots of cheap shares instead of cash (I was told it was his decision) - and was this because his main aim was to inflate the share price, sell them, and make a fortune? I mean, what a great signal of good intentions to want to be paid in shares. Looks good to everyone, doesn't it. It's a PR thumbs-up, and a very shrewd move from a McKinsey trained and very savvy businessman with lots of contacts.
Inflating the share price means the board and the Bang and Olufsen families either had a chance to bail out of their shares for a good price, or the company would be an attractive purchase for someone as the books looked good. Maybe the books don't look good once you turn the pages, otherwise someone would have bought B&O by now?
I'd love to know how many shares Tue has left, and how many of the family and boards shares have been sold. I think that would reveal a few things.
As I've found out - to the cost of my own B&O business, the world has changed. AV has changed. B&O isn't the all-powerful name it once was, and that once great name has been ridden like a mule up a mountain for too long now.
The Danish will always be great designers. No doubt.
But, when people demand Danish design, Made in Denmark, at China prices, it all falls apart.
Lee
jimcaj: Found this: "Engineer Intern for Acoustics and Digital Signal Processing"https://candidate.hr-manager.net/ApplicationInit.aspx?cid=1462&ProjectId=143677&uiculture=en&MediaId=5 https://www.bang-olufsen.com/da/corporate/careers
I find it great that they are hiring new people to further improve the work in the acoustic department in Struer.
Good news for us.....
....at least for those of us, who still stick to B&O ;-)
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Millemissen: jimcaj: Found this: "Engineer Intern for Acoustics and Digital Signal Processing"https://candidate.hr-manager.net/ApplicationInit.aspx?cid=1462&ProjectId=143677&uiculture=en&MediaId=5 https://www.bang-olufsen.com/da/corporate/careers I find it great that they are hiring new people to further improve the work in the acoustic department in Struer. Good news for us..... ....at least for those of us, who still stick to B&O ;-) MM
Cat discovered putting lipstick on pig.
Millemissen: I find it great that they are hiring new people to further improve the work in the acoustic department in Struer. Good news for us.....
Puncher: Millemissen: I find it great that they are hiring new people to further improve the work in the acoustic department in Struer. Good news for us..... Are we to take it that recruiting a student for one semester's unpaid work is a sign that everything is fine and dandy on the mothership?
Well there is no concrete proof that everything isn't fine and dandy on the mothership. All because someone wrote something on the internet doesn't make it true.
BenSA: Well there is no concrete proof that everything isn't fine and dandy on the mothership. All because someone wrote something on the internet doesn't make it true.
In the interest of fairness and balance, I have to agree with this. Lots of things are said and written, and just because they're said (or written) doesn't mean they're true either.
Sometimes, when I look at B&O now, I wonder if I'm seeing the birth of a star - or the death of a galaxy...
I'll be the first to fling my hands in the air and say "I have no idea" when asked.
BenSA: Puncher: Millemissen: I find it great that they are hiring new people to further improve the work in the acoustic department in Struer. Good news for us..... Are we to take it that recruiting a student for one semester's unpaid work is a sign that everything is fine and dandy on the mothership? Well there is no concrete proof that everything isn't fine and dandy on the mothership. All because someone wrote something on the internet doesn't make it true.
Which is why I asked if anyone could confirm whether it was true!
.. found this
Newspaper article from October 5, 2017: "Innovation binds B & O to the (Struer) base"
https://tinyurl.com/y7x4vhvd
(google translated)
Puncher: Which is why I asked if anyone could confirm whether it was true!
I knew what you meant, but I think it was lost in translation.
Also, there's a distinct lack of engineering roles on the B&O careers website, for a company which is focussed on engineering and product design.
Maybe B&O sees the current range as the "last for a while" so simply does not need a tonne of engineering staff? I can't imagine them replacing the BL50 and others for the foreseeable future.
But didn't someone say that B&O was removing a lot of products from the BeoPlay range, too, soon?
jimcaj: .. found this Newspaper article: "Innovation binds B & O to the (Struer) base" https://tinyurl.com/y7x4vhvd (google translated)
Newspaper article: "Innovation binds B & O to the (Struer) base"
It says "Bang & Olufsen invests a large million in a new innovation center. It will be a common workplace for 250 B & O employees....Money includes building an acoustic competence center and new test facilities."
So, this kind of concludes this thread, I guess :)
moxxey: jimcaj: .. found this Newspaper article: "Innovation binds B & O to the (Struer) base" https://tinyurl.com/y7x4vhvd (google translated) It says "Bang & Olufsen invests a large million in a new innovation center. It will be a common workplace for 250 B & O employees....Money includes building an acoustic competence center and new test facilities." So, this kind of concludes this thread, I guess :)
Yes I think thats that!
When you promise Danish design and serve up Korean and Chinese products in a thinly veiled wrapper at Danish prices (Eclipse, cough cough) it doesn't work well either.
Time will tell.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
BeoGreg: I don’t see how employing 250 in the near future is controversial to what the original poster (Meloria) said.
I don’t see how employing 250 in the near future is controversial to what the original poster (Meloria) said.
Yes, but Puncher's point (a valid point) was that no-one knows if what Meloria wrote is correct. There's no news on this, no press coverage, nothing. Normally when a company releases key staff, the information is released to shareholders amongst others - it's called transparency.
But, on the flipside, we're seeing news and information about a) new investment, b) new buildings and c) future plans.
So, believe what you want to believe, if it makes you happier.
I think the key comparison is to Apple which moved everything to Asia. It's not necessarily a bad thing, unless you're Danish I suppose and see local production as a key intangible aspect of the product. If it's well designed I don't really care where it's made as long as the quality controls are in place, the days of China only being able to manufacture cheap rubbish are long gone. Yes they specialise in cheap bad manufacturing but they also do a good line in cheap(er) high quality manufacturing.
Opening up an old Apple product is a joy, new products are unserviceable but that doesn't mean I'm ditching MacBooks any time soon, there's far more to my product choice. I will agree it is somewhat sad in a way but every industry sector is the same, you could equally complain 40 years ago about car production lines replacing humans with 'soulless' robots and demand refuse to drink from wine glasses that weren't hand blown. I prefer one over the other but as I'm not a billionaire I'd rather pay half as much if I'm pushed to choose one over the other.
moxxey: So, believe what you want to believe, if it makes you happier.
From my post on the Eclipse - copy & paste:
I can confirm the info from Meliora.
A consequence is also that the integration with the old ML is soon to be lost (the NL/ML converter is already in the history books, no replacement). The connection and interaction will be via "native" apps on your phone such as Apple Music, Deezer, Spotify etc to stream music - both locally and to multi-rooms - in the not too distant future. The good thing is that you can mix any Spotify Connect or AirPlay 2 compatible product with the B&O gear - you do not need to go all-in on B&O. But....and there is a big but.... B&O as we know it is more or less about to change drastically seen from a BeoWorlders point of view.
And as Meliora points out - the success of BeoPlay indicates that this is what the market wants.
The strategy makes sense, IMHO, for a BeoSound 2 - not so much for a BeoVision, which should be the heart and brain of my home network. But, not anymore.
Roger
I know the company from inside. You are making a few mistakes here.
The job mentioned is a unpaid student job. There is a small group which is only students on generel acoustics, not for anything that goes into products. Why B&O has this ? It cost nothing .. and the students promote papers outside that gives the brand credit. The hope on the long run is that some of the student research can be patented and go into the B&O china development.
The innovation center, that's a story of itself. It is the 250 - I would say more like 220 now - employees left , NOT NEW employees. The old R&D buildings if any of you know these are now abandoned. The remaining employees are moved to the this innovation center (you can find pictures on LinkedIn) - which in fact is just the old production factory with a new layer of paint. If you look into the new facilities (I have been there last week because it was open) is more or less just a big office. There is installed a few listening room's to compensate for the ones left behind in the old R&D.
The clever part from B&O in this, is that these old buildings which are in a bad shape, has with outside investors been promoted as "Sound Hub". The hope is that companies will come and use this "Sound Hub" and all the left behind facilities, like acoustic cube, EMC facillities etc.
So Yes, I agree. It is something like the Apple setup. The difference I think is that Apple defines also what's inside their products. This is not the case here. I was talking to one of the employees in the new setup and he said they there only allowed to pick from the modules/platforms that is ready on the shelf at the Chinese subcontractors. This means in the future there will be little or no difference to other brands, maybe except the price tag.
I really don't know if the dealers actual know that there is no more in the pipeline of the usual stuff. From now on there will probably be different products with more or less standard technology.
I'm relying on MM to put a positive spin on this for us.
Puncher: I'm relying on MM to put a positive spin on this for us.
Reference:
This was the bye bye to the TV engineers and BeoLab 90 / 50 engineers.
http://nyheder.tv2.dk/business/2017-05-09-bo-fyrer-59-medarbejdere-i-struer
Right click and use google translate to get it in English.
@Meliora - B&O put together a slide pack to the B1´s recently, I guess Lee can confirm this as he has access to the retail web, informing them about the way ahead. It is well wrapped, to cushion the slap.
The sad part is that the Avant, not the NG, is the last of the "current" BeoVision´s that works as a BeoVision IMHO. Rock solid as an MX used to be. The NG-version of the Avant struggles with SW issues still, and now there are several issues between the SoundCentre in the Eclipse and the screen - the fault free part of the Eclipse is the pure LG side of it. How to solve this and other issues with their new business model? At least Apple is able to issue an update to a product such as the iPhone X before 90% of the customers face the issue - it is the other way around with B&O these days. Just look at the new firmware for the sound products... what a mess. Will it be sorted out by 6.000 Apple SW gurus by the end of the week? Nope. Can they still charge a premium, as Apple does, with Sw issues dragging on for months?
Meliora: I really don't know if the dealers actual know that there is no more in the pipeline of the usual stuff..
I really don't know if the dealers actual know that there is no more in the pipeline of the usual stuff..
If I'd just sunk tens of thousands into a store refit, or was a current dealer seeing a decline in business, this comment would ruin my day.
As I've said before though, there are many people who know a lot more than me about business... I'm sure they have a plan.
Okay yes - I have no idea what the B1 have been presented to. Otherwise I agree with you - see it same way.
As I see it they are not even in the shape of redoing the Eclipse right now. Means end of that - and in future it will most probably be re-branded TV's, maybe with slightly improved sound.
Maybe it is just me, but I am just a bit disappointed.
Also makes me wonder how they will keep Eclipse, BeoLab 90/50 alive when all the development engineers involved has been kicked out. Maybe they will just produce them as long as possible ... Will be really interesting to follow.
I can smell smoke and I think I hear a fiddle playing way off in the distance!
Puncher: I can smell smoke and I think I hear a fiddle playing way off in the distance!
There's a fix for that!
LINK
Oh I do love the internet sometimes....
The do have a plan - but it will change the brand as we know it - and the plan may very well be the correct one. I have no idea on how to run such a company
They acknowledge the fact that Apple, Google and now also Amazon are the new platform owners. The content is owned or at least provided by Tidal, Spotify, Deezer, Apple Music a.o. And if you combine these two observations with the rise of voice control, I guess the plan from Struer starts to make sense. B&O will use these standards and work to improve them. The new AirPlay 2 B&O "platform" should be available in Q1/2018 for BeoPlay M3/M5/A6/A9mk2 and BeoSound 1/2/35/Essence/Core/Eclipse/Shape.
But the line between Bang & Olufsen products and BeoPlay is getting blurry to me...
Yes, l am sure they have a plan.
I would really really hate to see the B&O brand disappear. Question would rather be: Will there be any difference to BeoPlay in the future ? and if not, why two brands ? Why two locations ?
Would it not be natural to combine the two or cut of the dead leg when time is right ?
I simple cannot believe that this is the case and have not been reported to the shareholders. They where very clear about cutting the developer of the TV segment and how much they saved. Before I see any relabel source (no offense) I simple will not think it is true.
Beovision Harmony 77" 2nd Gen, Beolab 5, Beolab 17, Beosound 1, Beoplay M3, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay Earset, Beoliving Intelligence
Have a look at this video.
Spot on Roger.
The Beoplay brand have no value without Bang & Olufsen
The reason they can sell headphones, and get money from license is that they make 80K speakers and the best tv on the market.
@Emil: They don't do TV's anymore. I thought that was clear. They have said so to the press several times.
You could also remove the "Play" in time. Then all Play products becomes B&O.
I don't see Play's succes is relying on the sale of re-branded LG's.
The YouTube link doesn't work(?), so here's the address in full: https://youtu.be/ISpY3BNk21E
hmm, lets then say they make tv solutions.
And the reviewers agree that this tv solution is the very best you can get.
They do not provide the display, the picture chip, and 90% of the interface.
But its not a rebranded LG tv, the Eclipse have so many more features then a LG tv.
And no you cannot just remove the play. Beosound 1 and 2 you would never define as a beoplay product, and a P1 would never suit as a Bang & Olufsen.
Too separate those two brands have been the biggest exercise Tue had as CEO and he nailed it. I will bet a lot of money that they are not going to destroy that distinction on purpose.
But they cannot continue ploughing huge amounts of cash into developing hugely expensive products that not enough people want to buy in order to prop up sales of sourced headphones!
I think you underestimate the market with license and headphone.
Look at Beats audio,
Look at B&O car audio.
The math works out.