ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I'm considering buying a turntable. I'm a B&o enthousiast ( high à priori chance at this forum), so my options are to search for a good vintage B&o turntable or to just visit a quality audio shop and get a newly produced turntable from manufacturers like Clearaudio or Rega, to name just two. I do not want to spend more than about 1000 euro max. Soundquality for me is the No 1 argument, so another question is how do the old B&o turntables compare with the modern ones? Off course I prefer the looks of for example a beogram 4000, but not at the cost of a less soundquality.
In absolute sounds quality terms, I think a modern deck with decent record support(not a B&O strong point!) will outperform a Beogram. For a modern looking and sounding deck, consider the Michell gyrodec se or technodec, which is the entry model.
However a Beogram has a good sound and is the epitome of ease of use. You will lack a little bass and the very top is not as clear as the Michell will be, but it has a good dust cover and looks wonderful with or without a record!
Peter
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
It does depend on the Beogram but most beograms will be far better than almost any other turntable you can buy now. The suspended sub chassis is expensive to engineer so most will simply have rubber feet. You can get round this by wall mounting the deck of course. I have done this with my Beogram 3000 Thorens. None the less, a very good point!
http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/bang-olufsen-bo-beosystem-5000-complete-and-in-mint-condition/111904781
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
I also looked at Linn's turntable, but I think it is excessively expensive. For that money I can buy a beogram 4002 and add a renovated MMC20CL to it, and I still will save lots of money.
Interestingly, in an old Hi-Fi choice, the 4002 was £350 and the Linn Sondek, admittedly without arm, was £345!! The Sondek was down as a Best Buy and the 4002 as Worth Considering!
The linear tracking Beograms are the most sophisticated decks ever made - and easily the best sounding fully automatic decks out there. There are pros and cons of them compared to modern decks:
+ Great design.
+ Fail safe - you can't damage anything because you don't have to cue the arm up.
+ The "lightness" in sound makes you want to spend hours into the night with it because it helps against listening fatigue (my own experience)
+ The choise of cartridge determines the balance of the sound. My €99 retipped cartridge (MMC4 spec) is overall a very neutral sounding one, while the Shibata-option at €179 has a more detailed bass and high end - though the treble level is low in my opinion (would match up to the Beovox S75 speakers because of their brightness). The €159 option (MMC2 spec) is my favourite.
- Very complicated electronics and mechanics; you'll have to get your Beogram though a service to have a reliable machine
- Many people doesn't know how to correctly post them. Many are damaged beyond repair because of this.
I have two Beogram 4000's, two Beogram 8002's - and have owned a couple of 4002's, an 8000, a 5500, a 2404 and a 1902 (the latter two are from the radial tracking series); they all performs well to this day; I have sold them to family members and friends.
Vinyl records, cassettes, open reel, valve amplifiers and film photography.
The Beogram 4000 is the most beautiful, in my opinion, but it's virtually impossible to buy one. The 4002 is easier to get as they are for sale in greater numbers but I think it's not as beautiful because of the ugly dark colored 'button-panel' at the righthand side compared to the 4000. I read they sound the same nevertheless.
A non-B&O option that looks good to is the Clearaudio concept, with a hint of 'Bauhaus-modernism' to it. But B&o has a special kind of attraction...If it was only to choose something different than the so-called audiophile society would do :-)
4000s do come up quite regularly - mainly because they stop working!! they are the most complex of the series - the 4002, especially in the DC motor variety could almost be described as simple in comparison! The button panel is just brushed metal and as long as not too rubbed, is fine. I have three of this series and they are fine decks. If you ask Lee nicely, he may have one for sale!!
I'd say it will depend mainly on how far you want to go in the future and if you will or not get infected with Beo Bug
Shall you be considering creation of complete B&O system, (also how much hands on approach you want) - it'll be advisable to get B&O deck, otherwise buy deck of modern and known manufacturer providing support as Peter correctly pointed out...
I'm personally more into vintage, therefore the only "modern" B&O I'd endorse would be BG 4500 or, 8500(but that's based on what I already own and to complete the set....) while happy continue to use BC3500
good luck
bob
P.S. 1000 Euro should buy you decent deck indeed
jc: I'm considering buying a turntable. I'm a B&o enthousiast ( high à priori chance at this forum), so my options are to search for a good vintage B&o turntable or to just visit a quality audio shop and get a newly produced turntable from manufacturers like Clearaudio or Rega, to name just two. I do not want to spend more than about 1000 euro max. Soundquality for me is the No 1 argument, so another question is how do the old B&o turntables compare with the modern ones? Off course I prefer the looks of for example a beogram 4000, but not at the cost of a less soundquality.
Don't worry - be Happy
I heard Pro-Ject Audio has good record players. Nice design, too.
Ralf
Living Room: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-2 (Center), Beolab 9 (Fronts), Beolab 8000 (Rears), no Subwoofer. Screen: Sony KD-85XH9096Dining Room: Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 4000 on stands, fed by Amazon Echo Show 8Home Cinema: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-4 (Center), Beolab 1 (Fronts), Beolab 4000 (Rears). Projector: Sony VPL-HW55Home Office: Beosystem 3, Beolab 7-4, Beolab 5000, Screen: Sony KD-55XH9005 on Beovision 7-40 stand, ML to Beosound 9000 MK3 and Beosound 5/Beomaster 5 (1 TB SSD version)Bedroom: Sony KD-65XH9077, Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 6002 and Beolab 11 (all white, wall-mounted)
In storage: Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 (1960s).
Ah, the 'Beo-bug'; I,ve been infected already for a long time, and I know it's a virus that doesn't respond to antiviral drugs. In fact, that worsens the situation of the patient! In my home, the following set is installed and playing; Beocenter 9500, Beovox S45-2, Beogram CDX, Beosound 1, Beovision MX8000, Beosound 3. But I always keep an eye on the competition, as other manufacturers produce nice things as well. Like turntables. It's a pity B&O does not produce turntables anymore, vinyl is quite popular at the moment. (look at the Linn Sondek; design wise unchanged since the seventies and still popular. The beogram 4000 could be still in production as well compared to that)
Anyway, it is a difficult choice; a brand new turntable or an old one from the Danes.
Ah! Already bitten! You clearly need the 4000 - nothing else will do! A 9500 would actually be more sensible as it would be remote controlled via the 9500, but you would fret at the slightly inferior plastics used and the silliness of a non functioning detector arm! And track down a SP15 cartridge to go with it just because they are rare!
The advantage of remote in a single room system is negligible - you need to clean the record anyway so you will be up! I use a 4000 with my 5500 system because it is so much nicer than the Beogram 5500!
Forgot to mention my beogram CD7000, beomaster 7000. Although I like the sound of the 9500 more, at least through the S45-2's.
Playing vinylrecords is a hands-on experience, I know that and I like it. Get's you more in contact with the music, a sort of ritual. So no need for a remote control.
Interesting - I always preferred the 7000 amplifier to that of the 9500 as I felt it had a bit more i the way of oomph! I share your like of the S45s though. My favourite cartridge of all was the MMC6000 which did everything I liked - very clear top end and very detailed. Impossible to get one in decent condition now so I use MMC20CLs instead which are close.
I sense you've already answered yourselves and now just trying to find reason why not to - give in you're infected and get BG4000! as Pete rightly suggest (good point about the BG9500 and remote) I personally cannot imagine anyone complaining about lack of remote function on Record deck
At least you're surrounded with knowledgeable people (not like myself) here and any B&O may live long, thanks to wonderful members bending backwards to help
Bob
jc: Ah, the 'Beo-bug'; I,ve been infected already for a long time, and I know it's a virus that doesn't respond to antiviral drugs. In fact, that worsens the situation of the patient! In my home, the following set is installed and playing; Beocenter 9500, Beovox S45-2, Beogram CDX, Beosound 1, Beovision MX8000, Beosound 3. The beogram 4000 could be still in production as well compared to that) Anyway, it is a difficult choice; a brand new turntable or an old one from the Danes.
Ah, the 'Beo-bug'; I,ve been infected already for a long time, and I know it's a virus that doesn't respond to antiviral drugs. In fact, that worsens the situation of the patient! In my home, the following set is installed and playing; Beocenter 9500, Beovox S45-2, Beogram CDX, Beosound 1, Beovision MX8000, Beosound 3. The beogram 4000 could be still in production as well compared to that)
Peter:A 9500 would actually be more sensible as it would be remote controlled via the 9500, but you would fret at the slightly inferior plastics used and the silliness of a non functioning detector arm!
I would not say it's silly with the 'detector arm'. It just looks better with those two arms (Imagine it with only 1 arm)...and it shows its heritage
I must agree with the too much plastic!!! It doesn't show too much on the surface - but in the mechanism... Too many nylon gearwheels and small tabs that can break off. I have repaired a few...Incredible that so many is still working. Luckily we have sites like Beoworld, where people can get advice how to repair those wonderful turntables.
If I couldn't get a Beogram I think I would sell my entire record collection
No -maybe not... But I just think that all other turntables are so damn ugly
Robob204: ...I personally cannot imagine anyone complaining about lack of remote function on Record deck... Bob
That's a valid point (but you still have to put record on and clean it ) and good for you ;)
I record mix on reel or cassette and listen locally, but that's because my main is BC3500 (at present) and the "tribute" room dedicated to B&O not quiet ready yet....
I personally find that by far the best is to have system in each room, although keep records in bathroom proves rather tricky
beopaul: Robob204: ...I personally cannot imagine anyone complaining about lack of remote function on Record deck... Bob Well, my stereo is in the basement, yet I do most of my listening upstairs where my good speakers are. Until I got a Beogram 5000 deck I hardly touched my records. Now I'm whining that I can't skip around so I'm getting a BG9500 tangential.
...I personally cannot imagine anyone complaining about lack of remote function on Record deck...
Well, my stereo is in the basement, yet I do most of my listening upstairs where my good speakers are. Until I got a Beogram 5000 deck I hardly touched my records. Now I'm whining that I can't skip around so I'm getting a BG9500 tangential.
Steffen: If I couldn't get a Beogram I think I would sell my entire record collection No -maybe not... But I just think that all other turntables are so damn ugly
There are some nice ones non B&O's but they wouldn't live happily side by side
I'm personally happy with those I have
Hi,
Your quest has already started and you haven't yet realized - a Beogram 4000 and nothing else!
Jacques
Bob: I personally find that by far the best is to have system in each room, although keep records in bathroom proves rather tricky
valve1: Bob: I personally find that by far the best is to have system in each room, although keep records in bathroom proves rather tricky You have the full blown bug ! :-)
Well I have several systems too but the other half won't let me put them all around the house!
I very much like the beogram 4000, as a piece of essential industral design and as a turntable (however I never listened to it), but it's about 40 years old. Lots of internal components will be longing for their retirement. That's why a new turntable also is attractive. As an classic-car owner, I know the habit of multiple parts to fail simultaneously at old age, it's just like a human :-)
"I also looked at Linn's turntable, but I think it is excessively expensive. For that money I can buy a beogram 4002 and add a renovated MMC20CL to it, and I still will save lots of money".
JC,
Interesting comparison, but as Peter's post on a comparison undertaken bya Brtish HiFi publication years ago points out, the Linn Sonndek of the late 1970s and the Beogram 4002 were not a million miles away in terms of price. I suspect if B&O were still in the business of making turntables the price discrepancy between the current Linn and a B&O deck would not be that great, with the B&O probably the more expensive.
Back in the late seventies, I bought a used BG 4000 with the well-regarded (even by the Hi Fi press!) SP15 cartridge. This was a wonderful turntable which I had fully serviced by my local B&O dealer. This was, of course, back in the days when such establishments employed engineers to actually repair things at a component level. It worked faultlessly and involved nothing more complicated that putting on a record and pressing 'play'. Unfortunately, being young and stupid, I then got the Hifi upgrading illness. About that time, Ariston and Linn had started to make turntables and eventually I bought a Sonndek after extensive home listening to one with an SME arm and an SP15 cartridge - in direct comparison to my Beogram. I sold the BG4000. Whilst there was no question in my mind that the Sonndek was a 'better' turntable, and in its own way was an excellent piece of industrial design, particularly if you subscribe to the 'form follows function' school of design, I lived to regret the decision.
The Sonndek needed to be set up extremely carefully and whilst offering the same type of isolation from its surroundings as the Beogram, it did seem more prone to reacting to external vibrations. Whilst there is pleasure to be gained from using a well designed damped lift lower device when cuing the arm, there is always the danger of missing the edge of the record or dropping the pick-up, particularly after a glass (or three) of wine. And I was always worrying if the whole thing was working to its optimum.
With the Beogram, it just played faultlessly, perhaps without the ultimate ability to extract all the information from the groove, but reliably and consistenly, allowing you to listen to the music not the hifi. And it still is the most beautiful turntable ever made
If I had 1000 Euros I would go for the 4000 and use any money left from the budget to ensure it is working as well as possible. And like all of the best B&O kit, it will make you smile every time you use it.
Cleve
Thanks for all the answers. It's these sort of discussions that make Beoworld such an wealth of information on B&O related subjects. Very good and very informative.
I agree completely with Cleve. If I was in the market for one of these decks, I would commission one of the best suppliers to find me one and make sure it was serviced. Frede at Classic Audio springs to mind as does Martin Olsen, Dillen on site. For the budget you have, I would expect you could get a mint 4000 with reconditioned cartridge which would fulfill all you would want from one of these decks. I would always suggest picking up these decks personally rather than relying on couriers and this would be the opportunity of meeting either Frede or Martin, which would be more than worth the expense.
These decks are old but the materials used are first quality and they are made in such a way that they can be serviced completely.
Some more searching/reading learns me that by some the Beogram 3000-Thorens is considered the best beogram, sound wise. Not as a remarkable design to look at, as the 4000 was in it's days of course.
I found a Thorens-website, but that is not representing the original (swiss) factory any more as I also came to know.
Whats the opinion on the bg4000's vs the bg3000 Thorens ? Both are much acclaimed on Beoworld,
Got both - the 3000 with the 12" arm as well! The 3000 is a Thorens TD124 MkII. The bass is markedly more extended and it is a lovely sounding deck.It takes the oldest of the SP cartridges - the 9" arms use the SP8. I have a bespoke SP2 in mine made by Axel.
However no worthwhile suspension means I have it wall mounted on a special bracket. The 4000 is much prettier and easier to use. Again excellent sound. I wouldn't really count the 3000 as a Beogram as the B&O content is limited to the arm and the badge! Also these are very scarce and very expensive. They are 45 years old and need servicing - for which Frede is your man. The 4000 is the one to have though!
I noticed reading the specifications at this site ('products') that the later beograms like the 8500/9500 had lower 'rumble' than the earlier (e.g. 4000) ones. Perhaps because of the 'plastic' construction? :-)
As with most technical figures, one has to take most of these with a large pinch of salt! Rumble on all the Beograms seems to be low. To be fair, beogras do have a lot of family similarities in sound and you should not be disappointed with any of them. The 1500 and 1700 are very good and ridiculously cheap now!
...... guilty as charged
b
chartz: valve1: Bob: I personally find that by far the best is to have system in each room, although keep records in bathroom proves rather tricky You have the full blown bug ! :-) Well I have several systems too but the other half won't let me put them all around the house!
Peter: 1500 and 1700 are very good and ridiculously cheap now! Peter
Wanted to make a comment about shipping. The Beogram 4002 disassembles for shipping quite easily. Platter, subplatter, two pieces of the top aluminum, and the dust cover can all be removed (and reassembled) in just a few seconds. Remove the cartridge, fasten the tonearm, wrap everything in bubble wrap separately, tighten the shipping screws, and you're good to go.
I've shipped my Beogram 4002 a few times without incident.
While I totally agree picking up the unit in person is the best option, it isn't necessarily the only option. Especially if you're buying from someone who knows what he (or she) owns - another Beoworlder for example.
As Peter remarked a couple of time in other threads, the BG 5000 is one of the best Beograms, simple sturdy mechanics, and good sound. With a new or refurbished pickup it will last for years. More members recommend the, also, radial tracking 1500 and 1700. I need one more Beogram, but after good advise from members I will stay with radials, the tangentials are nice to look at, top design and I was attempted to buy one just for the design.
The experts advise is, for sound, go radial
I have my BG 2404 in sight as writing this, can it be more beautiful, oh yes my BG 1202,( waiting for the SP14 from Axel), together with my BM 901.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Then why did B&o continue the tangentials up to the last beogram (9500) if the radials are better sound wise?
And why can't I find any serious quality tangential pickup these days (new), looking at todays manufacturers? The tangential design seemed to be a good idea?
The tangential is a good idea but it addresses a problem which most people will not notice! B&O adopted a very good system for the 4000 and this was used all the way through the generations of tangential decks. It was made cheaper and cheaper though so the last decks used a cord drive rather than the screw drive of the 4000.
Why are there very few tangential decks? Well they are expensive to make for starters! Look at the average deck you can buy today and note all that is missing from a Beogram:
1. No sub-chassis - expensive to make , especially if you want to make it well.
2. Mainly completely manual - cheaper again - one also has to isolate the arm from the mechanics of arm lifting - more expense if done properly.
3. Radial arms - cheaper than a good tangential though more difficult to make stiff.
B&O made tangentials because they also have a huge advantage if remotely controlled - the later decks allowed you to skip tracks remotely!