ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I know this has been up before - e.g. here:
https://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/10944.aspx?PageIndex=1
But that was almost 4 years ago.
Any current knowledge on SACD playback on the BV’s?
The question: is playback of (multi channel) SACD on a BeoVision/HDMI possible from any of the current Bluray players, that you know of....when you count out the OPPO’s?
I did not have any luck with my recent experiment (the Pioneer BDP-180)!
The Oppo (203) seems overkill to me with its analog section/outputs, the double HDMI-outs and the HDMI-in.
For a BeoVision all you really need is one HDMI output!
And by the way - owners of an OPPO 203 - does this show album covers (and metadaa from Gracenote) when playing CD’s....like the 103 does?
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Actually, the HDMI in, combined with the decoded analog out,- and trigger,
should make the 203 a perfect companion for the Beolab range and a C7
@ £649 its a winner!
Should that be an answer to my posting, or....?
MM,
I’m considering the Sony UHP-H1; it’s around £300 and allows for SACD/DVD Audio playback via HDMI, which seems to fit your brief pretty well.
https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/blu-ray-disc-players/uhp-h1#reviews_awards_v2_default
:)
mrCTE: MM, I’m considering the Sony UHP-H1; it’s around £300 and allows for SACD/DVD Audio playback via HDMI, which seems to fit your brief pretty well. https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/blu-ray-disc-players/uhp-h1#reviews_awards_v2_default :)
Sorry, but I am askng for actual user experience with a specific player = does it work with a BV or not?
To be more technical:
In my first post I linked to that old thread.
I seems that it depends on how the conversion (from the SACD format to PCM) is done internally in the player
The BV’s don’t handle output in 88.2/176.4, which most bluray player seem to use for the output.
(The funny thing is that they can handle it, when played back using the DLNA player).
Please read the posts from Geoff Martin there!
I don’t suppose, that there will be any changes to e.g. an Avant in this matter.
Therefore I need a player, that works with 96 (or 196) kHz as output - this seems to go well with the BV’s.
The OPPO would do the job, I know - but are there other current bluray player that can....that is my question!
Mr MM,
I understand.
I've checked with the user manual on the Sony before, and it seems to convert the DSD to PCM at playable output via HDMI on my Beosystem 4 driven set. I suppose the proof in the pudding will be in the eating - I'll let you know how it goes.
Manual here:
http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/4588106111.pdf pp. 29
It will be much appreciated, if you would do the test/the eating of the pudding, so to say.
If you already have/have bought that player, it will just be a matter of having a SACD and of making the right settings in the Sony menu.
As stated, I had no luck with a brandnew Pioneer nor with my (now) aged Panasonic DVD/SACD player.
(Mostly you can not find any hints to the output format in manuals).
Mr. MM, The depth of your story finally hit me in the head. My first SACD player was a Sony from 2002 so the output was only multiple-channel analogue. It played into a system with discrete multiple-channel analogue inputs and speaker-level outputs. That were the original standard, is it true that the old system captured DSD at it's most purest capability and outputting to HDMI could never be so good? When I had a Beovision 11 (sadly and completely destroyed in a move) and a Oppo 103 player, was the ceiling automatically clipped by the HDMI standards? It sounded delicious probably because only a dog could hear the top :-)
Thanks Carolpa,
Nothing against the OPPO, not at all.
However, I find it overkill to pay for a lot of features, that you don’t need, when it will be connected to a BV (via HDMI).
If I don’t find another one, which will work with the BV’s, I surely will get the OPPO.
You also have the 203 - does that play the SACD’s just like the 103 does/did?
The 103 will be hard to find these day - and it mostly cost more than the new one.
Maybe you could also answer my additional question from my first post =
does the 203 (using Gracenote) support metadata and coverpics, when playing CD’s?
Carolpa:The first really good working sacd and b&o combo was with the oppo 103. The problem with other players I tried was the conversion dsf/dff to pcm. This combination works flawlessly Now I use mainly the 203 together with the eclipse. The 103 I use mainly to rip sacd to dsf files.
Barry Santini:Dss/dff??
Millemissen:Thanks Carolpa, Nothing against the OPPO, not at all. However, I find it overkill to pay for a lot of features, that you don’t need, when it will be connected to a BV (via HDMI). If I don’t find another one, which will work with the BV’s, I surely will get the OPPO. You also have the 203 - does that play the SACD’s just like the 103 does/did? The 103 will be hard to find these day - and it mostly cost more than the new one. Maybe you could also answer my additional question from my first post = does the 203 (using Gracenote) support metadata and coverpics, when playing CD’s? MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Millemissen: I know this has been up before - e.g. here: https://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/10944.aspx?PageIndex=1 But that was almost 4 years ago. Any current knowledge on SACD playback on the BV’s? The question: is playback of (multi channel) SACD on a BeoVision/HDMI possible from any of the current Bluray players, that you know of....when you count out the OPPO’s? I did not have any luck with my recent experiment (the Pioneer BDP-180)! The Oppo (203) seems overkill to me with its analog section/outputs, the double HDMI-outs and the HDMI-in. For a BeoVision all you really need is one HDMI output! And by the way - owners of an OPPO 203 - does this show album covers (and metadaa from Gracenote) when playing CD’s....like the 103 does? MM
This is a serendipitous post that resonates with me nicely at this time, as my current Sony Blurayer is having issues reading dual layer BD disks, either refusing to play, or with dropouts and freezes during playback, and also similar issues with dual layer DVD's. I fear it's lifespan is up and it's time for a new one.
To the best of my knowledge, the inability of the HDMI inputs on the Beovision system 4, - which affects my V1-40 and the Beovision 11's, plus whatever other model B&O TV's, - remains, as regards NOT accepting a 88.2 or 176.4khz LPCM signal of a SACD disk internally converted in the player from DSD to PCM and output at those frequencies.
From anecdotal comment, it would appear that from previous generations of the Oppo players, that they will down convert to 44.1 or 48khz, if the HDMI receiver (in this case the B&O TV HDMI input) cannot accept 88.2.
I have made enquiries with three companies whose products interest me re the latest generation; Oppo, Cambridge Audio and Sony.
Oppp's customer service stated that as regards the current 203/205 model, that the player would handshake with the B&O via HDMI, and if the B&O would not accept 88.2 LPCM, then the player would downsample the PCM signal to 48khz.
Cambridge Audio, re the new CXUHD took a few days to answer after consulting their engineering team, and stated that their player would UPSAMPLE an outgoing 88.2 kHz LPCM signal via HDMI, where the receiver (again the BV TV's HDMI input) would not accept 88.2, - to 96khz.
I simply do not know how this achieved technically, given that both the Oppo 203/205 and the Cambridge CXUHD use the same Taiwanese Mediatek Soc motherboard, so can only accept what the companies claim, given that I have no means of verifying by testing it out.
And lastly, the Sony X800 Bluray player - it lacks Dolby vision compared to the Oppo/Cambridge audio, and local support was unable to answer the question, which ended up going all the way back to Japan.
The answer was that the player would handshake over HDMI with the HDMI input of the receiver (again the BV HDMI's input) and Downsample from 88.2 to 48khz to suit the receiver.
So, theoretically all three players should work re SACD playback, with the player set to convert internally the DSD audio to be output as LPCM via HDMI, and if at 88.2, that the player will either down or upsample the frequency of the output to suit the receivers HDMI input - again the B&O TV HDMI input.
As I am unable to test this out, I wonder if anyone on the forum reading this, who might own one of these players, and hopefully connected via HDMI to a B&O TV that uses Beosystem 4, could comment as to whether one can actually playback SACD's successfully in this manner.
Many thanks :-)
John..
John:This is a serendipitous post that resonates with me nicely at this time, as my current Sony Blurayer is having issues reading dual layer BD disks, either refusing to play, or with dropouts and freezes during playback, and also similar issues with dual layer DVD's. I fear it's lifespan is up and it's time for a new one. To the best of my knowledge, the inability of the HDMI inputs on the Beovision system 4, - which affects my V1-40 and the Beovision 11's, plus whatever other model B&O TV's, - remains, as regards NOT accepting a 88.2 or 176.4khz LPCM signal of a SACD disk internally converted in the player from DSD to PCM and output at those frequencies. From anecdotal comment, it would appear that from previous generations of the Oppo players, that they will down convert to 44.1 or 48khz, if the HDMI receiver (in this case the B&O TV HDMI input) cannot accept 88.2. I have made enquiries with three companies whose products interest me re the latest generation; Oppo, Cambridge Audio and Sony. Oppp's customer service stated that as regards the current 203/205 model, that the player would handshake with the B&O via HDMI, and if the B&O would not accept 88.2 LPCM, then the player would downsample the PCM signal to 48khz. Cambridge Audio, re the new CXUHD took a few days to answer after consulting their engineering team, and stated that their player would UPSAMPLE an outgoing 88.2 kHz LPCM signal via HDMI, where the receiver (again the BV TV's HDMI input) would not accept 88.2, - to 96khz. I simply do not know how this achieved technically, given that both the Oppo 203/205 and the Cambridge CXUHD use the same Taiwanese Mediatek Soc motherboard, so can only accept what the companies claim, given that I have no means of verifying by testing it out. And lastly, the Sony X800 Bluray player - it lacks Dolby vision compared to the Oppo/Cambridge audio, and local support was unable to answer the question, which ended up going all the way back to Japan. The answer was that the player would handshake over HDMI with the HDMI input of the receiver (again the BV HDMI's input) and Downsample from 88.2 to 48khz to suit the receiver. So, theoretically all three players should work re SACD playback, with the player set to convert internally the DSD audio to be output as LPCM via HDMI, and if at 88.2, that the player will either down or upsample the frequency of the output to suit the receivers HDMI input - again the B&O TV HDMI input. As I am unable to test this out, I wonder if anyone on the forum reading this, who might own one of these players, and hopefully connected via HDMI to a B&O TV that uses Beosystem 4, could comment as to whether one can actually playback SACD's successfully in this manner. Many thanks :-) John..
@poodleboy makes an interesting observation. SACD was originally designed as only an analog output format, in fact since it came into being at the height of the initial file sharing/copyright wars over music, it was designed to not be digitally transferred. Part of Sony's pitch of it to music companies was that there would never ever be a computer optical drive that would read it.
Makes me wonder if the fact that to go over HDMI it has to be decimated down to 48khz or upconverted to 96khz has more to do with licensing and restrictions on bit for bit copying that are still in effect. At any rate, I find it hard to believe such manipulation will be audible unless it's done very poorly.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff:@poodleboy makes an interesting observation. SACD was originally designed as only an analog output format, in fact since it came into being at the height of the initial file sharing/copyright wars over music, it was designed to not be digitally transferred. Part of Sony's pitch of it to music companies was that there would never ever be a computer optical drive that would read it. Makes me wonder if the fact that to go over HDMI it has to be decimated down to 48khz or upconverted to 96khz has more to do with licensing and restrictions on bit for bit copying that are still in effect. At any rate, I find it hard to believe such manipulation will be audible unless it's done very poorly. Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
DSD was originally supposed to be an archiving format (for the record companies) in order to have a digital copy of older analog recordings to store (to avoid the flaws of analog to analog copying).
A bit later somebody became the idea, that it could be used for stereo and multichannel audio on a disc (the SACD). It was at that time a competitor to the DVD-Audio format, which also stored audio (2 and multi channed) on a disc, the DVD-A.
The SACD had the advantage, that it could not be copied over a the SPDIF connection - and therefore had to be converted to analog in the player (and output over analog connections).
Only as the HDMI connections became common, it became possible to output it as a digital signal - either as a bitstream or as an already converted PCM stream.
Some receivers (not many nowadays) can convert the DSD format, when getting it as a bitstream.
Most receivers will have to rely on an already (in the player) converted PCM stream.
Depending on how the player handles the DSD to PCM convertion and how the receiver/audioprocessor works internally (sound processing is always done in the PCM domain), we will get sound.........or even not.
The problem of a BV owner is to get hold on a player, that has a PCM output (over HDMI), that the audio processor in a BV can handle.
This has nothing to do with licensing - simply a matter of how the audio processor in a BV (or in a receiver) is built.
IMO Jeff is right — you surely can measure the difference in a conversion/upscaling DSD to PCM 48.....96 etc kHz.
But can you actually hear it, is the big question? (I’d say NO!)
My personal interest in the SACD as a format/a medium is, that it - in most cases - ofters good/excellent mastered source material (the music) and that we often/mostly also are offered a multichannel version of the recordings.
I’d personally prefer PCM as a format (and the DVD-A and nowadays the BluRay/Pure Audio Disc as the physical medium).
The record companies however, thought that they were better off with the SACD (at least untill it became possible to copy these). The result is, that there are way more SACD’s than DVD-A/BR Pure Audio discs on the market.
I don't know how you can just say it's not a matter of licensing, just a hardware/firmware issue with a B&O product. It's entirely possible companies stay away from native bit rate decoding because they are afraid of legal issues.
Nevertheless, SACD is a perfect example of a format that had no reason for existence other than an attempt to shore up profits. Philips and Sony were facing the end of their licensing fees from CDs, and pushing a new format that not only would keep Sony making money from licensing, as well as satisfying the music companies desires for restricted copying ability, was the entire reason for SACD to exist. Dress it up with some nonsense claims of increased fidelity, despite having to filter out their claimed 100khz freq response with filters on the outputs at about 30khz because the only thing up there was noise from the recording processes that could and did cause instability and damage to some electronics downstream in the playback, and you have something to sell to a gullible public, same as Hi Def audio today.
The problem was of course that most people didn't want to upgrade their gear and buy all new recordings, and especially the studios didn't want to buy all new recording gear. They tried multi-channel as an afterthought, as did DVD-A, but found out that no one wanted multichannel music. Which is too bad, that's the only thing that has bounce in and out of the audio world over the years that offered a chance to truly improve the listening experience over CD. I've been fortunate enough to hear some good DVD-As played on a well setup multi-channel rig, and it can be very impressive. Same for some of Yamaha's acoustic venue simulation setups. Another thing that didn't sell well.
That being said, the SACD recordings I have heard sound very good, they should, they were remastered with great care and the ones I've seen compared are definitely NOT the same as what was on the CD layer.
So, then, Sony was involved in yet another stillborn format, complete with a format war with DVD-A. Elcassette, Beta, MD (outside Asia), SACD, they have a long history, but at least they have tried new things, which I give them credit for. Elcassette was particularly good, if unpopular. We sold them, or rather we had them in the store, and tried to sell them, never moved a one, but damn, they did sound awfully good.
Jeff: I don't know how you can just say it's not a matter of licensing, just a hardware/firmware issue with a B&O product. It's entirely possible companies stay away from native bit rate decoding because they are afraid of legal issues.
The BeoSystem does not become any ‘native bits’ from a SACD capable player.
It becomes the already decoded PCM stream.
The systems/receivers that can handle a bitstream from the player surely will have to pay for licenses - how much I don’t know.
As for the rest of your post I basicly agree.
SACD was a format that - for a costumer - had no real reason for existence.
However, there are a lot of good recordings on SACD out there, that we can enjoy.......now they are there.
At least those of us, who enjoy multichannel music ;-)
I am pretty sure that as long as the content originates from a licenced product (player) you can do whatever you want.
An analogy would be the HD audio formats,- decoding requires a licence, simply de muxing a PCM stream does not.
i agree with all the comments about SACD.
As to its sound v's CD though, I have a small collection of Hybrid SACD's that I originally played through my Sony DVP NS9100ES SACD player via iLink (Firewire 400) to my Sony TADA 9000ES S Master pro digital amp, - which was really a rebadged Tact Millennium in it's modus operandi, - and to my Naim SBL speakers at the time.
Because the amp was 'pure digital' i.e. the output sine wave to switch the output transistors was generated from a DSD bitstream, not an analogue sine wave, the signal path was essentialy DSD from the disc to the amplifiers loudspeaker outputs.
The amp was and is perhaps the highest resolution and least coloured stand alone amplifier I've ever heard, McIntosh, Krell, Linn, Naim, Audio research etc not withstanding. Atypical audiophools will bag Sony ES, but when they put their minds to it, Sony, especially as regards their price no object, home market only exotica, can and do produce some truly fabulously built and engineered pieces of kit.
Two channel SACD always sounded just that bit smoother and with fractionally higher resolution than the equivalent CD layer, as regards naturalness and detail of instrumental and vocal timbre on acoustic instruments.
SACD recordings which had been mastered in DSD, generally sounded fractionally better than those who had been mastered in PCM, and then converted to DSD.
But the real deal of SACD in my experience, is M/C discrete, high resolution sound - for classical music little that can be found on regular CD comes close as regards a sense of 'being there' realism.
It's a great pity the format never succeeded, but I treasure the discs I own and the M/C sound on classical music that they offer, and very much want to be able to access them on my B&O system.
Cheers
mrCTE: Mr MM, I understand. I've checked with the user manual on the Sony before, and it seems to convert the DSD to PCM at playable output via HDMI on my Beosystem 4 driven set. I suppose the proof in the pudding will be in the eating - I'll let you know how it goes. Manual here: http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/4588106111.pdf pp. 29
I could not wait for that answer...
....and did have to eat the pudding myself.
I ordered a Sony UHP-H1.
Nice player, build quality and look was promising, there is even a dedicated PUC for that.
But.....the pudding was ‘rotten’ - no way to get sound from a multichannel SACD played there.
So - the player goes back and the search goes on.
Probably ending with the OPPO 203.....if I only knew that it does the job with the SACD’s just like the 103 does.
Maybe I should go all in and get the bo version of it - the one without the OPPO logo and pause screen ;-)))
Millemissen: mrCTE: Mr MM, I understand. I've checked with the user manual on the Sony before, and it seems to convert the DSD to PCM at playable output via HDMI on my Beosystem 4 driven set. I suppose the proof in the pudding will be in the eating - I'll let you know how it goes. Manual here: http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/4588106111.pdf pp. 29 I could not wait for that answer... ....and did have to eat the pudding myself. I ordered a Sony UHP-H1. Nice player, build quality and look was promising, there is even a dedicated PUC for that. But.....the pudding was ‘rotten’ - no way to get sound from a multichannel SACD played there. So - the player goes back and the search goes on. Probably ending with the OPPO 203.....if I only knew that it does the job with the SACD’s just like the 103 does. Maybe I should go all in and get the bo version of it - the one without the OPPO logo and pause screen ;-))) MM
Sorry to hear you had no success with the new Sony player. Must be very disappointing indeed.
As well as the Oppo 203/205 family, there is also the Cambridge Audio CXUHD - which is actually made in the same Chinese factory as the Oppos.
There's a lot of debate elsewhere that the Cambridge is just a straight out clone of the Oppo 203, but I am lead to believe that is not quite the case, (at least according to Cambridges Global Sales Manager who I personally met and spoke to about the players at a recent HiFi show here) and there are subtle differences between them - as far as I can tell, the only advantage the 203 has over the Cambridge, is that it has analogue audio outs if one needs them, and an IP control app so you can control it over a LAN with an app on an iPad/iPhone.
I know that my local dealer can supply Oppo, but not Cambridge; I had no idea that there is an B&O 'version' of it?
John: I had no idea that there is an B&O 'version' of it? Cheers John..
This was the case by the 103.
Admittedly, I am not quite aware, if there is a 203 bo version too.
Nowadays the dealers don’t seem to be very interested in playback of physical discs.
Millemissen:I could not wait for that answer... ....and did have to eat the pudding myself. I ordered a Sony UHP-H1. Nice player, build quality and look was promising, there is even a dedicated PUC for that. But.....the pudding was ‘rotten’ - no way to get sound from a multichannel SACD played there. So - the player goes back and the search goes on. Probably ending with the OPPO 203.....if I only knew that it does the job with the SACD’s just like the 103 does. Maybe I should go all in and get the bo version of it - the one without the OPPO logo and pause screen ;-))) MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Carolpa:MM the Oppo 203 as the 103 will play sacd on your BV
Thanks!
It seems that the mulltichannel layer of the SACD is the problem for (almost all of) the players.
None of them have problems with the 2 channel layer (and of course not with the regular cd layer).
I’ll have to bite the bullet, then - the OPPO’s are very expensive in the EU.
A lot of money spend on things, that I don’t really need.....for the sake of playing a couple of SACD’s once in a while ;-()
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