ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I am interested in the Beolab 90 speaker system, would have to sell off my current audiophile set up and buy the 2 speakers plus keep my current digital source.
Question - are there any owners here who can share their experience with the 90?
Can you bypass the DAC internal to the 90 and use a more resolving DAC or digital source? Meaning, can the 90 play an analog signal (perhaps coming from an analog out of a SACD player or a phonopreamp)?
How good are they as stereo speakers?
Thx,
JV
Hi Joey, I don't have a pair of BL90 and still didn't have the chance to listen to them, but I was wondering which external DAC would you use?
In the past I had the same doubts with BL5 and and found out that it's internal DAC, even though being and old project, is just perfect to my ears...
Based on that, I supose the newer DAC of the BL90 should be even better...
Makes any sense?
I have written several posts and a review on this site. IIRC, the signal from the source(s) is received first by a DSP. Adjusted signals are then distributed according to the beam width, beam direction and ARC correction profiles and then converted via one of 18 on-board DACs before D-class amplification at each driver. (could be seriously wrong on this...kinda forgot the detail).
So to answer your question - I think no you cannot.
I would also add why you would think the DACs on the BL90 would be in some way less resolving? They may/may not be - i dont know and cant compare but I would comment that the BL90 has been developed as a "package". i.e. the "package" is probably way better than the sum of individual components.
The Beolab 90 can accept a wide range of both digital and analogue signals;
Bang & Olufsen Proprietary
Digital inputs
Analogue inputs
Wireless inputs
I would imagine you will need an RIAA Amp to raise your turn-table to line-level and then feed that level into the Analogue connects. If you reference the B&O web-site, you will find the BL90 White Paper gives a lot of insight into the capabilities.
I would advise if you do buy....buy the microphone (Welcome kit) for ARC calibration and a cheap microphone stand.
In the next week or so I'll probably be writing about jumping off the B&O ecosystem when I add a Melco N1ZH/2 Digital Media Server and possibly testing/buying a SOtM SMS-200 Ultra streaming bridge on top of the Melco. B&O's source offerings are in my opinion seriously lacking compared to the BL90 and one has been forced to dabble in a little bit of audiophoolery to do the decent thing with the BL90s.
I think the price/performance is worth the price of admission.
10
Hello!
My digital source is an Emm Lab TSDx transport and an Emm Lab Dac2x digital to analog converter.
Retail is $30,000 so it should be appropriate for this level speaker.
I don't own any, my friend does and they have been great so far and honestly never heard anything bad about them.
Yes you can feed them an/several analog signal(s)
Power Link
RCA
XLR (fully balanced)
Ridiculously good, truly like nothing else! These are forever speaker!
michael
New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0
Mikipedia on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia
Mikipedi4 on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mikipedi4
Mikipedia on Intagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikipedi4/
Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Hey 10
I see that there are 2 analog inputs - an xlr and an unbalanced input.
If I use my digital source, can the 90 still apply its DSP algorithm?
This may be of use:-
https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/bo-tech/
joey_v: I see that there are 2 analog inputs - an xlr and an unbalanced input. If I use my digital source, can the 90 still apply its DSP algorithm?
Joey,
I have only spent time in the B&O ecosystem - Powerlink and Digital Power Link via B&Os propriety cabling. The white paper will give you some ideas on these connects.
Without wishing to be disparaging in any way, I will call you a "traditional audiophile" i.e. one with fine expensive music reproduction equipment (all separates) who loves music. The typical "B&O" enthusiast is diametrically opposite to this traditional view-point insofar as we/they love music but want a simple non-tweak box, with killer looks and user interface. Once you align that, you will either accept or reject the fact that B&O tends to make one-box solutions (including the two-box BL90 and BL50) primarily designed for the B&O ecosystem.
The BL90 is probably the most flexible B&O system that can work with non-B&O gear.
Thus, what you plug-in to the BL90s will happen in a standard way as indicated before. i.e DSP>>DAC>>AMP>>Driver. Regardless.
The raison d'etra of the BL90 is that the DSP does some way-out-there calculations to mould the sound as optimally as it can to an area around a listener(s). This is one of the reasons they sound so good (in my opinion). It is not simply an amplified loudspeaker a la Meridian.
So yes, the BL90 will directly accept a number of digital signals directly from a source and do its own "black-box" tricks.
As indicated previously, I too am moving from sole B&O ecosystem to a half-way house on some decent 3rd party gear. I'll have more info once up and running in the next 5 to 10 days.
Another note. You may need a Beolink IR and an Essence remote to control the volume on the BL90. Small outlay (get the Dealer to give you one if buying new). Normally, a B&O source or TV would do the business on volume control. The BL90 App and B&O App will also allow IP volume control IF you connect the BL90s to a connected network.
Do you like the 90? Are you moving from it?
The Beolab 90s are a brilliant product. After years of dreaming about them, I finally managed to acquire a pair. Aside from their striking design - they let you straddle the two worlds of audiophile music as well as no fuss home theatre.
You do, however, need a good source. I have a Vivaldi DCS as the DAC, connected to the XLR inputs and driven by a Roon Nucleus music server, which is connected to my DAC via ethernet. I'm planning on adding a Linn LP12 to the RCA input. One of the key considerations for choosing your DAC is power insulation. Initially I used an Auralic Aries Mini (which I had used successfully to drive a pair of Beolab 17s). With the 90s, the sensitivity of the speakers made noise from the electricity source a real issue.
If you can get a great DAC, and pump some high quality DSD files through it, and have the speakers well calibrated - you will be amazed at just how good the 90s can sound. Unfortunately, most B&O showrooms don't demonstrate them properly. They will play you a compressed streaming file through a TV, or just Star Wars at full volume - and it completely misses the subtlety of these amazing speakers.
joey_v: Do you like the 90? Are you moving from it?
No they are “keepers” until the next B&O flagship arrives.....one day.
I am planning - as per the post below to upgrade the Source side with a Melco N1ZH/2 and possibly the SOtM SMS200 Ultra as a bridge.
Interesting info here thx.
mikewalsh: You do, however, need a good source. I have a Vivaldi DCS as the DAC, connected to the XLR inputs and driven by a Roon Nucleus music server,
You do, however, need a good source. I have a Vivaldi DCS as the DAC, connected to the XLR inputs and driven by a Roon Nucleus music server,
Dont quite understand why you would use another DAC because the BL90 will ADC/DAC regardless?
mikewalsh: One of the key considerations for choosing your DAC is power insulation. Initially I used an Auralic Aries Mini....With the 90s, the sensitivity of the speakers made noise
One of the key considerations for choosing your DAC is power insulation. Initially I used an Auralic Aries Mini....With the 90s, the sensitivity of the speakers made noise
Interesting because I planned a bit noise control into my pending new setup. The BL90s have their own power filtering and it is specifically recommended not to place power filters on to the main supply. However, I have suspected that the BL90s need a clean low noise signal from a good source.
mikewalsh: If you can get a great DAC, and pump some high quality DSD files through it, and have the speakers well calibrated - you will be amazed at just how good the 90s can sound. Unfortunately, most B&O showrooms don't demonstrate them properly. They will play you a compressed streaming file through a TV, or just Star Wars at full volume - and it completely misses the subtlety of these amazing speakers.
The BL90s can only receive 24bit/192k.....so anything above that.....then a pre-BL90 DAC will be needed to drop down to PCM quality?
You are running high resolution music files into a DAC (e.g DSD), which then connects to BL90 via the analog XLR or RCA connections - so there is no restriction of how high res your source file is. But if really want top performance, you do need to make sure you have a very good DAC with no noise interference, otherwise, you would be better off just feeding a digital input into the BL90s and using its own DAC.
Impressive upstreams.
My Emm will be a couple notches below your Vivaldi but I know the Emm DA2 (one above mine) compares very favorably against the Vivaldi.
My friend has the full 4 box Vivaldi stack and at 110,000$ for the upstreams, it sounds fantastic. Not much can beat that stack other than an MSB.
I am glad to hear you have successfully mated the 90 with a true source.
as I say, the speaker is only as good as the data it is Fed.
its too bad I would lose my top of the line Audioquest WEL signature speaker wires....
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
Price is a funny thing,
The price for BEOLAB 90 is actually cheap when we talk high end.
Many other systems are much more expensive then the BEOLAB 90 with amp and cables.
For me I can understand people and for my self a set of Beolab 90 could be possible, also a used market is beginning.
5% of what? your income, or your assets, because if it is your income, then it would be quit easy if you just have lived long enough.
Beovision Harmony 77" 2nd Gen, Beolab 5, Beolab 17, Beosound 1, Beoplay M3, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay Earset, Beoliving Intelligence
I have BeoLab 90s as my front speakers (and BeoLab 50s as rears). The sound from them is extremely impressive, with an almost holographic soundstage on well-recorded albums. Unlike your sources, all mine are B&O, and vintage (since B&O no longer makes sources of an audiophile quality). I have everything from a quadraphonic turntable and amplifier (connected using attenuators) to a reel-to-reel deck connected. When I get round to it, I'll do a full post on here about my system, including pictures, as it must be among the must unusual B&O setups in the world.
Emil Jensen: Price is a funny thing, The price for BEOLAB 90 is actually cheap when we talk high end. Many other systems are much more expensive then the BEOLAB 90 with amp and cables.
joey_v: its too bad I would lose my top of the line Audioquest WEL signature speaker wires....
I’d be extremely happy not to need these!
https://petertyson.co.uk/audioquest-wel-signature
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
If I drink two beers less on a daily basis, I could afford 8 inches of that cable by Xmas 2019.
Cheers
Beogram 6500 MMC2,Beosound Ouverture,2xBeolab 8000,2xBelolab 4000,Beolab 2,Beolab 7.2,Beo4 navi, 2xBeocom2,Serene,Beosystem 3 mk3,H6 2nd gen,Earphones E8,A8,A9 keyring,Beoplay A1,Bottle opener,Beoplay A2 active(thanks Botty)Wine Set(thanks Botty),4Ktv Samsung 55'',Beolab 7.1 with 42''Panasonic plasma,,Oppo udp-203, LinTronic.
Michael
Michael:It’s a lot of money for music. I can understand that one buys expensive gear but I’m curious how much this is for people who buys them. I wouldn’t like to spend 50% of my net income on speakers and sources for it, but if it was 5% or less I wouldn’t mind. I would rather prefer to also invest in listening live to the gain the best experiences. At home I’m not focused on the music in itself, I want to be moved and be in an environment specifically tailored for it. Not listen to it from microphones and downmixed. Thoughts on this?
I would rather prefer to also invest in listening live to the gain the best experiences. At home I’m not focused on the music in itself, I want to be moved and be in an environment specifically tailored for it. Not listen to it from microphones and downmixed.
Thoughts on this?
The 90 would equal about what I have invested in my stereo. I think the gains are there, there is a density to the sound from truly high end speakers... an experience that has a high initial cost but is free afterwards. The ability to conjure up the band AND the hall is very fulfilling.
OldJack: I’d be extremely happy not to need these! https://petertyson.co.uk/audioquest-wel-signature MM If I drink two beers less on a daily basis, I could afford 8 inches of that cable by Xmas 2019. Cheers
I have a pair of 8 footers... yikes!
Single biwire.
maybe I’ll just keep it in case I go back to traditional speakers after the 90. The WEL are seriously good.
Emil Jensen: Price is a funny thing, The price for BEOLAB 90 is actually cheap when we talk high end. Many other systems are much more expensive then the BEOLAB 90 with amp and cables. For me I can understand people and for my self a set of Beolab 90 could be possible, also a used market is beginning. 5% of what? your income, or your assets, because if it is your income, then it would be quit easy if you just have lived long enough.
you are absolutely correct. As a unit the 90 is fairly priced.
i am a little uncomfortable losing the ability to tweak the components but I can accept that if the 90 really sounds like I think they should sound like.
whats the retail of the 90 before discount? $80,000?
my speakers are $22,000, the amp is a Boulder which is 50,000. The wires are 40,000. The source is 30,000. The preamp is 8,000.
plus I was looking at dual JL Audio Gotham’s which are 12000 each.
if I consolidate and keep some of the wires such as the xlr cabling and the power cords and keep the digital source, I come out even.
pkus the 90 is room independent (sort of).
Now only a decent audio player to feed them😎😎😎
joey_v:The wires are 40,000.
Living Room: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-2 (Center), Beolab 9 (Fronts), Beolab 8000 (Rears), no Subwoofer. Screen: Sony KD-85XH9096Dining Room: Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 4000 on stands, fed by Amazon Echo Show 8Home Cinema: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-4 (Center), Beolab 1 (Fronts), Beolab 4000 (Rears). Projector: Sony VPL-HW55Home Office: Beosystem 3, Beolab 7-4, Beolab 5000, Screen: Sony KD-55XH9005 on Beovision 7-40 stand, ML to Beosound 9000 MK3 and Beosound 5/Beomaster 5 (1 TB SSD version)Bedroom: Sony KD-65XH9077, Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 6002 and Beolab 11 (all white, wall-mounted)
In storage: Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 (1960s).
kallasr: joey_v: The wires are 40,000. I have really good powerlink cables I can sell for hslf of that .... Sorry, I do not believe in cable voodoo. There might be be bad ones out there but no way cables can be worth that much. Ralf
joey_v: The wires are 40,000.
The wires are 40,000.
I have really good powerlink cables I can sell for hslf of that ....
Sorry, I do not believe in cable voodoo. There might be be bad ones out there but no way cables can be worth that much.
Ralf
Ralf,
We are not going down the path of a cable discussion.
My system, my ears, my choice.
I will say, I was never a cable believer and ran the simplest cable configuration with all my systems, until I was able to borrow a midpriced unit. I did not believe it was going to change my mind, but somehow it did. Repeatable. So I searched my contacts for the best possible used cable and I landed my entire loom. I did not pay retail of $4000, maybe I paid 15-20% of that for the whole lot which is a lot less than you would see it for sale on audiogon.
But I will agree, no way cables are worth that much. The cushion for profit is insane.
But given what's out there, the amount I paid for my cables - I'm calling it done for a long long long time... I don't see the need to get the next generation top of the lines as the difference will be incremental IMHO. Part of the reason why I liked my acquisition was that I was able to get the best Audioquests for a reasonable price and it keeps my mind at ease, removes any doubt to upgrade for maybe a decade or more. Peace of mind is priceless.
If I move to the 90, I will connect to the wall with the WEL power cord.
I will keep whatever interconnects I have left and feed the 90 whatever outside sources.
I will also probably just keep the WEL speaker wire for future use as I don't see myself getting rid of them.
So, for those of you who have heard or own the 90, what other speakers did you compare them to or upgrade from?
Mr 10Percent: This may be of use:- https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/bo-tech/
...and this might be a starting point there:
http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2015/10/06/beolab-90-behind-the-scenes/
That's a great article.
I can only believe that the 90 has to be an end game unit.
Plug in my digital stack to it and a TT in the future, done.
joey_v: i am a little uncomfortable losing the ability to tweak the components but I can accept that if the 90 really sounds like I think they should sound like.
You can still tweak with the BL90s if you really want to - they have DSP to play with; wide, narow and omnidirectional settings and parametric equalisation - a fiddler's dream!
Or you could just leave everything flat, do the EQ for your listening position and simply enjoy their utterly spellbinding sound, without the need for constant faffing.
I absolutely adore mine, and so do the friends who keep turning up with bags of LPs and CDs asking to listen to them!
Mr 10Percent: Dont quite understand why you would use another DAC because the BL90 will ADC/DAC regardless?
Thanks for bringing this to my attention - I don't really understand what the speaker's ADC is doing in this context.
I did ask both DCS and B&O seperately whether the combination of the DCS DAC and the BL90 would work well together, connecting via XLR, and no one mentioned the issue of downsampling at the time. I assume the BL90 needs to convert everything to digital for its magic tricks with multiple speakers and its DSP.
There are limitations to the BL90s handling of digital source files, e.g it can't process DSD files so I'm wondering whether you would get a better, more natural sounding result with a high end DAC running DSD plugged into the analogue connections of the BL90, even though these are being re-converted into digital for playback - than if you fed in a pure digital signal, and had this being interpreted into analogue by the BL90s own processors? You could, for instance, just have a digital network bridge or streamer, connected via USB.
What do people think?
So the analog signal is converted to a digital signal once more?
I wonder what benefit if any would a good digital source like a Vivaldi have over the internal DAC then....?
Have you compared Vivaldi vs internal dac? Same file, same cut?
sorry double post
sorry again
joey_v:........my speakers are $22,000, the amp is a Boulder which is 50,000. The wires are 40,000. The source is 30,000. The preamp is 8,000......
Looks like your wires cost twice as much as your speakers. All B&O uses are either DIN or internet cables, oh, sorry, SHIELDED internet cables
Beolab 9 | Beolab 8000 | Beolab 6000 | Beolab 2 | Beolab 3 | Beosound 9000 | Beoplay A9 | Beomaster 8000 | Beovox M75, / S75, / S45.2
mikewalsh: Mr 10Percent: Dont quite understand why you would use another DAC because the BL90 will ADC/DAC regardless? Thanks for bringing this to my attention - I don't really understand what the speaker's ADC is doing in this context. I did ask both DCS and B&O seperately whether the combination of the DCS DAC and the BL90 would work well together, connecting via XLR, and no one
I did ask both DCS and B&O seperately whether the combination of the DCS DAC and the BL90 would work well together, connecting via XLR, and no one
if you read the Beolab90 white paper: https://www.bang-olufsen.com/ContentV3/downloads/BeoLab90/bang-olufsen-beolab90-whitepaper.pdf
section 8 an 9 confirm what I indicated earlier.
All analogue signals are routed via a ADC and then DSP.
All digital signals are DSP then DAC, then D-class amp (same as the BL5)
the ceiling for all signals is 24/192 regardless. The white paper indicates the chipsets for the ADC/DAC and DSP
it would seem your current DAC is downsampling to 24/192 with the BL90. I know it’s also worth checking how 3rd party DACs (either pure DACs or those onboard Streaming Bridges) can auto configure. I know for example, the Auralic Aries did a firmware update a while back and could no longer handshake with the BL90s
I find this thread really really interesting.
Tomorrow, I get home and take delivery of the Melco and the SOtM200. Got a bit of a re-wire job to do as well as upload 40000 tracks (all for now ripped CDs) to the HDD. Then figure out how best to control it all and what mode to do it in.
interesting to hear a couple of views of people using what is considered to be very high-end gear with the BL90s and that even after downsampling, the sound is incredible.
Although I’m not decrying anyone who spends their hard earned dosh on what ever they want (Beoworld/Bang and Olufsen is 100% first world, top 2% concerns), one of my key concerns in selecting my music server was listening to them via setups which I figured to be in the £15000-£20000 mark - solid BL5 to BL50 territory but the sound was not what I was used to and to me....not as good as a system as I remember the 5’s and the 50’s.
Maybe a rash statement but I think a lot of “traditional audiophiles” go a long way in tweaking, adding expensive cables etc and the very highest data rate music files because so many loudspeakers are really not actually that good. Pure opinion but hey!
Hi.
Most of the questions have been answered. However, I might be able to offer some additional perspectives.
Currently, the most obvious reason for using an external DAC between a digital audio source and the BeoLab 90 would be the following:
The less-obvious reason is that you simply like the sound of your DAC. This could be for many reasons, including
In these cases, it makes sense to put a DAC between the source and one of the analogue inputs (either the XLR or the RCA) of the BeoLab 90.
However, if your digital source is putting out LPCM, and it's 192 kHz or lower, then the most "clean" signal path is to go straight into the S-PDIF digital input of the BeoLab 90. If your source is putting out 96 kHz or lower, then you could also use the Optical digital input. This will give you an equivalent magnitude and phase response as the analogue input, but the Sampling Rate Converter used by the digital inputs has a wider signal-to-noise ratio than the analogue inputs. This means you will have a lower noise floor with the digital inputs - although it will merely be lower than an extremely low noise floor.
And, before anyone gets worried about the noise floor of the analogue input because they are reading something into that last statement - fear not... When you use the BeoLab 90 as a Power Link loudspeaker, the volume is automatically fixed to maximum, which means that you are listening to the worst-case noise floor, both for the loudspeakers' inputs and the output stage of the source. I use the BeoLab 90 in this configuration daily, and noise is never an issue.
Hope this helps.
-geoff