ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
hi all - am wondering how the various Beogram turntables stand up against each other in terms of sound? Also given their price point which was reasonably high end how do they stand up against high end modern turntables?
Is the Beogram 4000, for example, competitive against the Linn turntable of its time? At what price point is it competitive today?
Is as 3300 comparable to a 4000 in terms of sound? Am intrigued.
In my experience, the high points of the Beogram ranges are the likes of the 4000/4002/8000/8002, with the latter two models in particular being capable of superb sound when loaded up with an MMC20CL or MMC1. The Thorens/Acoustical Beogram 3000 models from the 1960s are also no slouch, sonically.
As to the later models, I'm afraid I've always been underwhelmed by the performance of the TX2/5005/5500 etc. type linear trackers. Their internal construction is neat but greatly economised compared to the earlier models and you can hear it in their sound. For this era of equipment, I much prefer the radial tracking Beogram RX2/2000/5000 etc. models, which is excellent news as they command much lower prices!
That said, even some of the more lowly models can be a surprise. I remember buying a mint Beogram 2200 purely to acquire the equally mint MMC20CL that someone had fitted to it. I fitted an MMC20S to it before selling it and remember being greatly surprised at just how good the 2200/MMC20S combo sounded!
As to how they compare to modern turntables, this is all down to personal taste. Personally I'd take a Beogram 8002/MMC1 over a comparably priced Linn LP12 and a Beogram 2000/MMC4 over a Rega Planar 3 but many would not...
I tend to agree with Adam. Beograms are really very good with their only weakness being record support. The Beogram 3000 Thorens does not suffer from this. The Beogram also has the advantage that there is no real set up problem so once transit screws are undone, the Beogram is going to sound great whereas setting up a Linn is complicated in comparison. The Beogram is also automatic of course in the majority of cases and the quality of parts is also superb compared with many decks of the time. A Beogram 4000 is hewn from solid and is made to be serviced not disposed of.
I personally prefer the 4000 to the 8000/2 simply due to build quality - there were definite corners cut in the 8000 which is a huge shame when one looks at the concept. The 4000 was over engineered and built, as is seen in the 4002 which was much cheaper to make but still kept the same sound quality and was still an impressive piece of engineering.
I also completely agree with his appraisal of the later tangentials against the radial models - I changed from a 5000 to 5005 and apart from some remote control possibilities, the swap was a downgrade.
Peter
Very interesting answers. I have a 4000 in for repair, minor I hope as is otherwise mint and a 4002 which might be more complicated. Am sending an MMC2 cartridge for restoration for a 3300. Hoping to give each of my children one and keep the 4000 for myself.
I have four different Beogram, 5500, 6500, 4002 and 6000. So far, I have only been using the 5500 and 6500, both with MMC2. I am surprised buy the noise pickup from the vinyl. These are not up to my conventional turntable (own design) with a Rega RB-300 arm and Audio-Technica OC-07 cartridge.The other two from the seventies have a far more solid feel. I will rebuild at least one of them. The 6000 comes with the onboard RIAA/CD4-decoder. Like to have a built-in RIAA, maybe this more than 40 years old one is not very good? These are both with the AC-motor and the heavy platter. I am a bit worried of the main bearing that is a bit different to other turntables. Both are some kind of self-centering not really stable if you touch the periphery of the platter.
If you are trying to compare turntables then the phono cartridge used in the comparison needs to be a constant. The media...selected vinyl for the tests should also be a constant. So comparing a Beogram to another brand means you have to use a B&O cartridge of course. After running some tests in a Beogram, pull and fit the MMC cartridge into the adapter to mount it to a non-B&O brand turntable and repeat the tests. Then you will have a better comparison. Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges as the saying goes.
-sonavor
True, a turntable consists of a chain of components but you can still compare with another chain of Components (turntable/arm/cartridge/RIAA).
And the huge problem when comparing turntables/cartridges/arms is that it's almost impossible to do it rapidly, at least for an average user/listener. Subtle differences are very hard to detect, and imaginary differences easy to induce, when the time between switching from one to another is not almost instantaneous.
Of course, like speakers, most such combos, especially cartridges, have such gross differences subtlety is not usually an issue.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff: And the huge problem when comparing turntables/cartridges/arms is that it's almost impossible to do it rapidly, at least for an average user/listener. Subtle differences are very hard to detect, and imaginary differences easy to induce, when the time between switching from one to another is not almost instantaneous. Of course, like speakers, most such combos, especially cartridges, have such gross differences subtlety is not usually an issue.
Exactly. For me those type of comparisons are not useful. With regard to vintage audio equipment evaluation, I suggest first finding the original specs and see if any reviews can be found when those products were new (old Stereo Review magazines, etc.). Then evaluate what your used, vintage equipment currently sounds like compared to that. I would expect the used item just acquired off Ebay to be less than desirable. That is to be expected with thirty plus year old units and why a full restoration is required to truly experience how the unit can perform.
That is one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is whether the Beogram system ie turntable and limited choice of cartridge sounds as good as or better than other turntables which have greater choice of cartridge and upgrade paths. One doesn't have to compare by using the identical cartridge just one's ears.
agreed
Since a turntable is a combo of drive system, arm, and cartridge, with the arm cartridge combo being particularly prone to working well or not working well together, that's about all you can do.
But one thing that to me sets the Beograms in their own class is their isolation and immunity to vibration and feedback. If you live on a concrete floored home, not as important, but on suspended wood floors...makes a huge difference. I have lived in apartments where you had to tiptoe up to the turntable when it was playing.
Jeff: Since a turntable is a combo of drive system, arm, and cartridge, with the arm cartridge combo being particularly prone to working well or not working well together, that's about all you can do. But one thing that to me sets the Beograms in their own class is their isolation and immunity to vibration and feedback. If you live on a concrete floored home, not as important, but on suspended wood floors...makes a huge difference. I have lived in apartments where you had to tiptoe up to the turntable when it was playing.
I agree on both points, and the isolation in the beograms is splendid!
I've got, IIRC, a 4000, 4002, 6000, 8000, 8002, 3000 and a 7000 (all tangentials) and I've had various MMC20CLs and MMC1s and 2s throughout the years. The 800x variants and the 7000 are the ones I've used the most as they have been part of my main systems. As some others have mentioned, the oldest tangentials are the most well-built but I find the 8000 and 8002 to be two good compromises between the old and the "new".
However, as most of my MMCxs have seen their better days i recently bought an sl1200mk2 in good shape and I put an Ortofon 2M Bronze on it. I use the 1200 mainly for needle dropping as I have lots of old vinyl that I want to digitize, and the bg7000 is still the turntable used in my main system (mainly because I don't want a non-beogram in my livingroom).
Thing is, the 1200/2mBronze combo is by far the best sounding setup I've had. The 8000/20cl combo, as well as the 8002/mmc1 combo can also sound really good from time to time, but the Bronze simply tracks better - even on the sl1200, which tonearm isn't the best tonearm in the world. On some records I'd say the B&O systems are in the same ballpark, but it's as if they are more picky – some records that give the beograms (especially the later ones) problems like distortion etc sound good on the Technics. Also, the MMCs seem more susceptible to surface noise.
Unfortunately none of my once really good MMCs are up to scratch anymore (I now use an MMC4 on my livingroom bg7000...), so I'm no longer able to do any needle drops to show you the differences. It would be very interesting to try a top-class MMC on the Technics (or a better turntable) to see whether the limitations are in the cartridges or in the turntables.
That said, even the sl1200 – known for it's DJ qualities – is less tolerant to vibrations and feedback than the beograms are. B&O did a fantastic job with the suspension in these turntables!
All in all, IMHO a Beogram 'system' can sound really good – at least on some records – but there are other options that may give better sound and more flexibility. ...in my opinion, that is. Others may disagree. For everyday listening I find the beograms good-enough (and very nice to operate!), but for more critical listening and/or needle dropping i would recommend some other solution.
BTW, before I bought the sl1200 I had a more "modern" turntable, a Pro-Ject RPM5, and I hated it. It was flimsy to use, tricky to adjust and also had a major flaw in its construction - the motor suspension caused the motor to vibrate and these vibrations affected the performance... i bought a modification kit that solved the problem, but I was still annoyed that they sold the turntable with such flaws. I looked at some other modern-day turntables and they didn't seem to be much better, so I opted for an older solution instead - hence the 1200. I actually did needle drops using the same cartidge on the Pro-Ject and the 1200, and the 1200 was better (especially when it came to rumble), and then I got rid of the Pro-Ject.
I agree with Henrick on this one - I have a Beogram 4002 that has been serviced and setup with a new Audio Origins MMC20CL and I have a Linn Sondek LP12 that is probably a couple of years newer than the Beogram with a Moving Coil Cartridge and expensive preamp. The Linn is a PIA to setup a cartridge but once done it is done and works.
In terms of sound quality the Linn with the Moving Coil cartridge has a slight edge, there is less background noise and the sound is somehow more full and sharper - but it does depend on the record being played - on a new recording I have parts of a female vocal sound distorted on the Beogram compared the to the Liinn but the vocals sound more realistic. However when it had a Shure Cartridge i t had less detail and the Beogram had the edge.
I should add that I used the same preamp, amplifier and speakers to compare the two but obviously couldn't use the same cartridge, perhaps a more expensive cartridge in the Linn would bring about greater improvements. On the other hand it could be so slight as to be not worth the investment.
I was going to cut down to one record player and keep the Linn but I decided to keep both and have the Beogram in my living room and the linn in my Music Room. I love the look of the beogram and the fact that it is old school B&O.
The big advantage the Beogram has is that it is fully automatic and looks fantastic, the advantage the Linn has over the Beogram is that when I am listening to it, I am not thinking about what is going to go wrong next and simply enjoy the music. So the Linn gets used daily with the Beogram used whenever I get Beogram withdrawal symptoms - I knew if I sold it anyway I would want another!
In the past I have had a Thorens TD160 and Project RPM3 - neither of these has been as good as either the Linn or 4002. I started with a new BG1500 in 1980 and had that for years - upgrading the cartridge made a huge difference. The best radial B&O turntable I had was a BG1700
In summary both the Linn and Beogram, to my ears, are excellent and it would have be an interesting test when they were new. I doubt there would have been much difference.
If I may bring a different, less technical and audiophile light one that question…
I've always been quite insensitive to that vinyl trend. And one day I met the Beogram 1200-2000-3000 decks.
I found them so beautiful objects that I immediately wanted one. You can find them for cheap, second hand, in fair condition.
Having her, caring her, listening to her even just to check it works, brought my attention to this world: Records hunt, endless searches about circular vs. elliptical and so on…
What i try to say is that I never found a deck so beautiful it could give me interest in the records world. Until I saw a Beogram.
And any hardcore record listener I show my deck to, find it gorgeous.
That all I can say!