ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
For fourth Quarter 2018/2019 ending 31st May 2019
Regards Keith....
Not brilliant but at least it's all going to be OK again next year.
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: Not brilliant but at least it's all going to be OK again next year.
Do I sense a hint of sarcasm here?
Vähintään yhdeksänkymmentä prosenttia suomalainen!
Sandyb:Free cash flow becoming more negative, market cap at 1.8bn......there is such little value left, next year seems very far away. Get ready one and all for new ownership
The share price is taking a real beating... Almost 20% down yesterday, and another 20% down today the way it's going...
B&O have been burning cash and selling off assets, and now they've nothing left. The share price is starting to reflect this, and yes - I think the prices will get to a point soon where a takeover will look attractive to someone.
B&O needs to be the 'halo brand' for one of the giants or just scale back as far as they can and become a high-end minnow with no more than a handful of dealers per country. That said, the brand has taken such a hammering over the last 10 years that the people you could always rely on to buy anything B&O have now walked away, never to return.
Very sad, and I myself have been a casualty of this, but they simply cannot carry on as they are now - it's plain to see.
Lee
beocool: Puncher: Not brilliant but at least it's all going to be OK again next year. Do I sense a hint of sarcasm here?
Me? Never!!
Ha!
Indeed, I do look forward to the "stop being so negative" brigade chiming in.
That aside, might a purchase / take-over by a bigger corporate partner not be a bad thing?
Not saying it will happen, but that event need not be a negative, subject to the usual caveats.
Sandyb: Not saying it will happen, but that event need not be a negative, subject to the usual caveats.
Absolutely wouldn't be a negative. This is what B&O need - a company with cash to give the R&D and Design departments and let B&O do what B&O do best...
As it stands, it appears that lack of cash means lack of investment, which will mean lack of new products, which will mean decreased sales, which will mean less cash to spend, etc etc. I believe it's called a 'tailspin'.
I'd love to see B&O taken over, then nurtured - but I think we'd see a huge 'cull' before anything else.
According to my humble opinion what is going wrong is simply the product line. I grew up in a house that only had B&O appliances (TVs Speakers CD players LP players etc). By the years I realized that the reason why we had B&O products was not just the design. It was the sound, the functionality, the integration of products that made us pick this brand. I bought my first B&O product (Beosound Century) at the age of 16 and I had to save money for three years to do so. Since then I have never bought another brand. I am now in my late thirties and although I have the money to buy more stuff than when I was 16 there is nothing to buy that represents the values I consider that B&O represents. In the past 4-5 years I bought a pair of 18s (new), a beolab 2 (used), a beosound moment (new), a beoplay V1 (new), a pair of 4000s (used), beoremote 6, beoremote one, all in all I have a house equipped with only B&O products. The installation and setup was done by myself and I am really enjoying it. It is now almost 2 years that I am looking to buy a TV. There is nothing to buy. The harmony and eclipse are out of the question cause I am not going to spend a little fortune to buy a product that will be obsolete in 5-7 years. The Horizon has a price tag that it is not super expensive but has many issues (ie no Netflix. And I am not going to pay 5000 euros for a TV just to have another apple tv connected to it). Furthermore if you compare the Beovision 7 generation to the new TVs you feel even more stupid to buy a new one. The 7 series had a video output to connect a projector, the new TVs you need a matrix/switcher to do so, which mean more cables, more boxes, more complicated installations. I fully understand that the TV industry has a super fast evolution but why don't they stick with what they do best? For example produce a Beosystem 5. Or a sound bar with video processing possibilities.
As far as the speakers are concerned I do not understand who is going to buy a monophonic speaker. B&O is a Hi-Fi brand not some lifestyle brand. Design is not enough. I would definitely buy a beosound 1 for my terrace but never for my living room! Not even for my bedroom or my kitchen. In my kitchen I have a pair of 15s and a 16 simply because I love listening to music and by that I mean listening to the highest quality my wallet can afford.
As far as music systems are concerned.....the whole lineup is a laugh. There is nothing. Just the core. The issues I had with the beosound moment are countless. I didn't mind them cause I like playing around with my set up and installation. On the other hand my brother in law who had bought a Moment he simply sold it.
I believe that the brand has strong values that are sought after many people. They just need to understand that the people who love the brand and its product care for other things than seasonal colors! They care for a superior sound, a superior picture, superior functionality and integration and last but by no means least design.
Yup, there's a pony in there somewhere!!!
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
There is one Danisch multi billionaire .
Let,s ask him if he want to save the company
I love the brand but not right now with the bad software models they bring out.
Get someone from Apple of MS to sort out the software bugs and let them firestart this brand again.
(i will have a look on July 9th at the new tv from them but the price tag....... 20k !!!)
Over here, at one time McIntosh was on the verge of bankruptcy, when they were bought originally by Clarion. Fortunately for McIntosh, their new owners, up to the present, were willing to allow McIntosh to be McIntosh, didn't try and force them to be something they never were. Unfortunately, even if a new supportive owner were found for B&O, B&O no longer remembers how to be B&O.
Indeed - we can all agree that its hard to make products that remain relevant for 15 years in this age of feat evolving tech, and no physical media.
But, if B&O did more of what their long standing customers want they'd be OK. Look at Apple - yesterday they finally addressed, albeit belatedly, many if not most of the chief missing issues with their line-up, and surprise surprise, the tech community was overjoyed, and gave their WWDC keynote a very enthusiastic response. And there was nothing desperately revolutionary, just addressing the principal concerns the community had about shortcomings with its existing line up.
That all said, B&O are supposed to be coming with a sound bar (a simple one), and a more fully featured one / BS5, so they may get somewhere better line up wise. But its all so painfully slow - the centre speaker / BS5 product is not coming this year, so thats another 9-12m wait.
w5bno123:I believe the negative cash flow was partly caused to a share buy back. It’s doesn’t help that nothing other than the BS Edge was launched with a few colour variations
Not being from a financial background, I have a naive question to ask - If I was considering dropping 15K for a TV or else 25K or 54K for a pair of speakers, should I be worried whether ill get full support for the entire duration of my warranty period for my new purchase?
i.e. for those that truly understand these numbers and in context of the companies performance and trends over the last few years, is there a real risk or is it still ok to splash out on the marquee products?
Puncher: Not being from a financial background, I have a naive question to ask - If I was considering dropping 15K for a TV or else 25K or 54K for a pair of speakers, should I be worried whether ill get full support for the entire duration of my warranty period for my new purchase? i.e. for those that truly understand these numbers and in context of the companies performance and trends over the last few years, is there a real risk or is it still ok to splash out on the marquee products?
Not being from a financial background either, I'd ask myself how good is the support right now whilst they are still in business? If they were to go bust, there would be no liability to honour any guarantees. If somehow, like with Saab, the spare parts section had been hived off into a separate company, spares would be available whilst there was sufficient demand, but I wouldn’t want to suggest that you could compare B&O modules with body panels.
I think that there will be a market for those with enough money not to care if their £25K TV fails after a couple of years and B&O are no longer in business. For most of us, though, the high price plus risk of B&O not surviving in a form that can honour guarantees will make us look elsewhere. The design USP, if there still is one, is no longer enough.
Graham
Sandyb:Indeed - we can all agree that its hard to make products that remain relevant for 15 years in this age of feat evolving tech, and no physical media.
Difficult yes, but its exactly what B&O used to do! The distinct design and virtually timeless design would offset many technical short comings.
Take the BL18 its origin is almost 30 years back! Beolab 17,- 20 years and the list goes on and on.
But if you remove the design aspect and still have the shortcoming why even bother?
Take the Core as an example, the only offering in the audio segment presented in a black plastic box?
Once the bean counters become ceo.... usually is game over. To me the CEO for a start is not even passionate about the products or the company.The whole sales and marketing department is just totally chaotic and without direction. B&O lost almost all of the North American market at this point.
I have seen very few real new products that have been developed from the ground up in the past 3 years.. just saying. Nothing that wasn't already in development anyways... Just more variations and colors of the same products.
To be honest we all know what products we would like to see from B&O, It just seems that the people at Struer that are aware, don't have a say in anything anymore. You can't do design and development by share holder committee . All they want is money asap.
I've got a financial background, having been an asset manager, though not an analyst per se.
I haven't looked closely at their accounts, but I dont think they are in financial peril at the moment by any means. Debt levels are not high, and the financial metrics look conservative. Therein lies part of the issue, in that they have plenty of cash on the balance sheet I think, but have been cautious in deploying it. That can cause problems with respect to (low) investment, which can pave the way for future growth.
Long story short, they're financially ok at the moment. But equity markets will not fund any expansion cheaply if necessary, without any obvious and meaningful change in strategy. That doesn't look likely right now, but may come over the next year.
The banks or debt markets are a source of funds too, but they aren't likely to be any more generous - they look at the equity cushion, which has suffered massive erosion over the last year.
Anyway, I'd still bet on them having a future, but its likely to get worse before it gets better.
Humble pie will need to be eaten first.
Sandyb: Anyway, I'd still bet on them having a future, but its likely to get worse before it gets better.
Sandyb: Anyway, I'd still bet on them having a future, but its likely to get worse before it gets better. Humble pie will need to be eaten first.
So, after all it seems that you are a member of ‘the "stop being so negative" brigade’ yourself.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
Ha! I'm part of no brigade, sensible realism would be as far as I would go.
As for the rest, history and this forum has recorded well who they are.
My point was that they will more likely than not still have a future - i.e. not disappear. But that's a low hurdle to clear.
Sandyb: Ha! I'm part of no brigade, sensible realism would be as far as I would go. As for the rest, history and this forum has recorded well who they are. My point was that they will more likely than not still have a future - i.e. not disappear. But that's a low hurdle to clear.
I am fine with that (sensible realism).
I don’t have to notice it, I guess - I am an optimist by nature, when it comes to B&O....they have overlived many a disaster in their history.
Whatever will be the outcome this time.....some will like it , others not, depending on their preferences and ‘way of viewing things’.
cooldude: Once the bean counters become ceo.... usually is game over. To me the CEO for a start is not even passionate about the products or the company.
Once the bean counters become ceo.... usually is game over. To me the CEO for a start is not even passionate about the products or the company.
I agree 100%. This company needs to be marketing led with strong sales input. The money men are clueless when it comes to what the market wants.
Regards Graham
joeyboygolf:I agree 100%. This company needs to be marketing led with strong sales input. The money men are clueless when it comes to what the market wants. Regards Graham
It's - as always - sad to see this beloved brand struggle so hard and the root cause seems to be CEO and management since years. There is so much technology and design potential laying around and sleeping at Bang & Olufsen that I strongly hope someone finally wakes up and uses it the right way to get the company up and running again as it should.
- Longer product life cycles like in the old days (possible with modular design)- timeless design and no simple plastic boxes- strong marketing- ...
Have a look at all the (upcoming) plasticky remotes for smart lights and speakers (Ikea, Osram, Sonos...).
Why doesn't B&O use their unbeatable beautiful Essence Remote and promote it together with the BLGW as a more comfortable + luxury smart home solution for all the people that don't light cheap plastic things in their home or don't like to use a phone/tablet for such tasks?.Get back "the Farm", make it a cool facility to visit and invite people/customers to come by, having a good time, showing them how stuff is made etc. etc. etc. I still buy a lot of B&O stuff - even their stock - but I can't save them alone.
There are a dozen ways for Bang & Olufsen to shine and even dominate on the market and I bet there are still enough people left in Struer to make that happen.