Beolab 50 and Turntables - Is the sound digitised

Hi Guys, I've been offered a LINN Sondek LP12 at a great price to use with my Beolab 50s  and considering buying it however. The Beolab 50s and more recent speakers  as i understand it is a digital speaker and if i were to connect the turntable to the speakers via the phono in (first through a phono stage) the speaker would digitise the sound which takes away the whole reason of getting a Turnable /analogue source.

Am i correct in thinking that turntables with B&O systems of recent times 17s, 18s, 20,50's & 90s is pointless if you want an analogue sound? I hope not  

I've already bought Vinyls and was about to pay for the Linn sondek which is an absolutely beautiful and great sounding turntable.

maybe a silly question to start of with, but what do you consider to be analoge sound? And how do differentiate it from digital sound? If you would let's say record a record/vinyl 1 to 1, could you actually tell the difference?

I would say Analogue sound is sound that was recorded in analogue and reproduced in analague, This would mainly really apply to old music produced prior to the digital age. The music i want to listen to was recorded in the 50s, 60, 70s and early 80s.

I would also consider digital sound to be anything that was sampled from analogue sources like tapes. I dont think theres anything wrong with digital music. I just want to listen to Vinyl.

 

I confirmed with a B&O dealer that indeed the 50s (and newer speakers) will sample the analogue signal and digitise it before playing it.

Sounds like you bought the wrong speakers.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think it fully applies here as the 50's will still happily play all the faults/charm of the vinyl and if you want them to ''digitise'' it even less then you can always turn the room comp off. I have a few recordings of basically LP's and they sound very analogue/the same as analoge to me through the 50's. If analoge is the thing you want then you kind of have to say to what level as LP's are already compromised to the extent of the medium used and then also the amps, cables,cross overs and speakers them selves. In the case of your 50's you'll get the sound closest to how it is on the Record itself, just none of the in between steps will be an altering factor to any real degree. just my opinion though, try it before judging I would say

Mikipidia:

I understand what you're saying but I don't think it fully applies here as the 50's will still happily play all the faults/charm of the vinyl and if you want them to ''digitise'' it even less then you can always turn the room comp off. I have a few recordings of basically LP's and they sound very analogue/the same as analoge to me through the 50's. If analoge is the thing you want then you kind of have to say to what level as LP's are already compromised to the extent of the medium used and then also the amps, cables,cross overs and speakers them selves. In the case of your 50's you'll get the sound closest to how it is on the Record itself, just none of the in between steps will be an altering factor to any real degree. just my opinion though, try it before judging I would say

I know what you are saying,- but the 50 is exclusively a digital system.

The DSP will do filter transformations you cannot possible do in an analog system, and thus the sound will never be or resemble an analog sound.

You have even (unknowingly perhaps) very accurately described that sound somewhere in one of your videos...

Note I did NOT say better or worse- just different!

 

So if you can hear the difference between a full analog signal and an analog signal that has been converted to a high resolution digital signal, then yes, you may hear a difference on the 50s. I’d bet I couldn’t.

That is not even remotely what i wrote! 

Yes, the BeoLab 50s will digitise your LP12's output – but then so would a complete Linn system. In fact, Linn's latest phono stage, the Urika II, is designed to digitise the turntable's output before feeding it to their active speakers, as they believe that the best sound quality is attained by digitising the signal at the earliest possible stage. Digital speakers with DSP are simply the way high-end is going, and this will soon become the norm.

Yes the 50s are a pure digital speaker and really I do love them. I just always assumed I had an option of playing analogue especially since most dealers have turn tables in the shops. My music up until recntly was 100% digital which I love as I have hi-Rez music streaming subscription up to 24bit 192khz. 

i simply wanted to play some vinyl. I tempted to move the analogue to digital conversion job to a separate device like the ps audio phono NuWave that would take the vinyl source and samples it via DSD and convert it to digital. The Ps audio also outputs pure analogue in case I want passive speakers later on for a separate listening setup.  

 I know this solution defeats part of the purpose of playing pure vinyl but I’d feel better as the analogue to digital converter in the 50s isnt audiophile grade in my opinion and can’t compete with standalone units. Plus I need a phono stage anyway so if the ps audio phono stage has a fantastic DAC & ADC then great.

1. I can assure you there is a conventional analog gain stage ahead of the ADC.

2. Apart from a more accurate RIAA compensation, I fail to see the benefit in not using the analog gain stage for the compensation?

Show me some facts, i.e noise figures!

3. The BL 50 could do the RIAA compensation without breaking a sweat. 

 

 

That makes me feel allot better. I did suspect linn”s speakers were active with dsd but I find the products from linn esoteric in the sense they don’t explain allot on their website and they don’t have allot of dealers unlike B&O. 

@ Epsilon 20

What exactly do you mean by "not audiophile grade" ?  

I you want to the "purity" of vinyl you shouldn't even be considering the BL 50!

You should go for a classic analog amp and analog speakers instead.

BEOVOX141:

That is not even remotely what i wrote!

That was my response to the OP, not you. Sorry if you misunderstood.

Don't get me wrong the way B&O have balanced the tweeters, power application and design are top notch. BUT the DAC and ADC are quite old and outdated.

The 50s Analogue inputs which also include the power link connector uses a Texas Instruments PCM4220 Analogue to Digital converter.

The Digital to analogue converter, which I now question what the purpose is since its a digital speaker is the the Burr-Brown 1798 DAC which is a 15 year old DAC. Texas Instruments bought Burr-Brown http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1798.pdf

My portable chord Mojo DAC cost £500 has quite a significantly better DAC. My oppo 205 also has two DACs that are better than the single one in the 50s and that cost £1200. 

Hmmmm......are you hunting specs - or are you listening to music?

MM

Thats a fair question MM but I only went looking for specs to learn about the speakers that stand proudly in my living room. Normally when you buy non B&O speakers accompanied by amps its about the specs your getting for the money. The 50s are a premium speaker but they are sold on the basis of ease of use, musicality, the mechanics of the rising tweeters and design. I actually want to know whats under the hood after paying the asking price.

In my case I was going to start a new hobby collecting old jazz vinyls recorded in the 1950s and listening to them via the Beolab 50s. I could just stick to digital music which realistically is so easy to work as all the jazz albums I want are on my streaming platform in CD or Hi-rez,  but want the fanfare of Vinyl.

If the speakers digitise the sound ,then buying a turntable is an expense that makes no sense unless you already own allot of vinyl.

The “purity” of that era is so compromised in terms of recording anyway that I don’t understand the fuss. Not all vinyl is equal and by todays standards the recording equipment wasn’t all that clean compared either. Sure that gave a certain and maybe a desired sound but most of the time that was just the best they could do with the comprise of vinyl. Don’t get me wrong, I love vinyl too as it does have a certain flair to it, but the medium it self is even limited in the amount of “data”/signal you can record on to it.

And as for the 50’s i personally wouldn’t care too much about the adc as it’s good/clean/works well. Anytime anybody labels something “audiophile grade” they actually mean a prefference. It’s clever marketing mostly. I tested the b&w 800d3’s with all the “audiophile” amps and cramp like that vs the 50’s. The people that tried to sell me the b&w kit laughed at the 50’s as apparently it’s all style and no substance with b&o and yet to me the 50’s still sounded better, all be it just slightly. What pulled me over the line for 50’s that they were a cheaper package for slightly better sound. In the end there are certainly other brands with better sounding speakers than the 50’s but you’ll have to spend a fortune and reeeeally love your vinyl. Not to mention that you’ll be tuning the “system” for ever as amp, dac,adc,cables etc combo’s will all give a (slightly) different sound. But then everything will be “audiophile” approved and you may end up with an equally good sounding setup(or worse lol), but not necessarily a better one

I still say to just get a turntable you like and try it out, you need to have it anyway, and maybe it surprises you and you’ll like it as is.

The word "Audiophile" seems to be an emotive word for some as it brings up thoughts of non B&O fans lambasting our tastes in loud speakers. Personally I I would never get a set of speakers that required a rack with amps, pre-amps, power conditioners, mono amp for each left/right speaker as honestly it would look a mess and want speakers that fit into my life not the other way round. And yes you would be continuously trying to balance the Hifi racks if I chose different components from different makers. I'm sure if you got  a pro to pick the components that system would rival the 50s in sound but not overall package.

I agree that CDs, SACDs and certainly uncompressed digital sound is superior to Vinyl. With Vinyl its a lottery of what you will get in terms of sound quality especially when buying older records.

If I bought a cheaper turntable, I probably wouldn't care so much abut the digitisation of the analogue signal but the linns cost an arm and a leg I obviously want to get the best out of it.

Lets not forget all the hi-rez streaming applications like Deezer Hi-fi, Tidal and Qobuz will take analogue sources for the older music and convert them to digital. It just wanted a chance to experience analogue sound , whether for the good or bad, at times when I want to chill out and listen to music in a ceremonial fashion  

Mikipidia:

I still say to just get a turntable you like and try it out, you need to have it anyway, and maybe it surprises you and you’ll like it as is.

I’d second that - give it a try!

P.S. ever considered a Beogram turntable, one with the tangential tracking - maybe a Beogram 4000?

 

MM

Just one more thought - since each Beolab 50 is basically a mono speaker, does it need the power of a top of the line recent stereo ADC? Would an older, known and reliable chip be a satisfactory choice? I just wouldn’t automatically discount it as a viable solution is all.

I personally think the “audiophile” thing is a misnomer mostly (and a clever marketing term)as i would say that 5’s 50’s and 90’s would all be in that catagory, if you could call it that. I think WE are audiophiles for sure, I think it’s a correct term for people that are a bit too much in to audio but as for labeling gear(speakers and such)as such is where I don’t think it really applies as there is no standard. It’s a bit like all the modern day products/electronics that have the label “pro” on it. Let’s take a mac book/ipad “pro”, there isn’t much pro about it other than it’s a bit more powerfull.

So you, me, we are audiophiles. But if someone says product x is “audiophile grade” then show me numbers or a comparison to product y which isn’t labeled as such. Other than that i think it’s marketing mostly and more or less a statement of prefference, which is obviously fine but that’s subjective rather than objective

I have a turntable plugged into my Beolab 90s via a phono preamp and preamplifier (not a cheap one, either!). I also worried that it was pointless due to the digitisation of the signal.

I needn't have worried - it sounds stunning and blows all the other sources into the weeds!

MM - I did originally try and get a Beogram Turntable for 3 months looking on ebay, speaking to dealers and private sellers but i there were so many models in various conditions so couldnt decide on which one to get. Plus there was a concern that i would struggle (have to pay an arm and a leg)  to get replacement styluses and cartridges for these vintage and/older models. I then went the opposite direction to look at Pro-ject and Rega turntables and they were perfectly good but didnt like any other designs as  i wanted something with a wood finish. I then stumbled accross a LINN dealer selling a mid- range Sondek L12 (they have a low, middle & high end player) at half the usual price. So essentially the LINN ticked all the boxes.

MIKIPEDIA - I really like the design and Ultimately I really want to listen to Jazz from the 40, 50's and 60s and allot of the artists from this time are getting their music re-pressed in new Vinyl from the original master tapes by companies like Mobile Fidelity, Blue note records and Music Matters Jazz. They wont be getting a release digitally as far as im aware and they will sound superior to the original Vinly pressings. So in short ill be going for it. And as Politician pointed out, LINNS top of the range phono stage the URIKA II digitizes the signal before sending this to its amps and speakers just shows that it can work if you pick the right components. Although i say this without having listened to a digitized analogue Vinly

I think that B&O should give form of "official advice" of what devices work best with their speaker - things like streamers, Turntables, Phono stages etc. I know they do this in the IDEA CATALOGUE that i've seen online but they didnt include turntables.

I have two options for the phono stage after some modest research time. 

Option 1- A Schiit Audio Mani phono stage which costs £149 & has stella reviews or option 2 the PS audio Nuwave phone stage (£1k). I'm learning towards the cheaper phono phono stage while i learn what works best with the speakers.

AdamS - What phono stage and preamplifier are you using?

Epsilon20:

It just wanted a chance to experience analogue sound

Then as said several times, the 50 is NOT your choice! And its NOT about how or where you do digital conversion or what nots!

The 50 processes the signal in ways you cannot do in an analog system, and thus the sound will NEVER have the properties of analog sound!

 

Its a bit like asking for the CRT TV experience on an OLED screen, No matter how gorgeous the OLED technology is,- it will never happen!

So in this case you need to get a full analog setup if you truly appreciate the properties of analog sound.

 

DMacri:

Just one more thought - since each Beolab 50 is basically a mono speaker, does it need the power of a top of the line recent stereo ADC? Would an older, known and reliable chip be a satisfactory choice? I just wouldn’t automatically discount it as a viable solution is all.

You have to elaborate a bit here, how did mono sneak into that question?

Where in the signal chain are you considering putting in an ADC?

 

BEOVOX141:

Epsilon20:

It just wanted a chance to experience analogue sound

Then as said several times, the 50 is NOT your choice! And its NOT about how or where you do digital conversion or what nots!

The 50 processes the signal in ways you cannot do in an analog system, and thus the sound will NEVER have the properties of analog sound!

Its a bit like asking for the CRT TV experience on an OLED screen, No matter how gorgeous the OLED technology is,- it will never happen!

So in this case you need to get a full analog setup if you truly appreciate the properties of analog sound.

Your right BEOVOX, Worst case i can just buy some relatively affordable passive bookshelf speakers, an amp to power them and i'm golden. Obviosuly this would would mean i have another audio setup in another room but that would be a pure audio chain.

Epsilon20:

AdamS - What phono stage and preamplifier are you using?

Anatek MC1 phono preamp and Yamaha CX-10000 preamplifier.

BEOVOX141:

You have to elaborate a bit here, how did mono sneak into that question?

Where in the signal chain are you considering putting in an ADC?

Maybe I am assuming too much, but each BL50 is basically a single channel of a stereo pair (thus mono). They have Digital Signal Processing and features analog inputs, so it needs an analog to digital converter stage prior to the DSP. ADC chips are most likely built for stereo operation at a minimum, unless I have that wrong, so either the second channel is idle, or the inputs may be connected in parallel. Either way, that may reduce the burden on the circuit.

Jeff:

Jeff

I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.

Ok, I have to explain myself. So the BL50 is a system with an ADC front end for the analog inputs, a digital input feed, a DSP for applying signal modifications, a DAC to convert this all back to analog to feed the amplifiers, which in turn drive the speaker elements. I skipped over the electronic crossovers, but you get the point. So adding another external converter of any type is bound to damage the sound. Just feed the Beolab the best signal you can and you should be fine.

Now if you have a component of any type, it has to contend with the quality of the power supply, the signal it receives, and the environment it is in including heat from within in operation and the ambient air temperature. I am simply stating that a component designed for two input signals may respond a little better to having to process just one because the current demand would be lower, and there would be no influence from another signal to contend with - no cross-talk from the alternate signal channel. I could imagine the ADC to have better performance only half loaded. So maybe a tried and true ADC component running half of its capabilities is just fine and the circuit would not benefit from a higher spec chip running at a higher sample rate and/or bit depth.

@ DMacri

DMacri:

and there would be no influence from another signal to contend with - no cross-talk from the alternate signal channel

120dB is considered threshold of pain for sound.....

Iam not sure iam following but besides having amps the slave speaker is basically passive so iam not sure how you’d do this.

Mikipidia:

the slave speaker is basically passive

Where did you get that idea from    Please elaborate

I follow the conversation Dom, I just am amazed at the lengths some people go to, not you, to argue about how many digital angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Epsilon20:

Am i correct in thinking that turntables with B&O systems of recent times 17s, 18s, 20,50's & 90s is pointless if you want an analogue sound?

So I guess in the end the answer is "no, it is not pointless". You can route the analog signal from your LINN/preamp combination to the Beolabs, or use an outboard ADC, if you think it may provide superior performance, and route the digital signal to them. Either way, the original analog signal will be digitized, but that doesn't mean the signal will be altered so significantly in the process to ruin the experience.

BEOVOX141:

Where did you get that idea from Please elaborate

The 50’s have one dsp(chip) for both speakers in the master speaker. So the master does all the computation, processing and room comp and then sends the finished signal of to the slave speaker.

The 90’s have a dsp chip in both speakers and each one does it’s own calculation and dsp stuff.

I meant to say that it’s passive in a computational sense, not in the old fashioned sense.

Epsilon20:

Am i correct in thinking that turntables with B&O systems of recent times 17s, 18s, 20,50's & 90s is pointless if you want an analogue sound?

And now the game changer, just a hypothesis: Epsilon20 wants to listen to jazz of the 50 of the last century. So he is buying new reissued albums.

In producing a reissue album, the original masters are digitalized, processed, etc. Finally a record is pressed.

But what is the point of this discussion (in this hypothesis) if he wants to experience vinyl if even the origin of the vinyl was digitalized!

Mikipidia:

The 50’s have one dsp(chip) for both speakers in the master speaker

Based on the information in the technical sound guide, I find this very hard to believe.

Do you have anything that could support the claim?

Carolpa:

Epsilon20:

Am i correct in thinking that turntables with B&O systems of recent times 17s, 18s, 20,50's & 90s is pointless if you want an analogue sound?

And now the game changer, just a hypothesis: Epsilon20 wants to listen to jazz of the 50 of the last century. So he is buying new reissued albums.

In producing a reissue album, the original masters are digitalized, processed, etc. Finally a record is pressed.

But what is the point of this discussion (in this hypothesis) if he wants to experience vinyl if even the origin of the vinyl was digitalized!

Amen, brother!!! If I remember correctly, the original demos of BeoLab 90 were done with Spotify tracks, and BeoLab 5 had their own demo CDs. I gave away many hundred records mainly because I was a partyophile vs an audiophile, and the warmth of my records (even with a nice system and many special masters) probably came from spilled drinks and cigarette smoke. Digital is good enough for me, and I only wish I could have a set of top BLs to prove it.