A/D & D/A converters... and sound quality through ML, PL, BM5, BV7, Transmiter, etc...

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Tux Posted: Sun, Dec 15 2019 11:13 AM

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Hi there,

I'm wondering how the audio signal is mistreated in my home B&O system!

For example, when I connect a Beogram to my BL18 through Besound Master 5, BV7-55 MK3.

The audio signal way is:

1) Link Beogram 9500 --RCA--> Behringer UFO202 : analog

2) UFO202: analog to digital conversion (first conversion!)

3) Link Behringer --USB--> Beomaster 5 : digital

4) BM5: is there any DA conversion inside?

5) Link BM5 --MasterLink--> BV7: does the ML carry a digital signal or an analog signal?

6) BV7 with BeoSystem 3: are there analog to digital conversions and vice versa in this equipment?

7.1) BV7 --PowerLink--> Transmiter 1: PowerLink is analog to digital?

7.2) BV7 --PowerLink--> BeoLab 2: ?

8) Transmiter 1 --wisa--> Beolabs (18 / 17 / 6000): in my opinion it's a digital signal carried by wisa but...

Maybe I am wrong but in my opinion, the less there are analog to digital conversions and vice versa if the sound quality is not better the sound will be at least more faithful.

My goal is to replace the Beogram 9500 by a Rega Planar 3 with Exact cartridge. But, as we say in France,
I don't want to give jam to pigs! So, if the sound quality will not improve from the B&O to the Rega, I'll save my money.

Many thanks for your inputs.

Take care,

Tux

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Millemissen replied on Sun, Dec 15 2019 12:40 PM

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My take is, that you should better save that money......

.......unless you want to set up a seperate system for that turntable (amp and speakers).

Whether you will like that better or not, only a test can show.

Whether it is ‘better’ or ‘more faithfull’ (to what?) or not, you will certainly never know!

What are you missing, when listening to the vinyls on the 9500?

P.S.

To 4/5 - yes, the ML is an analog signal.

MM

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Tux replied on Sun, Dec 15 2019 6:39 PM

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Hi Millemissen,

Thanks for your reply.

To answer to your question regarding the Beogram 9500:
I bought it second-hand and had it serviced at B&O in Lyon (the arm only moved a few millimeters). The repairer told me that he had done what he could, the part necessary for its total repair no longer existing. Now the arm is moving properly but the sound is horrible (as if the tip did not touch the disc continuously). It is a MMC2 cartridge, delivered with the turntable. I saw that in Marseille there was a company which proposed to refurbish it (but I am interested in any other information if one of you knows a good address).
So I said to myself that as long as you invest a considerable amount, you might as well turn to new, reputable equipment with spare parts still available.
Rega Planar 3 being the ideal choice for me.

OK, audio in ML is analog.

It is the same with PL, isn't it?

Tux

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Jeff replied on Sun, Dec 15 2019 8:29 PM

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PL is analog. Is the tracking force set heavy enough on your table? Has it sounded OK and then suddenly started sounding bad?

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Millemissen replied on Sun, Dec 15 2019 8:52 PM

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If it is about repairing the cartridge (it probably needs a repair) this is the goto adress (at least in the EU):

https://www.tonabnehmerservice.de/en/home/

Who in yout region could help with/refurbish the turntable, I don’t know.

However a fully working BG9500 should be a good choice for a turntable - and a Rege Planar 3 isn’t cheap.

MM

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Tux replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 8:56 AM

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Hi Jeff,

Jeff:

PL is analog. Is the tracking force set heavy enough on your table? Has it sounded OK and then suddenly started sounding bad?

When I got this turntable it was not working fine. The arm was to moving more than 1 or 2 cm toward the left.

I replaced the both belts but issue was still there.

B&O technician checked it and temporary fixed it. The part who has to be replaced is not made anymore. But now the arm moves.

My mistake, maybe, was to give the Beogram without it MMC2 cartridge to B&O Service...

When I got it back, I tried it but it works as the record was scratched but it is not because I played it on on another turntable with success.

How to adjust the tracking force?

Maybe the stylus is worn or dead. I'm going to contact the company Millemissen gave me the URL... after the dealer has answered to me.

Take care,

Tux

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Tux replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 9:12 AM

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Hi Millemissen,

Thanks for the address.

As I said in my previous answer to Jeff, I'll contact this company according to the answer of the dealer of my BG.

Yes, Rega Planar 3 is not cheap but it's a solid value with available spare parts!

But the die is not cast yet! I still hope to repair the BG for a fair price because it has its place in my audio-video system. But I asked a local seller for a quote for Rega.
It is clear that the path that the audio signal must follow from the groove of the disc to my ears and the many conversions from analog to digital and vice versa which it is the subject of, a well-cut nail mounted on a Japanese stick will have the same sound quality! (I'm just exaggerating a little)

Take care,

Tux

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Millemissen replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 9:56 AM

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Hi Tux,

please don’t forget the multiple conversions, up- and downsamling, adding of a RIIA curve etc etc, that a recording - in almost every case - has undergone before you can put the vinyl disc on your turntable.

MM

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TWG replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 10:00 AM

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Maybe you should check the sound quality of other sources (e.g. a CD player) when fed to the Behringer UFO compared to feeding it straight into the Beosystem 3 . The Behringer is only an ultra cheap USB-Audiointerface and so are its A/D converters. 

Can you connect your Beogram through a good(!) phono preamp to the Beosystem 3 just for testing? Than you can check if there's a difference in sound quality between the cheap Behringer UFO and the direct input on Beosystem 3 - before buying a beautiful Rega.

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Tux replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 12:16 PM

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Hi TWG,

The Behringer works fine because I use it with the ChromeCast Audio provided by B&O when Spotify has stopped to support the BeoSound 5.

I had the choice and I choose the UFO in order to play vinyl records from my former Sony PS-LX500 turntable.

The issue is not there but thank for your input.

I am aware that the Behringer is not a high-end DAC (~ 25 €) but it does the job.
Going back to the whole chain of conversions that is between my vinyl record and my speakers, is UFO the weak link? I'm not sure.

Being taker of all information, I am open to improve my material while remaining reasonable on the price side!

Tux

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Keith Saunders replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 12:36 PM

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Message for Tux,

All your email's each time you post are rejected by your email supplier free.fr as it treats all emails from Beoworld as spam.

Keith..

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Millemissen replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 2:30 PM

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Tux:

I am aware that the Behringer is not a high-end DAC (~ 25 €) but it does the job.

Going back to the whole chain of conversions that is between my vinyl record and my speakers, is UFO the weak link? I'm not sure.

Being taker of all information, I am open to improve my material while remaining reasonable on the price side!

Tux

I certainly don’t think that the Behringer should be ‘the weak link’ - cheap has nothing to do with being bad, when it comes to DAC’s!

Please read this test/review that (the mysterious) NwAvGuy wrote some time ago:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html

I have had no bad experiences with that little fellow.

MM

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Jeff replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 3:16 PM

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In my experience differences between DACs are almost always inaudible, and any differences are highly exaggerated if they do exist. Some of the audio guys I know and I did a listening test with a variety of DACs some years ago, DACs of differing prices and technologies (oversampling 16 bit/18 bit, 1 bit bitstream, etc.) and after correcting for level imbalances in the analog outputs no one could tell any difference in blinded testing, let alone double blinded testing. Haven't played with ultra cheap DACs like the Behringer, but wouldn't surprise me if it was transparent, op amp driven analog outputs and mass produced, high performance DAC chips are commodities.

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Tux replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 5:40 PM

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Keith Saunders:

Message for Tux,

All your email's each time you post are rejected by your email supplier free.fr as it treats all emails from Beoworld as spam.

Keith..

Hi Keith,

Sorry for that. I modified my email address to gmail with the hope it works now.

Take care,

Tux

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Tux replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 5:51 PM

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Hi Millemissen,

I totally agree with you: price does not make the quality.

Before to purchased my second Behringer, the UCA222, to use it as a DAC between my Linux PC and my Beosound Essence MKI, I visited the link you gave me.

Take care,

Tux

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Tux replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 6:00 PM

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Hi Jeff,

The blind test is a good way to make up your own mind and not take everything for granted.

I did it, on my PC (DAC Behringer UAC222, BS Essence MKI and 2 BL4 "PowerLink").

I couldn't make the difference between FLAC and 320kb MP3. On some tracks, I prefered the MP3. I thought it was FLAC because it seemed to me more detailed than the real FLAC!

Of course, both files were "compiled" from a WAVE file.

Player was VLC.

But I continue to prefer to store FLAC files... My ears will not improve with the age but...

Take care,

Tux

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Jeff replied on Mon, Dec 16 2019 8:41 PM

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Oddly enough, conversion to MP3 can actually make some "music" sound better. A lot of modern music is mixed to not take advantage of the full dynamic range of digital, it's recorded right up at the top of the dynamic range scale, so it sounds loud when played. There's a lot of bad mixing going on here, for "marketing" reasons. Most MP3 encoders don't like excessive high freq content and clipping, and these songs are full of clipped peaks. MP3 encoders tend to round of the sound by removing and not encoding these very high frequency noises you get from clipping. Ironic.