ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi All
I'm a new member this being my first thread so if this question has been answered (and no doubt it must have been but I cant find it) so please go easy on me!
A brief introduction, I have always loved B&O ever since my dad brought home a Century many years ago. This eventually passed into my hands and is still in daily use in our kitchen.
Admittedly my B&O love affair usually exceeds the ability of my wallet, at present my system is an elderly Beosystem 2300 with Penta 3 speakers having recently had the mid range rubbers restored has now transformed the sound and renewed my interest. I generally play music from Tidal on a Macbook with the signal being sent to airport express plugged into my B&O aux socket. Apart from turning on the 2300 it just sits there looking classic, both radio and CD functions are obsolete as far as my music listening is concerned.
So this got me thinking maybe time to upgrade or make a change in how I use my system, as the speakers are powered why not play direct from my Macbook to airport express connected to the speakers?
My main concern was the 44.1mhz max governed by using the airport express, I want to play High resolution at present the only option would be to plug my Macbook direct to the speakers which would require a cumbersome cable (something I really want to avoid).
I started to look around for an alternate streaming device what a minefield! numerous boxes each promising the world but not always delivering when reading the small print. eventually I settled on a Cambridge CXNv2 streamer this by all account has won many awards and is 'best in class' in every review. this allows streaming direct to the unit from wifi or ethernet from a home router, In theory this should play true high res and can be operated with an app from my iPhone... happy days! having played this for 3 days initially I thought it does sound amazing, its sold as looking amazing too, I'm not convinced that this square grey fronted box will be remembered by any of my kids in 10 years+ time or even next year. likewise the remote being plastic is lost amongst the plethora of other remotes we own. To be fair looks of this unit where not the reason I bought, its in keeping with how we/I generally listen to music i.e. via a streaming service. My initial enthusiasm has wained now that I have discovered a few things, from what I can tell the 'only' way to play high res music is via my macbook plugged in with a USB cable and not available with wifi streaming. This kind of misses the point, I did ask the question before buying! I've also emailed Cambridge and am waiting for a response so maybe this issue can be resolved. As it stands the logistics of playing high res are no better than my 2300 B&O mmmm!
Ok so this new system surely must sound better as its new technology compared to my 2300, now for the life of me I have compared several pieces of music over the past day. There is an improvement on both units when connected by wires and playing high res as opposed to streaming wifi.
I am now listening to my 2300 plugged into my Macbook via the headphone socket it sounds perfect to me so I think I will be making use of the Cambridge retailers return policy shortly.
My question after this longwinded intro is this, how do I connect my macbook wirelessly to my Beo 2300 and play true high res music?
Hi Oliver
I Wonder if it does can’t seem to find a specification as yet.
The BeoSystem (you mean BeoSound, right?) was make in the age, where the highest possible resolution was what is on a CD.
This means that the 2300 is able to play 44.1/16, which is the standart CD resolution.
Feeding more/higher than that into that system won’t give you any benefits.
Also when you look at the specs of the BeoLab Penta, you may notice the 96 db value - which is equivalent to the 16 bits of the CD.
And the highest possible frequency is described at 20 khz - which does not exceed the possible values of the CD specs.
This all means that you won’t benefit in any way from feeding more than 44.1/16 into your setup.
Also notice that this is way beyond what humans normally can hear.
I can’t deny that you may have heard differences.
But you also must ask from where these differences come.
Compairing files in 44.1/16 and in higher values is extremely different.
Not only could the files origin in different source material, also a slight difference in the SPL (= how loud they are and are played back) could make you believe, that one is ‘better’ than the other.
Besides the human memory often plays tricks on us, when comparing.
No serious testing with (ABX) has showed any difference in CD-spec’ed and higher resolution files, when exact the same files with exact the same SPL were used, has shown that the higher resolution is ‘better’.
Generally speaking higher bitrates and higher resolution is good for the recording, mixing and mastering process as well as for the processing of the audio in modern digital equipment/active speakers.
For feeding ones own system the 16/44.1 specs is more than enough.
When you hear a difference it also might be the result of different DAC’s or rather the filtering used in the DACs (e.g. the APE and your MAC).
The short version:
I’d say you are good to go with the APE, if you want to stream wirelessly from your MAC to your current setup.
Using the cable from the MAC won’t give you any benefits - it might sound different in a way that suits you better........but it certainly is not very convenient
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Hi MM
Thank you for your very concise and informative reply. Just to confirm mine is the Beosound 2300 (vertical with twin sliding doors).
So as suspected its an outdated system, incorporating a new Cambridge streamer is really a waste of time with my Pentas as they can not handle a higher bit rate.
I did think differences I can hear although very slight usually a voice can sound richer or a note sounds crisper (on acoustic music) could well be down to the Dac within my MacBook as these are supposed to be very good unit and maybe AE dac not being quite upto the same standard.
This brings me full circle with my original idea of removing my 2300 from the loop and incorporating a wifi dac wired direct to my Pentas.
Is there anything out there that offers better sound quality over the Apple express I wonder?
I really do want to avoid running a cable direct from my MacBook.
If Tidal offered a remote app running on an iPhone capable of controlling their MacBook app it would all be much easier... but they don't of course!
Before ditching the lovely and still working BS2300, you may think of how many real highres files/tracks/album exist?
Being true highres would presume, that the entire chain from the recording (including the mics), through the mixing and mastering to the delievered file is highres.
Even today - although it is possible - there are very, very few examples of this....it is a very small persentage of what is produced, that should be called highres.
As for recordings from yesteryears - in the analog age with tape recording - none should be called true highres, simply none.
As for signal to noice ratio (S/N ratio) none will exceed 16 bit - usually that could be similar to what we call 10-12 bits.
It is possible to capture frequenzies higher that the CD specs with a well maintained and adjusted analog tape machine.
However 99.9 % of what is digitized from back then draws on second or third generation of the master tapes. It is veeeery seldom that the recording companies have access to the original tapes and even then these tapes were mostly played back, re-used several times.
Please don’t think that what is offered as highres from the recording/streaming companies can be true highres.
They may make very good remasterings of older material, which can sound wonderfull.
But that has nothing to do with real highres and a well done 44.1/16 copy will easily cover anything, that has ever been in these older recordings.
One may understand that the recording companies (and the streaming services) are eager to sell all new copies to us (for more money)....after all that is what they do for a living.
But putting a good bottle of red in another bottle with a Grand Cry label on it does not make it better!
Not telling you what to do - but thinking about these things might make one searching for well recorded and mastered music instead of searching (and paying more) for socalled highres music.
Enjoy the music the way you choose - the Penta’s are nice speakers.
MM is right in the pure sense - there is very little actual Hi res music.
And by Hi res, I mean what the audiophile community refer to as super hi bit rates and DSD formats etc etc.
I wouldn't go down that rabbit hole, here or in practice.
Tidal Masters can sound a tad better than Tidal Hi-fi ( I know, I know, MM and others will say they dont), but using over the ear cans connect with USB two my MBP, there is a non-trivial difference on some of the albums I have tried.
That all said, I wouldn't obsess over getting Tidal Masters out of your Pentas.
Tidal Hi-fi sounds very good and plenty good enough.
If this is what you want out of your Pentas, and just to cut out the MBP, then B&O dont offer an integrated solution - in that there is no Tidal compliment audio master that B&O produce. Airplay will not do the first unpack of Tidal Masters, but is fine for Tidal HiFi.
While the DAC in the MBP is pretty good for a laptop, you dont have to spend much to do better, before you even get to the DACs, or DAC/ Streamer combos that cost 1-2k or higher.
The issue with most of these is that you''ll need to use their control app or a third party app to browse / control your music selection, and most seem to me to be pretty average as an experience. The alternative is to use Roon - but that requires a server (be it your Mac / standalone unit) and an annual subscription, though most Roon users and many reviewers have it as the unquestioned gold standard for the music browsing experience.
CraigMcleod: Hi MM Thank you for your very concise and informative reply. Just to confirm mine is the Beosound 2300 (vertical with twin sliding doors). So as suspected its an outdated system, incorporating a new Cambridge streamer is really a waste of time with my Pentas as they can not handle a higher bit rate. I did think differences I can hear although very slight usually a voice can sound richer or a note sounds crisper (on acoustic music) could well be down to the Dac within my MacBook as these are supposed to be very good unit and maybe AE dac not being quite upto the same standard. This brings me full circle with my original idea of removing my 2300 from the loop and incorporating a wifi dac wired direct to my Pentas. Is there anything out there that offers better sound quality over the Apple express I wonder? I really do want to avoid running a cable direct from my MacBook. If Tidal offered a remote app running on an iPhone capable of controlling their MacBook app it would all be much easier... but they don't of course!
I think I will make the most of what I have and use it for what it is. I'm by no means an audiophile as you have probably guessed end of the day the Pentas still produce a lovely rich sound to my ears anyway.
As you say many providers use their own apps Cambridge being one, to be fair it is easy to use and navigate but can become laggy to the point it displays previous song artwork and no response to screen inputs.
Maybe a separate Mac with Roon could be the answer.
CraigMcleod: Maybe a separate Mac with Roon could be the answer.
Seems that for your use case the Roon solution could be something.
How about using the money you save using Tidal Hifi instead of the Tidal ‘socalled’ Master for the Roon subscribtion!
You don’t need another MAC for this, but you’ll need an endpoint (something to play to) connected to your 2300.
I am not sure that the APE can do the job, but a simple Chrome Audio dongle surely would, if you can get one (watch out for the right audio settings there).
For controlling, choosing and exploring the music there is an app for the iPad:
Roon Remote from Roon Labs https://apps.apple.com/dk/app/roon-remote/id1014764083?l=da
The volume control ist done as usual with the 2300 - using a Beo4 (or a BeoLink 1000).
CraigMcleod:how do I connect my macbook wirelessly to my Beo 2300 and play true high res music?
Appart from the topic on "is hires, true hires and will it makes a difference?" the short answer is Airport Express. You could try this for close to nothing because they're very cheap second hand. You can use the first gen ones (Anything except A1088). If you're streaming from a computer you dont even need second gen AE to enjoy multi room. I've got the scattered all over the house feeding all kinds of old to even more old B&O things. Amongst them BS2300 and BS Ouverture. At the same time it helps the wifi coverage of the house… To me, the sound is good enough as for as my senses can tell, to very good as far as guests can say.
I have often considered the B&O Playmaker as an upgrade in sound quality, but reading on that forum told me it may not worth it as it seems to have wifi reception reliability issue. Maybe that would work for you – better DAC than AE – and they also can be found for cheap.
Anyway, the only two reasons to keep the BS2300 (to me) are easiest volume control if you have a remote and keeping a beautiful object in the room. Appart from that I can't see the point of keeping it.
Hope it helps.
Just been having a dabble with Roon this evening on a 14 day free trial very impressive! I already have a Beo4 so some potential there also
This sounds similar to my own, I also have an BS Ouverture with a pair of 6000's streaming with and AE, same as my old Century in the kitchen. Also a couple of Beo4 remotes to hand which can obviously be used in any of the rooms.
I do love the look of my 2300 sitting quietly in the corner on a tall slim wood carved pedestal, gently illuminated as a reminder it is actually functioning and not quite obsolete.