ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi,
Can you give me some opinion about HT5700/5702 with passive radiator. It's really hard to find something about it. Only short note in Beocentral and here... but when I try to find something about M70 , M75, M100 I can read that 5700 or 5702 was one of the best sounded Beovox.
Hmmm...
Marcin
BeO is like a good wine - the older the better...
That's what I found myself here and there:
- 5702 and 5700 had the same high HF2000 and medium MD500 tones. Both are Celerions the same as in Celerion Ditton 66. At that time, one of the best in class.
- 5702 had a Philips AD1056 woofer, as high class as Celerion. AD1056 has Aluminum Nickel Cobalt magnet (Alnico)
- 5700 were two types with different woofers. Early with Philips AD1056 and later with Philips AD10100 woofers. AD10100 already had a ceramic magnet. They differed slightly in frequency range. I found Philips documentation.
All types had a passive radiator (ASR) 5702 had the early model KEF BD139. Beovox 5700 had ASR Celeriona similar to Ditton.
Next question:
Two types of Beovox 5700: 6229 (1972 - April 1974) and 6253 (1972 - June 1975). 6229 with Philips AD1056 and 6253 with Philips AD10100.
Beovox 5702 had two types too: 6251 (1971 - Oct 1973) and 6257 (1971 - Jan 1975); Is it the same diffference like in 5700, in woofer ?? Earlier with alnico, later with ceramic woofer ??
Because nobody said nothing I bought one pair to test :
I have not seen a pair in the UK as although they were available, we also had the 3800 which had a bigger bass drive unit and for archaic reasons was classified as a professional speaker and did not attract purchase tax making them far cheaper! Yours look like a good pair - I am sure however that Martin will know all about these!
Peter
Hi Peter, I bought this 5702 in UK . I think it will be in my home next week.
I bought it because I used KEF 104aB and I remember this incredible "British" twitter and midtone sounds. In KEF I had not enough bass. I think that this Philips AD 1056 have more bass with the same good hi and midtones.
Well, Type 6257...In my notes are two different speakers for this type number;One is a UK model that I don't recall seeing here but seem to remember being quite identical to the other 5702s.The other is a fairly large three-way speaker with added amplifier made for use as a Studio Monitor for the danish broadcast (Danmarks Radio),using the Celestion tweeter and midrange but a 12-inch woofer and no ABR if I remember correctly, rated at 200W.
Martin
Found these in my notes:
(Not sure who took these photos).
Oooo... It's very interesting. Thanks @Dillen.
I bought standard 5702 model type 6251 serie 01 number 12063. My photo is from a seller, all drivers looks like new and are fully worked . It's early model and it should has alnico magnet (AD1056) or I'm wrong??
Marcon
It is from "Stereo review" magazine :
It is about 5700 but I hope that 572 was similar.
One more question:
Beovex 5702 has the same crossover like 6229 or like 6253 ??
and one more time me :)
I want to know why BeO produced in the same time to almost the same speaker only with different passive driver.
I have theory:
Because like @Peter said:
"we also had the 3800 which had a bigger bass drive unit and for archaic reasons was classified as a professional speaker and did not attract purchase tax making them far cheaper!"
In UK loudspeakers with 12" or bigger driver were considered for professional use and were cheaper because less tax. Beovox 5700 had 10" driver and were for home use, Beovox 5702 had 10" woofer but passve driver BD139 had 12"x8,25" and for tax was proffesional speaker.
Yesterday a courier from UK arrived with my new Beovox 5702.
Below few photo after unboxed:
Veneer on top with uncoloured spot and with few shallow scratches, but I thing that it is no problem for me. I will sand it and put new oil and beeswax. Grill cloth fabric will be replaced.
But behind grill all drivers looks better than I supposed and they just need to be wiped off the dust... and I have woofer foam dust cap..
Beovox 5702 box looks massive and bigger than M70. I put it on scale and the weight showed 25 kg.
I fill like I write photo blog
Few photo inside:
Celestion HF2000
Celestion MF500
Philips AD 10056 alnico
and tropical fishes
I look at my crossover and compared with crossover from 5702 here:
https://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/p/18102/158150.aspx#158150
and I have one resistor more. Who knows why ??
Because the fabric cloth is slightly damaged and smells of old age I replaced it
And here are next questions:
Why wooden grill has a cross ??
because old fabric was non elastic ?? or it is for drivers secure ??
In my opinion it can disturb the sound and I cut it before put new fabric
and finally
The crosses are to prevent poking of fingers into the drivers and to prevent the cloth flapping around when you play loud...
Ok. Thanks for a reply. Do you know about few different crossovers for 5702 ?? I have with resistor second one is without it.
EDIT:
Ok, I look one more time on this second crossover and... resistor is under capacitor
One more question about woofer dust cap :
@Dillen, do you think those are orginal ??
it looks like textil but in touch is soft like foam, something like neoprene
The original dustcaps fell apart many years ago.Yours are newer replacements.
I finished wooden and grill works:
I inserted wires terminals on back:
Inside:
I changed all wires from crossover to drivers:
put new pollyfill:
and replaced seal foam on KEF and other drivers:
Now I only wait for Alcap electrolytic capacitors from FalconAcoustics.
Very nice, they will bring you marvelous sound. By the way, l they stunning.
Thanks,
Yes, when I picked up those 5702 and started listen I heard beautiful hi and mid tones, much better than M70, better than my KEF 104aB, but bass was not enough compared it with M70.
I'm surprised because I only changed wires and sealed drivers/boxes but I have more bass, Now it's sounds more like my M70 but with much better mid and hi tones. Woofer play strong with precision and when 5702 play low tones I still hear amazing hi and mid. In M70 woofer is too domination.
Now I pluged Beovox 5702 on Speaker1 and M70 on Speaker2 in Beolab 5000 and I have direct compare.... and M70 were beaten on all frequences.
When I brought 5702 home:
and now:
because the king can be only one.
The whole 7-series (1700/2700/3700/4700/5700 and all the more or less updated 02-models) are excellent speakers with good quality drivers.They are from a time, where record players and amplifiers really took off qualitywise, and speakers often became the weakest link.The difference from the 1960s speakers to these is enourmous.
And I think these speakers are undervalued. I tried find info in Beoworld and I would never buy 5700/5702 based on information which I found. In my opinion it is excellent speaker with amazing hi and mid tones and great strong woofer sound.
I bought these 5702 because I read the posts of retired audio engineer a man who sold audio equipment in the USA in the 70's. Let me quote a few sentences from "few thread in one" here:
"5702 were better smoother highs, lower distortion bass and a glorious midrange that Cornwalls and Kornerhorns colored.""The ML-1c and B&O 5700 were our best Book shelf speakers, the Macs had better bass below 60 HZ but from there up the 5700 was the clear winner.""When Bose and B&W came calling try to sell their wares they all stuttered after hearing their speakers fail miserably when auditioning against the 5700. ADS/Braun, Yamaha NS 1000 and 690 speakers weren't even in the same league. Only a Symphony could compete, but didn't have the sweet highs unitil the 200Z tweeter came along, and by then big speakers were on the way out and were not popular. We kept a few 5700 pairs around as reference speakers just to keep Snell, EPI, and other sales reps honest.""The 5700 really didn't need 100 watts per channel but that said we sold a bunch with MC 2505 and MC 2105 Mac power amps.""I know the M150 was supposed to be superior to a 5700, but when connected via a B&O comparator with the levels set the same using a General radio Sound level meter and 1 KHZ octave band pink noise driven with a Mac 2505 power amps our techs and sales staff all thought the 5700 easily won using Sheffield recordings as a reference. Female vocals were more natural and the Drum track record was so much more."
Someone used it:
Visaton LTS 50 for speaker paper cone.
Martynka: "I know the M150 was supposed to be superior to a 5700...
"I know the M150 was supposed to be superior to a 5700...
Where the 5700 etc. came at a time, where speakers else were becoming the weakest link, the M150 etc. came at a time, where buyers started lookingmore at specs and numbers on papers.In the specs the M150 is superior. It's far more linear and has far better numbers.But I don't listen to the numbers or frequency graphs. I listen to what comes out of the speakers and decide if I like it or not.Perhaps that goes for you too.
Dillen:But I don't listen to the numbers or frequency graphs. I listen to what comes out of the speakers and decide if I like it or not.Perhaps that goes for you too.
Oh yes, and I not only listen, I also feel. This whole feeling creates a picture of music and decides which speakers you like and which do not.
@Dillen, do you have experience with LTS-50 ??
I aplied it and... it change everything with woofers. It changed not only sound but woofers work too. I played "Two Feet - Go *** yourself" and bass was harder and stronger than before use LTS-50. Now bass "hit in point" if you know what I mean. It is not lazy, now sounds with precision.
Before aplied Visation, the woofers were shaking. Jumped front and back even though there were no low sounds. Now there is no uncontrolled jump. It seems the woofers are standing still. Even at very low impact they seem to stand still although the bass is stronger. I will try to edit a split screen movie that shows it because I recorded the behavior before LTS.
Before:
After:
Visaton, LTS etc. Well, yes and no...It changes the T/S parameters quite drastically, so in theory the crossovers and perhaps the volume of the cabinets should be changed to suit.- Theoretically! They may actually sound better in some peoples ears.It was tried on some discoteque woofers which cracked and broke up a few months later.The cones apparently got too rigid and broke like brittle plastic.Perhaps it would be good on midrange and tweeters. I really only apply it if owners specifically ask for it.
I will observe it.
I not afraid about T/S parameter (maybe I'm stupid ) because originaly AD1056 woofers were made of plain paper like here:
BeO ( I think ) aplied something to paper cone and changed originally T/S parameter. Secound thing, BeO used two different crossovers to the same set of drivers and AD1056 woofer.
My friend has 6253 type with the same AD1056 and crossovers:
My second friend has 6229 type with the same hi and mid driver and Alnico AD1056 but has other crossover, the same like in my 5702:
In the woofer section instead of 100uF (2 x 50uF) I have 75uFIn the mid tone section instead of 3.3uF and 12uF I have 1uF tropical fish, one 2.2uF tropical fish and 20uFIn the hi tone section instead of 2uF (2 x 1uF tropical fish) and 5uF I have 1uF tropical fish, one 2.2uF tropical fish and one 8uF
Third thing, BeO use the same crossovers (both types) with AD10100 (ceramic magnet). AD1056 and AD1056 were different T/S parameter.
@Dillen, do you have my crossovers scheme or it is the same but with other value ??
I found it, 5700 (6229) and 5702 :
and one more time 5700 (6253) to compare:
My 5702 blog next chapter
I checked in crossover simulator both types:
- this is frequency response from scheme 6253 type:
and 6229 type:
and for me something is wrong with hitones. I remeber, when I rebuilded crossovers in my 104aB I connected wrongly ( - ) T27 tweeter wire to ( - ) line and I not heard hitones. Tweeter was inverted, after reconect tweeter ( + ) to line ( - ) everything sounded perfect.
Remembering this fact I invert tweeter polarity in Xsim and:
and it look better.
I looked inside my 5702 (crossover 6229 type) and BeO done the same like me in simulator. Violet tweeter wire ( + ) is connected with black woofer wire ( - ) and blue mid ( - ) wire.
it means that tweeter polarity on 6229 scheme is wrong.
I chcecked 6253 wiring too and blue mid wire ( - ) is connected with white hitones wire ( - )
Here is a comparison of the frequency characteristics of both crossovers in one diagram:
red - 6229
blue - 6253
It seems that 5700 (6229) and 5702 sounds better than 5700 (6253), so why did BeO change the crossovers ??
In "Stereo review" from 1972 we can read that: "...The system impedance was between 6 and 25 ohms" I check it and here we have impedance difference:
blue - 5253
In my opinion Bang&Olufsen put new crossover inside to make life easier for amplifier. New crossover decrease impedance peak but it decrease a little frequency response.
I done few simulation with my 6229 type crossover. When I put 50uF capacitor in place of 20uF. I decrease impedance peak and increase little bit frequency response in low frequencies:
red - 20uF capacitor
green - 50uF capacitor
hmmm... I know , it is not DIY section but do you think it will be hearable difference ??
Please keep in mind, that the cabinet, damping materials etc. are also components in the whole speaker.It can have a huge influence.
Yes, it's only simulation. Now I put new Elko Jantzen capacitor because I'm still waiting for package from U.K.
I am curious about the effect on new capacitors because in Beolab I have already changed the output capacitors.
Because I still wait for Alcap I made temporary crossover with ELKO/Jantzen:
8uF -> 8,2uF
20uF -> 22uF
75uF -> 82uF
Like I wrote in Beolab thread:
Everything I did before improved the bass, now I opened up the highs. But In the same time I changed power capacitor in Beolab 5000 and I don't know witch caps opened up this.
P.S. Package from FalconAcoustics is in Poland. A should get Alcap caps soon.
The output series capacitor is so large in capacitance, it won't have a lot of influence on the treble response.It will almost certainly have improved the damping factor though.
It means that all this changes are from Beolab after replaced power caps.
6257 really exist !!!
https://www.dba.dk/hoejttaler-bang-olufsen/id-1065169896/
Hi - Celestion HF2000Mid - Celestion HF500Low - Seas 33F-WK