ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Whenever I check forums about hifi stuff, B&O is a very controversial topic.
Let's face it, differnt brands have different philosophies.
We all know the stereotypes:
German brands like Canton or Nubert are regarded as boring or too analytical,
british speakers are only for the deaf,
and american speakers have an exagerated bass.
These are common stereotypes, but when it comes to B&O all the fanboys seem to unite and
have the tendancy to fight the bad boys of hifi: Bang olufsen:
:(
Does anyone know why this is the case?
"Why do many audiophiles hate B&O products"?Some of them wish their audiophile products looked like B&O - but audiophile products usually look like.. well.. not particularly good.There may also be some audiophiles, who like the B&O techniques, but want it to look like... well... audiophile stuff.Then there are some, who can't admit to actually liking B&O due to the risk of being made the laugh of the audiophile crowd.
Martin
B&O is not tweakable - audiophiles like to fine tune their systems and B&O just connect simply and have no adjustments. Having said that, B&O also have made some products that are really not that good and cost a lot. And of course a lot of audiophiles have not actually listened to a good B&O system.
Peter
Probably because, amongst other reasons, B&O are seen as either a design led brand / company, or more simply a style over substance company.
When B&O send very few of their products around to the big publications for testing (even where it would make sense to), so as a brand audiophiles (generally snobbish by nature too) find B&O easy to dismiss.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Beovision 7-55 MK1 red, Beolab 10 red. Beolab 50, all black. Beolab 17 broken ice. Beolab transmitter. Apple tv4 and apple express 2.
B&O hasn't ever been respected by the "audiophile" types, at least since the mid 70's when I first got into audio as a hobby. Back then they used to call them "Bang And Awfulsound." Lots of reasons:1. B&O's approach has historically been the exact opposite of the audiophile types, in that as mentioned above it's set the stuff up once and then listen to music. Too many audiophiles listen to the equipment more than the music, and without being able to constantly tweak things (different wires, etc.) there's no "hobby" there. 2. B&O has traditionally not been very forthcoming about putting their gear up for review, and also fairly opaque about what the specs were. Again, philosophically they felt, I believe, specs are less important than the fact it sounds good, but people will tend to buy on specs, even ones that don't matter. This is how you got the mid to late 70's THD wars, where a lot of makers used ever increasing amounts of global feedback in amp design to drive THD figures down, while upping the much more audible TIM distortion.3. As said, B&O has had some stuff that has been average in performance at high prices. On the other hand, in speaker design they recognized and addressed issues that a lot of designers don't pay attention to yet today, such as in their phase link speakers which were well ahead of the curve design wise. And much of what the "audiophile" community thinks actually matters in audio design has less to do with reality than with marketing fantasy.All of which is why I think that while things like the BL90 and 50 are outstanding examples of advanced thinking into what matters in speaker design, made possible due to advanced DSP processing which is finally available, pursuing them was a waste of resources, especially during the modern period when B&O is suffering business setbacks. There is no way I believe the market for these speakers is big enough to rationalize the development costs. The market is just too small, they won't really make an impact in the "audiophile" market because most won't even consider B&O, plus the megabuck speaker market has a lot of competition. As an example, when discussing the BL90 with an audiophile guy I know, he could or would not care about the processing, but was obsessing over how could the use those awful Class D amps, they should have let the user decide to use tuba amps and different wires.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Some member handles the frase: "Ban the boring". That's what I become when hearing these sayings. The same counts for people who like to say :"B&O, isn't that Philips?" Arghh. I get bored by those types.
.. and to add to that. It always ends is the same discussion..
Maybe it is simply because Bang & Olufsen isn’t and never intended to be an audiophile brand (whatever that is).
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Millemissen: Maybe it is simply because Bang & Olufsen isn’t and never intended to be an audiophile brand (whatever that is). MM
Must be frustrating, seeing that it just looks so good.
Hmmm...I typed a longish response and it says it's in moderation. Maybe someone will free it.
Jeff: Hmmm...I typed a longish response and it says it's in moderation. Maybe someone will free it.
Done! (Above).
Jeff:
I think the term audiophile is used differently by different groups of people.
In 1976 when I walked into my local record store (that had just started to add stereo components for sale) I was completely taken back when I saw a Beogram 4002 for the first time. I never knew such a thing existed. I had to have one.
Looking back through Stereo Review and Audio magazine publications from that period there was barely a mention of any Bang & Olufsen products. Since those were my main source of audio information at the time it is no wonder I hadn't seen a Beogram 4002 before. I saved some money, sold my trusty ELAC Miracord 50H and I have only owned Bang & Olufsen turntables since. I am an avid record collector and have always bought the best equipment I could afford but I have no idea if I am an audiophile or not. I don't really care either :-). I know what I need and like and let that drive what audio components I bought.
In the Midwest and Southwest USA where I lived it was only the high end audio stores that carried Bang & Olufsen products so I'm not sure it is valid to say audiophile types didn't like Bang & Olufsen. However, I have seen some articles posted where self proclaimed audiophiles do look down on B&O.But then they are probably the types that purchase these types of products - $1200 power cable, $245 jumper cables, $400 interconnect cables, $899 isolation feet, $5000 power conditioners, and so on and so on. Those aren't even actual audio components! I apologize if anyone has bought any of those :-(.
I remember one thing, besides the beautiful looks, of the Beogram 4002 back in 1976 that sold me was the floating suspension. No need for $899 isolation feet with the Beogram.
In catching the Beovirus in the 2000's I have had the opportunity to restore and enjoy a lot of Bang & Olufsen components now that I never had the chance to hear before. The styling, performance and integration sets them apart from other components of their era. Their design, function and sound has held up over time and now people are wanting to have working, vintage Bang & Olufsen in their homes again. That is testimony to great audio equipment for sure.
-sonavor
beolion: Jeff: Well written Jeff. And I also believe that bno on the old days was more focused on design over sound and it was not until BL5 and BL9 that we saw a change in the approach. Sad that audiophiles won’t give BL90 a chance.
Well written Jeff. And I also believe that bno on the old days was more focused on design over sound and it was not until BL5 and BL9 that we saw a change in the approach.
Sad that audiophiles won’t give BL90 a chance.
Unfortunately that suggests saying Ford should be considered an elite automotive company because they make the GT. Ford does include B&O/Harman audio systems. however.
I came to B&O from B&W speakers and used to have this fancy auditions at a high end store bringing your own amplifier and cables....
This is just a different world as other also have pointed out. I tried to listen to BL50 or BL90 to get convinced to pull the plug to move on from my BL5.
No chance, as the setups in all B&O shops I know are not setup in the way to experience a 25k+ speaker setup in the right way. Audiphile's will not like to listen to music streamed by a Beosound Core on Deezer standard, not talking about the room setup/treatment. And also nothing to compare...
Does this matter? Not for me, I know what I want, I will not go back to the "ugly" speaker life anymore..but may need to go for mix setup for Atmos/Auro home cinema setup.
To answer the question I would suggest 'all of the above' here. All points made here are excellent.
Vähintään yhdeksänkymmentä prosenttia suomalainen!
I would guess the vast majority of the folks on this forum that enjoy their B&O do so because of the quality of sound as much as the ease of use and design aesthetics. Maybe we could consider ourselves audiophiles of a sort? I can honestly say that's the case for me. Like others, I was starting down the traditional audiophile line of finding top ranked audiophile brand products and swapping them out every few years in mixed-matched systems. I always wondered which component is the weak link that needed to be replaced? Then I discovered B&O and am quite satisfied with the results of a well designed system meant to work together and be easily expanded. If the sound and video quality was not up to par, I would have certainly walked away.
It is also interesting to note the BL90 was very well regarded by Stereophile magazine (a bastion of audiophiles) and is on their recommended components list. Who's to say if B&O they would not have been more highly regarded if they sent more of their top of the line equipment for review in the past?
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
Back when it first came out, Peter Aczel of "The Audio Critic" tested the BL5 and raved about it, it made it to his most recommended list along with one other speaker which was much tweakier. Of course, his recommendation did B&O no good with the audiophile crowd as they all hate Aczel because he was a big proponent of controlled ABX testing an rubbed the Golden Ears noses in it a lot, no love lost between him and the high enders.
As for car stereos, my new car has a Harman/B&O system. It sounds good, but to be honest it sounds exactly like every other car I test drove with a Harman system in it, whether it was branded Harman, B&O, or Levinson.
Jeff: As for car stereos, my new car has a Harman/B&O system. It sounds good, but to be honest it sounds exactly like every other car I test drove with a Harman system in it, whether it was branded Harman, B&O, or Levinson.
The most common prejudices I hear about Bang & Olufsen is "style over substance" and "laughable sound quality".My personal experience over all the years: If substance means reliability and quality the prejudices unfortunately are right. Of all my audio- and video stuff from different brands Bang & Olufsen is the one that fails the most with technical defects in an unnecessary time frame.Combining Bang & Olufsen with other brands can really enhance the audio-video experience plus the comfort at home! The (hidden) flexibility is another pro argument for B&O.The rant about sound quality: I bet most of the people didn't ever listen to a proper Bang & Olufsen sound system. :-) I love and collect Bang & Olufsen products since years (except the ugly Kvadrat-stuff) but the build quality and reliability tempers the delight.No matter if they consider themselves a luxury or high end brand: The quality (and service) issues must be sorted out! Imagine your Bentley being 20 times a year in the workshop while your Volkswagen Golf only needs to go there once a year. There's something wrong then...
To exaggerate a little: If you buy Bang & Olufsen it is like buying an oldtimer; you really need spare parts to keep the love alive. ;)
I know - he talks about himself as a ‘recovering audiophile’.
Maybe that is the reason why he has Beolab speakers amongst his favourites.
https://youtu.be/7zJQxY99kwo
Fast forward to 10:00.....if you are in a hurry.
Millemissen:I know - he talks about himself as a ‘recovering audiophile’. Maybe that is the reason why he has Beolab speakers amongst his favourites.
beolion: Jeff: Well written Jeff. And I also believe that bno on the old days was more focused on design over sound and it was not until BL5 and BL9 that we saw a change in the approach.
Well - I do not quite agree with that ... B&O had made quite a few "audiophile" products before that. (Although most of the audiophile community would never admit it).First of all the Beolab 5000 system from the late 60's. Then there was the Beovox Uniphase series through the 70's and early 80's - especially the M100's stand out from the 70's range. The later series with "split frets" S80-S/MC120-M150 and MS150 etc. were really top quality "box-speakers".Some open-minded audiophiles who have dared to listen to them are really impressed by the sound -and even more impressed when they see the build quality: The cabinets and especially the high quality speaker-units.The Beogram 8000/8002 was really something special with high quality pick-ups (the MMC series) - but they were offcourse not good enough for hard-core audiophiles, who like to sit and adjust, tweak and adjust endlessly.Then there was the Beocord 9000 - a top-quality cassette recorder, that was as good as (if not better than) a Nikamichi that cost twice as much as the Beocord. (Yes - back then at least SOME audiophiles could use cassette tapes) The Beomaster 4400 and the smaller "brothers" 1400/1500 were really well build quality receivers.-and then there was the Pentas.
-so B&O had paid a lot of attention to sound quality over the years.. and managed to combine it with good design - which hard-core audiophiles just hate...
I agree with you Steffan. The speakers you mention were all very good, as good as anything else in their class at the time and better than a lot of speakers of the day. B&O has been all over the map, sometimes more "high end" and sometimes more design over performance, but always IMO good performance/sound, if not especially cost effective.
I've been to the Hifi exihibition in Hamburg. Most of the so called High end brands are small companys.
Their speakers are very expensive and in most cases they use scan speak or vifa chassis.
The audiophil customers only watch out for the chassis. The more expensive, the better .... is the idea.
Not focussing on the results.
So, if B&O doesn't use these high end chassis they must be bad, these audio-hools know for sure without trying.
People don't care that these mini manufactors don't have the technical skills, B&O has.
The small high end brands just combine expensive chassis and that's it.
B&O has the famous cube for more than 30 years, they know what they're doing.
They have a great knowledge and do what they do on purpose.
One of the simplest way to define who you are and what you like is by stating who you aren't and what you hate.
This is not a new idea - nor is it mine. I first read about it in a book by Allan Bloom back about 20 years ago... Although his assertion was that, by being open-minded and accepting of others' opinions, you lose confidence in your own self. Personally, I think that this conclusion is a load of codswallop (assuming that codswallop is distributed in loads.... perhaps it's available by the esterling or the peck...)
However, one could be more nuanced and talk about the multiple dimensions of a product. If you are buying a car based only on its top speed, then it's an easy selection process because the decision is based on one dimension that is measurably true at the moment you pass over the cash (although it may not be true the next day when another car is on the market). However, if you are looking for something that balances top speed with acceleration (both from 0 - 50 km/h AND from 50 - 100 km/h) and comfort and baggage space and safety and fuel economy and range and visual design and the number of cup holders and USB connectors and Bluetooth and steering wheel heaters, then it's not only difficult to choose (due to the weighting in importance of the various dimensions) but difficult to justify (because the person you're talking to might have different weighting factors on the same attributes).
However, if you find someone who says "all products made by that brand are bad" (or good) then that person probably isn't thinking multi-dimensionally... otherwise the statement would have been much more specific...
Of course, I'm not saying that all audiophiles (whether self-professed or not) are one-dimensional... I would have to be much more specific...
I am, however, saying that most products are to be judged multi-dimensionally... This is true both on a macroscopic scale (e.g. this speaker looks good AND sounds good - both of which are things that are important to me...) and a microscopic scale (e.g. I like the way this speaker sounds both on-axis in the living room AND off-axis in the kitchen, both of which are places where I use my ears...).
Or, perhaps this prejudice is a result of the Dunning-Kruger effect - but that would just be mean... Maybe Flanders and Swan's Song of Reproduction is a better commentary...
Cheers-geoff
I wonder how this feeling did evolve over time.
I mean, in the 90's/2000's, ok, it was easy to dismiss any little thin fancy beolab against big, sturdy, traditional speaker boxes.
But before, speakers used to look the same. maybe the flat design of the centers may rise some suspicions but still…
And nowadays when the form factor has to be "disruptive" (like Devialet), maybe it may make people concentrate on sound and not device?
So ok the "style over substance" still is strongly around, but I also see, lot of people buying (expensive) Beoplay stuff without even knowing what "Beocenter" means.
Once you've (and "I've") made up your mind about something, it's difficult to undo that decision.
There are people who believe that analogue is better than digital because they heard a CD in 1983 and it didn't sound as good as vinyl - so that was that... Of course, a CD in 1983 only had about 12 bits working reasonably well, and suffered from aliasing in the recording, and dither hadn't been invented yet - so there was quantisation error, and so on and so on... Fast forward to 2020 and some of those issues have been improved upon - so it might be time to re-evaluate long-held opinions...
I have the same problem - if I eat sushi at a Japanese restaurant and suffer from food poisoning later that night, it's difficult for me to eat there ever again - even if it changes management and becomes a pizza place...
Cheers-g
My tuppence worth is that it's easy to let the design (and cost) cloud judgement. I love my M100 speakers and doubt i would ever sell them or upgrade them - but some audiophiles slate them. I used to love my BG4002 but after spending a load of money servicing it, new stylus etc it still kept playing up - in the end I bought a Linn Sondek and that works perfectly and I can change the cartridge if I feel like experimenting, it also feels more solid and is nice to use - even if it is manual. On some sites the BG4002 gets rave reviews for it's design and sound quality and the linn classed as old school boring. I use a modern Yamaha receiver with the M100's and Linn because I like the retro 70's chunky design, in any case there isn't a new B&O system that will drive passive speakers, have internet radio, streaming and a phono input. To me it works and is a simple enjoyable way to listen to music - am I an audiophile? no, but I do appreciate design and it doesn't always have to be B&O, as much as I love the brand and design of the equipment.
One thing I have noticed though is that if you take the upgrade path of audiophiles, you will be constantly changing and looking for the next upgrade and never happy. So at the end of the day does it matter if Audiophiles berate our beloved brand - No, because they don't have to live with it, listen to it and most importantly hand over their hard earned cash for it.
In a danish forum I've read once that B&O asked peerless for a special speaker.
Peerless engineered a driver only for B&O, but B&O didn't take the speaker and is using instead a cheap
korean speaker.
I really don't know if the difference is great in quality. But I can understand, that some danish are angry with B&O now.
Anyway you can achieve brilliant results with cheap drivers for sure.
Just to mention the legendary RFT BR 50 (Gethain) speakers. A cheap but brilliant 3 way monitor.
Interesting article from Trusted Reviews on B&O:
https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/is-bang-olufsen-an-audiophile-brand-the-answers-tricky-even-for-its-execs-3995741/amp
Jacques
People who like audiophil speakers want something that looks this way.
One example, the new JBL 100 classic:
Maße & Gewicht: (64 x 39 x 37 cm), 26,7 kg/Stück Empfindlichkeit: 90 dB bei 2,83 V/m
Among the pearls there have definitely been Swine which have contributed to the brands tainted reputation.
Ban boring signatures!
But the Lab50 is over £20k new and the JBL's around £4K so not a very good comparison - now if you compared the JBL or Yamaha with an equivalent new B&O type speaker then I'd be interested in how they sound.
Interesting though that the 70's JBLs and Yamaha are worth quite a bit more than the M150 - they seem to go for £2k whereas I would have thought £400 - £500 for the M150 because of the size. Again I'd love to compared the JBL's and Yamaha's with my M100-2's which I think sound superb for the money and certainly nowhere near the price of second hand JBL's and Yamaha's. If the sound quality was 4 times better then I would be tempted
Has anyone heard the JBL's and Yamaha's against B&O M150 / M100 / M75?
New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0
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Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Interesting that no one noticed the big difference. Open your eyes ladies and gentlemen!!
Yamaha and JBL just refined the concept of an passive speaker, It's just a box.
B&O has active speakers, and do they look like 40 years ago? NO!!
A completly different design. Now take a second look at the picture!