ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I've been reviewing the Technical Sound Guide and found how to use the settings in my BeoSystem 4 to redirect LFE channels used for height to a speaker assigned the "Ceiling" role. However, I can't seem to find any SACD or DVD-A titles that have this feature. Does anyone know of any SACD or DVD-A titles that use LFE for height? I haven't been able to find a list of them.
I guess - if anyone - Geoff Martin should know.....he is the one, who added this feature to the BSys4 sound options.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
I don't know if there's a list - but many/most/all of the Telarc and Chesky multichannel discs from the "old days" had this feature.
Telarc's 1812 Overture on SACD is one example.
Note that BIS multichannel discs were released in 5.0 - so there was nothing on the LFE channel.
If you do a search for something like "multichannel lfe height" then you'll find old pages where people complain about this - sometimes with examples.
Cheers-g
Indeed, MM. I checked on his site and couldn't find any test tracks for it.
Thanks, Geoff!
I have a follow-up question if you don't mind. The Technical Sound Guide indicates that when this feature is used that the LFE channel is redirected to speakers assigned as "Ceiling" as the role. Is this the only role that accepts this channel, or do the other height roles get this channel as well?
Also, Is this the true and only purpose of the "Ceiling" role, or can the "Ceiling" role also be used in setups where the LFE channel is not redirected to "Ceiling"?
That was fast, wasn’t it
beojeff: Also, Is this the true and only purpose of the "Ceiling" role, or can the "Ceiling" role also be used in setups where the LFE channel is not redirected to "Ceiling"?
I might have an answer there....even if it not the best and most complete..
In the first case (when redirecting something), you just take advantage of something, that is already in the recording AND the ability of the sound processor to place it where it rightly belongs (because mastered so).
In the other case/cases you use the TrueImage processing to upmix any content to match your given speaker layout (including ceiling speakers).....could be a 2 channel aka stereo recording, but also a 5.1/7.1 recording.
Some liike it native/as is - others like the more engaging sound field, when upmixing.
IMO it also depends on the source....for some sources it't fine, for others the nun-upmixed way might be better.
Millemissen: beojeff: Also, Is this the true and only purpose of the "Ceiling" role, or can the "Ceiling" role also be used in setups where the LFE channel is not redirected to "Ceiling"? I might have an answer there....even if it not the best and most complete.. In the first case (when redirecting something), you just take advantage of something, that is already in the recording AND the ability of the sound processor to place it where it rightly belongs (because mastered so). In the other case/cases you use the TrueImage processing to upmix any content to match your given speaker layout (including ceiling speakers).....could be a 2 channel aka stereo recording, but also a 5.1/7.1 recording. Some liike it native/as is - others like the more engaging sound field, when upmixing. IMO it also depends on the source....for some sources it't fine, for others the nun-upmixed way might be better. MM
Actually, the B&O Technical Sound Guide specifically says that when using LFE for height that the channel is send to a speaker assigned the "Ceiling" role, which is one of the roles available in the speaker role setup.
Geoff:
I ask about the use of the "Ceiling" role because I've been using a single speaker high in the rear assigned the "Ceiling" role while using a single speaker high in the front assigned the "Centre Height" role for movies. Perhaps I've been using the "Ceiling" role incorrectly if it's actually just meant for the LFE height? There's so little documentation about this.
beojeff: Thanks, Geoff! I have a follow-up question if you don't mind. The Technical Sound Guide indicates that when this feature is used that the LFE channel is redirected to speakers assigned as "Ceiling" as the role. Is this the only role that accepts this channel, or do the other height roles get this channel as well? Also, Is this the true and only purpose of the "Ceiling" role, or can the "Ceiling" role also be used in setups where the LFE channel is not redirected to "Ceiling"?
If you turn on the "LFE to Ceiling" function, then the incoming LFE channel will be connected ONLY to the output with the "Ceiling" speaker role. So, if you have a subwoofer that has a Subwoofer Speaker Role, it will not get anything from the LFE input unless the bass management is turned on - and then it's bass managed from the Ceiling output.
The only other time you will get a signal out of an output with a Ceiling Speaker Role is when you are upmixing with TrueImage. In this case, the True Image upmixer is creating a signal designed to be sent to a Ceiling loudspeaker (regardless of the number of channels in the input signal). In this case, if Bass management is turned on, then the ceiling output will also be bass managed to the most capable loudspeakers in the configuration - however, since the signal is derived in an upmixer, that bass is probably already coming out of another output channel anyway... (this depends on the relative phases and amplitudes of the low frequency content in the incoming audio channels... which is complicated.... :-) )
hope this helps.
-g
My 1812 Overture SACD arrived today and I tried playing it in my Oppo BDP-103 set to PCM. The Oppo source is distributed via an Atlona 4x4 matrix. Very oddly, I can get sound on my BeoVision 10 and two BeoSystem 3s. However, I get no sound at all on my BeoSystem 4. Movies on the Oppo, however, do produce sound on the BeoSystem 4. I've tried different speaker groups and still got no sound from any of the speaker groups. Could there be a setting the Beosystem 4 that needs to be adjusted to play SACD music?
beojeff: My 1812 Overture SACD arrived today and I tried playing it in my Oppo BDP-103 set to PCM. The Oppo source is distributed via an Atlona 4x4 matrix. Very oddly, I can get sound on my BeoVision 10 and two BeoSystem 3s. However, I get no sound at all on my BeoSystem 4. Movies on the Oppo, however, do produce sound on the BeoSystem 4. I've tried different speaker groups and still got no sound from any of the speaker groups. Could there be a setting the Beosystem 4 that needs to be adjusted to play SACD music?
Hi,
I assume that you've set the HDMI output to LPCM and the SACD conversion to PCM as well (on my 105, that's two different menu items in the same page). I assume that this is true, because it's working on your BV10 and BS3.
Two questions:
- Are you able to test this with a direct HDMI connection to the BS4 - bypassing the Atlona?
- What is the setting of the "Coaxial / Optical Output" sampling rate selection?
Cheers
Thank you again, Geoff.
When I tried a direct HDMI connection to the BeoSystem 4 bypassing the matrix, I got sound.It seems it must be an issue with HDMI handshaking and EDID with the matrix.
The height channel was most notable with the cannons in the 1812 Overture. It makes me wish that B&O had worked out a way to offer Dolby Atmos on the BeoSystem 4. Perhaps even if it meant having the owner paying extra to have a key to unlock the feature.
After getting sound with a direct connection, I added the HDMI connection to the matrix using the 2nd HDMI output of the Oppo player. Having done that, I get sound through both the direct connection as well as through the matrix. However, once I remove the direct connection, I no longer get SACD sound through the matrix. This leaves me to believe that it's an EDID handshaking issue with the matrix.
beojeff: This leaves me to believe that it's an EDID handshaking issue with the matrix.
This leaves me to believe that it's an EDID handshaking issue with the matrix.
Howdy,
My suspicion is that there's a sampling rate issue going on here. Here's my theory:
For DSD signals, an HDMI source (in this case, the Oppo) has to convert the signal to LPCM if the HDMI sink (in this case, the BeoSystem 4) cannot decode that format. This is what happens when you play DSD from the Oppo to the BeoSystem 4 (either from an SACD or a DSD file). This therefore means that the Oppo has to choose a sampling rate for the conversion.
The BSys4 doesn't support 88.2 or 176.4 kHz on the HDMI input*. So, if the matrix does (and if it's "just" a matrix, then it probably supports everything, since it doesn't really have to do anything...), then it could be that the Oppo is spitting out the signal at one of those sampling rates (probably 176.4, since it's the highest, and a 44.1 variant is easiest for DSD, since it's based on a bitrate that's a multiple of 44.1**), and the BSys4 therefore goes silent... (I BELIEVE that Oppo converts DSD to a 44.1 variant. The Cambridge player that I have here converts to a 48 kHz variant...)
By making a parallel connection from the Oppo's second HDMI to the BSys4, then the EDID from the BSys4 forces the Oppo to spit out a compatible sampling rate that works for everyone.
A guess at a possible solution that could be worth trying:
It COULD be that if you set the "Coaxial / Optical Output" sampling rate limit to 44.1 or 48 kHz, then it would work through the matrix without the second HDMI connection. On many devices, the HDMI is "just" a transport for the LPCM signal that is also sent to the Coax or Optical output (albeit with more channels, of course...) So, limiting the sampling rate of the Coax output will also limit the sampling rate of the HDMI output. Since the BSys4 supports 44.1 & 48 kHz, then this would be okay (assuming that you don't belong to the Church of High Resolution, and you would therefore consider this to be a sin against nature and everything that is right about the universe...). Note that I don't know if this is true on the Oppo - but it's a pretty common behaviour on devices with multiple digital outputs. Running a device at multiple sampling rates simultaneously is potentially complicated - and many devices avoid this.
Cheers-geoff
* but it does support 44.1, 48, 96 & 192 kHz. Note that this is only for the HDMI input. The Home Media player is different, since it uses a different signal path.
** Typically DSD releases are originally recorded at 352.8 kHz / 24-bit LPCM. This makes it easier to do the mixing, editing, equalization, compression, mastering, etc. etc... the final LPCM master is then converted to a DSD variant for release. The old Telarc recordings are a little different... the original ones were recorded using a Soundstream running at 50 kHz, and those masters were sample-rate converted... The nice thing is that Telarc was pretty honest about how things were recorded - so you just need to look inside the booklet to get the technical info on the recording equipment.
beojeff: After getting sound with a direct connection, I added the HDMI connection to the matrix using the 2nd HDMI output of the Oppo player. Having done that, I get sound through both the direct connection as well as through the matrix. However, once I remove the direct connection, I no longer get SACD sound through the matrix. This leaves me to believe that it's an EDID handshaking issue with the matrix.
Forgot to mention:
If you have a Macintosh, there's a cheap way to check all of this:
Connect your Mac's HDMI output to the device you want to check, and open the "Audio MIDI Setup.app"
You can then select the HDMI device from the list on the left hand side of the panel. On the right hand side, you can see the list of available sampling rates as a drop-down menu next to "Format".
If you do this with your matrix and the BeoSystem 4, you'll see what the EDID handshake is telling the Mac - and therefore the Oppo.