ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I realise this is very niche but a few years ago, I was in a pro audio dealers room filled with mixing desks, converters, old Studers etc etc. The room was setup with multiple studio monitors and connected to a Merging multichannel DAC playing multichannel DSD files. That was the closet that I’d ever got to real music. The echoes, reverberations, colours surrounding me was unbelievable. The 3D direction of sound was convincing, digestible and thrilling. At the time, I was auditioning all sorts of stuff around the country (exclusively 2-channel) and I decided that moving to natively recorded multichannel to multichannel reproduction might be a step too far and far from home- friendly with speakers everywhere. I opted for the best of Bang & Olufsen BL90 which I must say has not disappointed one bit. I have an exquisite sounding system and am a very lucky boy indeed. However, fast forward and that memory of genuine multichannel has caught up with me.
Has anyone experimented with genuine multichannel or heard it?
i know Geoff mentioned that he had an OPPO capable of doing multichannel and if anyone else had experienced with the multichannel output?
I can’t buy help think that aside from 99.9999 of the population where a mono soundock is the norm, but for those that desire the ultimate experience, this might be the ultimate musical destination?
Can multichannel be done with B&O?
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Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
I've played the 1812 Overture SACD through my BeoSystem 4. You actually change the setting so that the LFE channel is used for height via speakers set at the "ceiling" role. There is a warning on the SACD to play it with the volume lower than usual until you hear just how loud the canons are shooting overhead!
I've heard multichannel music at various times, the potential is definitely there, the problem, as with the original quadrophonic, is getting source material. I have a CD of the music from Blade Runner, by Vangelis, recorded only in Dolby Pro Logic, not even Dolby Digital, just simple Pro Logic, and on a decent surround 5.1 system it sounds just jaw droppingly stunning. I had at one time a demo DVD-A disc, full 5.1 digital, which included some Diana Krall and Donald Fagen stuff that would just send chills down your spine, the Krall especially was like you were there in the venue with her.
Back in the day Yamaha was really into pushing multi-channel, they had a lot of processors/receivers that had very advanced surround processing to go from 2 channel to multi channel, using DSP algorithms based on measurements of real the venues. They'd take a very large array of mics into various places, jazz clubs, concert halls, etc. and measure them and use that as a basis for expanding the 2 channel audio up to 5 channels, or more, plus they had a lot of generic and user adjustable settings. Over time the number of options got less and less, I suppose no one really was using the full capability and were unwilling to pay for it. Also, I've heard these before, and all too often they were setup with the surround channels set way too high in volume, which made the whole experience more "gee wow" rather than musical and it got on your nerves quickly. Ideally you should not be aware of the surround channels, just have a feeling of more involvement and envelopment.
But then, there's a reason this goes nowhere even though good multichannel has the potential to be orders of magnitude more effective at capturing music than additional high end wires or such, it's hard to find people these days willing to even implement a proper 2 channel stereo rig. Look at the proliferation of soundbars and single point stereo speakers (new Balance for example), not many people are willing to do what's needed for truly exceptional sound, and without a base of support no one is going to record for it. It's a chicken and egg thing, no content, no thing to listen to, no one will buy multichannel rigs, so no reason to record for them.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Yes, multichannel recordings can sound very impressive through a B&O setup. My system uses BeoLab 90s as fronts, Lab 50s as rears and a Lab 10 as centre. My system is capable of playing 5.1 Blu-rays, DVD-As, DVDs, SACDs and downloads as well as quadraphonic vinyl and eight-track cartridges.
I’m trying to figure out how to shift into multichannel...
What processes and distributes the multichannel?
seethroughyou: Can multichannel be done with B&O?
Yes!
Enjoyed it at home with Sony S500 Blu-Ray and Denon 2500 Blu-Ray Transports through a Beosystem 3. Works fine and sounds good.
A VERY good recording to test it is the Blu-Ray "Quiet Winter Night" from Hoff Ensemble. The first time I heard it was a demonstration with multiple professional GENELEC monitor speakers and it was like a live experience. It sounded like I was right there within the church where they recorded it as the speakers where "acoucistcaly invisible" (Geoff, please correct me if I used the wrong term; I currently have no better description). Great experience!Another recommendation (but I don't know if they do multi channel as well): Stockfish records in Germany. They are like scientists to achieve the highest quality recordings.
seethroughyou:Can multichannel be done with B&O?
The way to go is using a BV as sound processor. BV11 / Beosystem 4 work nice because the Homemedia app of the system can handle streaming (DLNA) multichannel files.
But also the Eclipse and Harmony will do fine. But for now you will need a media player suchs as an Oppo bluray to play multichannel music.
I use two BV with multiple BL speakers to listen to multichannel DVDA, SACD, Blurays, Streaming files (WAV, FLAC, DSD)
seethroughyou: I’m trying to figure out how to shift into multichannel... What processes and distributes the multichannel?
I agere completely Winther Carolpa.....in fact Thatcher is Wat a Bang & Olufsen tv has been able to do nok for decades.
If you want to dive into the World of multichannel music, you can get lots of tips and inspiration here
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHccMPbwt4dG9DP7jG-8yZQ
There is plenty of music out there.
If you want to listen to something, that was intended from the start as multichannel, here you go:
https://www.itrax.com/
The recordings of Mark Waldrep are excellent in any aspects.
Of course it is cruzial that you have a well configured multichannel/5.1 setup.
Wirh the B&O tv's/sound processors and the BL speakers - especially the later ones - you have a good starting point.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Sorry....I noticed too late that 'autocorrect' was enabled on this devices ;-((
If you have the time for a rabbit-hole with one expert's opinion, use your favorite internet search engine to look for "floyd toole multi-channel surround music" or similar. I don't remember if he mentioned specific discs, but he definitely posted pictures of his own home setup.
Floyd Toole's book is the bible for anyone, who is seriously interested in audio (and multi channel audio).
Here is one source for it:
https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering-dp-113892136X/dp/113892136X/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=
Agreed, but that's "heavy lifting" whereas Toole's anecdotal responses in various forums are easy reading and have interesting tidbits as well. He or Kal Rubenstein (author of "Music In The Round" column in Stereophile magazine) have probably already been read by the OP, but mentioning them here just in case, and for future searchers...
Videos like this conversation between Gene and Matt from Audioholics indeed can give further guidance in what is needed for setting up a room for multichannel audio.....highly recommended!
https://youtu.be/shHY7EHY4MA
Please also notice the link to the mentioned article from Dr Toole.
@trackbeo
Sure, but I wanted to mention his book, because it is proof that this guy talks and advices from a long life of research.
You simply have to know of Dr Toole because a lot of 'rational audiophiles' are referring to (and build upon) his work constantly.
What other speakers would you recommend for the rest of the multichannel?
Beolab 3s instantly spring to mind for their focused acoustic lenses.
I’m not sure I want a Beovision in the room due to space and aesthetics. Can the Beosystem operate without a screen or should I get an AVR?
- You could use a Beosystem 3 or 4 and connect it to a small control display and hide it e.g. in a rack and only use it if you want to setup s.th. on the Beosystem. That way you have no Beovision in the room. There are 7" inch HDMI displays for filming:https://www.amazon.com/Lilliput-Full-Monitor-Camera-Assist/dp/B074SGNC2X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=liliput&qid=1593839755&sr=8-1
- For multichannel music listening the speakers should be equal to have a homogenous sound experience. So a pair of Beolab 90 and a pair of Beolab 3 seem an unbalanced combination for your purpose. Better prepare your family for a second set of Beolab 90.
A small V1-32 will be fine!
And I don’t agree with TWG - (depending on your room) a set of the BL3’s would be fine, if you are not able/willing to buy or place bigger speakers there...........as long as you use a BSys4-based product with its processing capacities.
You should also create some speaker groups just for SACD:
1. Most multi-channel discs do not use the LFE, so a speaker group should be adjusted accordingly.
2. Some discs use the LFE channel to send height information. In such cases, the LFE should be re-directed to a speaker assigned the "ceiling" role.
3. Some discs use the center channel for height. Thus, this speaker group should have the center channel sent to a height speaker.
You need to read the liner notes to know what speaker configuration is needed.
New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0
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Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.
Well, I spent an hour with a helpful dealer and tried to get a newly bought Sony UBP-1100es to read the SACD multichannel layer and output multichannel PCM down an HDMI cable to their Beosystem 4 but it didn't produce any sound. I will have to return this SACD player on eBay.
Can anyone recommend a tried and tested SACD player that can output multichannel PCM through HDMI to Beosystem 4 please ?
Oppo 103/105 - Oppo 203/205 (or the equivalent Cambridge ones)
seethroughyou:Sony UBP-1100es
[Auto]: Outputs DSD signal from HDMI OUT jack when playing Super Audio CD & DSD format file (if the connected device also supports DSD). Outputs LPCM signal from HDMI OUT jack when playing Super Audio CD & DSD format file (if the connected device does not support DSD). [Off]: Outputs PCM signals from HDMI OUT jack when playing Super Audio CD and DSD format file.
and:
[Downmix] [Surround]: Outputs audio signals with surround effects. Select this when connecting an audio device that supports Dolby Surround (Pro Logic) or DTS Neo:6. [Stereo]: Outputs audio signals without surround effects. Select this when connecting an audio device that does not support Dolby Surround (Pro Logic) or DTS Neo:6
[Super Audio CD Playback Layer] [Super Audio CD]: Plays the Super Audio CD layer. [CD]: Plays the CD layer.
[Super Audio CD Playback Channel] [DSD 2ch]: Plays the 2ch area. [DSD Multi]: Plays the multi-channel area
So hdmi on [Auto] and downmix on [Surround] and layer on [Super Audio CD] and area on [DSD Multi] one would expect the Sony will play audible SACD surround on the Beosystem 4
Millemissen: I agere completely Winther Carolpa.....in fact Thatcher is Wat a Bang & Olufsen tv has been able to do nok for decades.
MM - I think that is your best posting ever! At first, I was actually trying to figure out what you were talking about - and then I caught up...
-g
seethroughyou: B&O dealer rung B&O tech and they said Beosystem 4 can’t receive PCM multichannel over HDMI and when I showed them the Beoworld messages above they didn’t know what to say except repeat it doesn’t work..
B&O dealer rung B&O tech and they said Beosystem 4 can’t receive PCM multichannel over HDMI and when I showed them the Beoworld messages above they didn’t know what to say except repeat it doesn’t work..
Just a part from the BS4 servicemanual. Don't know whether the software has been updated without, but even my BS3mk3 has PCM7.1 over hdmi.
Hi,
I believe that the problem is one of sampling rates. The Beosystem 4 / Beoplay V1 / Beovision 11 etc. are incompatible with LPCM on HDMI at 88.2 or 176.4 kHz. This means that you have to find a disc player that can convert the multichannel SACD layer to LPCM at either 44.1 kHz or at 48/96/192 kHz.
Many players will convert DSD to 88.2 or 176.4 since this is an easy decimation. Sometimes, the player will give the option to set a maximum sampling rate to 44.1 kHz. Some other players will give you the option of choosing a 48 kHz multiple - or they'll get the sampling rate list from the EDID data in the HDMI handshake.
My guess is that the player you tried didn't work because it was outputting at either 88.2 or 176.4 kHz - or sending out the DSD bitstream.
However, I listen to multichannel SACD almost daily via an Oppo 105 and an HDMI connection to a Beovision 11 (to either BL90 + BL20 or BL90 + BL3).
Ceers
-geoff
seethroughyou:Sadly, Oppo discontinued and the only odd rare Oppo used turns up at silly money and can’t vouch if it works or not as sold over EBay.
https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/audio-tv-en-foto/blu-ray-spelers-en-blu-ray-recorders/m1597673260-oppo-bdp-105-eu-blu-ray-speler.html?c=08c285449651fa109c354bbabe740c1b&previousPage=lr
I have a 7.0.0 surround sound system using (2) BL 5, (1) BL 7.4, and (4) BL3. I have not yet gotten into ATMOS.
I do not use a B & O preamp. To the best of my knowledge, there is not a B & O system that has an easy setup for accounting for speaker placement and distance from listener.
I advise getting a preamp/processor that has Audyssey or similar means for adjusting the levels and frequency response for the various speakers. My preamp is old (Integra DHC 80.3). With this preamp is a microphone with long cord that plugs into the preamp. Then, through on-screen menus, the user can make some general speaker selections. Depending on the preamp, there can be one or several microphone locations that the preamp can take measurements from. I locate the microphone at the top of the seat backs of the chairs.
The preamp will then emit signals to each speaker in turn while measuring the tested speaker's response. After all testing has been completed, the preamp will adjust frequency response, delay times, and levels for each speaker.
I arranged my speakers as suggested by Dolby Labs. I also built stands for the smaller speakers so their tweeter heights match the BL5s. I have an acoustically transparent video screen so even the BL7.4 is at the appropriate height as the BL5. All three speakers are behind the screen.
For disc players, I recommend getting a "universal" player. Such a player will play CDs, DVDs, DVD-As, and SACDs. My player is even more universal in that it will play PAL and NTSC video formats and is region free.