ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Anyone with experience of these?
Not heard them. But they have been around for a while now. I think they might have mini-desktop versions as well?
The last I remembered the reviews for them were not so great. What about it that interest you so? Is it just the looks or the zen concept of a single driver speaker?
wonderfulelectric: Not heard them. But they have been around for a while now. I think they might have mini-desktop versions as well? The last I remembered the reviews for them were not so great. What about it that interest you so? Is it just the looks or the zen concept of a single driver speaker?
The link in the first post takes you to their website where, if you follow their own tabbed links you can find the mini systems, etc. Apart from the big speakers in the picture the prices seem very reasonable. They link to some very good reviews, although no manufacturer is going to highlight poor reviews if there were any.
I actually found this Ferguson website by accident when looking for a source of sheet Perspex. The very low wattages needed to drive the speakers look impressive.
Graham
vikinger:The very low wattages needed to drive the speakers look impressive.
This is a major attribute of horns in general.
Horns and waveguides increase the coupling of the air of the room to the driver much better than an open or front-baffle driver. This is why their efficiency is so incredible. Back in the early days of loudspeakers and amps, horns were a must. In order to get medium to high amounts of sound pressure out of low power tube amps, very efficient speakers were necessary.
Beo4 'til I die!
That's the problem. They rely on the horn to amplify the sound, so not a lot of wattage is required. However, that also means that things like these (and other horn speakers) have very high levels of distortions. Way back when, they were all the rage to connect to low-wattage tube amps.
I do like the uniqueness of things like that, though.
The Bose wave radio uses a cheap and nasty plastic waveguide system. However, whilst Bose make no claims about High Fidelity, the output of that radio is actually very impressive.
vikinger:he Bose wave radio uses a cheap and nasty plastic waveguide system. However, whilst Bose make no claims about High Fidelity, the output of that radio is actually very impressive.
Yup. After seeing those desktop horns (never saw such small ones), I think they might make a good gift for someone.
vikinger: The Bose wave radio uses a cheap and nasty plastic waveguide system. However, whilst Bose make no claims about High Fidelity, the output of that radio is actually very impressive. Graham
Yes, the Bose wave is a good example of a folded horn - a great way of making a low frequency horn. The length of the horn is directly proportional to its low frequency abilities. By 'folding' the horn, you can make what would be a very long horn into a neat and compact one.
I just want to add a general statement of fact about horns to this thread for those who may not know but are now considering them. They are very, very likely to be very, very directional.
Indeed the horn/waveguide is meant to focus the sound in a more 30 degrees precise angle which can be a good or bad thing. There will be less room interaction for sure then again you will have to sit in the sweet spot for best sound. I will most likely go for Avantgarde Acoustic or Acapella audio for spherical horns though. The best kind you can get for accurate music productions are those horns used for monitoring like the higher end models from JBL, the legendary Meyer X10 or DIY horn systems from TAD.
With the sort of 'rebirth' of the horn speaker that is happening, I'm surprised that the multi-cellular horn hasn't been revived as well.
Evan: With the sort of 'rebirth' of the horn speaker that is happening, I'm surprised that the multi-cellular horn hasn't been revived as well.
That looks expensive! What are the advantages over other horn types?
wonderfulelectric:That looks expensive! What are the advantages over other horn types?
Vintage muilticells are hugely expensive but that is mostly if not all because of their rarity. When new, I believe production costs would be the biggest factor in cost/price.
The idea is to increase dispersion and widen the range of frequency response. The multi-cellular horn essentially combined the benefits of small and very large horns. The small cells used alone are only good for HF and have a very long aspect ratio giving them bad dispersion characteristics. However, when you combine say 18 of these little horns, they can spread the sound across a greater area. So now we have excellent HF response and with great dispersion. These cells also make for a very large horn mouth surface area (the dimension that determines lower threshold of response. Additionally, the array of small horns share a connected volume of air, and when done correctly this volume of air reacts together as one giant horn and can extend to lower frequencies than the average horn.
Thanks for the info!
Anytime.
Electrified: That's the problem. They rely on the horn to amplify the sound, so not a lot of wattage is required. However, that also means that things like these (and other horn speakers) have very high levels of distortions. Way back when, they were all the rage to connect to low-wattage tube amps. I do like the uniqueness of things like that, though.
Oh no no.... With proper horn designs. Extreme low distortion can easily be achieved that is why studios use them. I think what you mean is coloration from the horn and frequency unevenness. With horns what you essentially do is that you are able to reduce the displacement of the movings parts to very little thus guaranteeing more linear travel even at high sound levels.
wonderfulelectric:Oh no no.... With proper horn designs. Extreme low distortion can easily be achieved that is why studios use them. I think what you mean is coloration from the horn and frequency unevenness. With horns what you essentially do is that you are able to reduce the displacement of the movings parts to very little thus guaranteeing more linear travel even at high sound levels.
What do you think "coloration" is, if not distortion? It's "colored" by the horn, distorting the original signal. It's not that hard to understand.
Edit: Unless of course, you think that the horn merely "adjusts" frequencies almost perfectly. And no, we don't use horn speakers in any studio I have been in. Obviously, some tweeters have a wave guide/horn, but that's not to say that studio monitors in general are horn speakers.
And what's with this:
wonderfulelectric:thus guaranteeing more linear travel even at high sound levels
Someone has been reading marketing literature since yesterday. I don't want MORE linear travel of the sound waves. I don't want the "sweet spot" to be an oblong area 10 inches across.
Well focused sound waves are useful in studios where in- room reflections will be problem.
When horns are done actively..... Colorations can be almost eliminated. The real problem with horns is that they can only operate in a relatively narrow range before they start to lose linearity in amplifying the sound so.... When you crossover actively with sharp slope you can reduce that problem to a minimum.
Westlake, Tad compression drivers are so well-regarded in the pro sector. And then there is the more recent Equator audio.
BTW never owned horns before perhaps one day.
I wanted to get the powered Avantgarde solos before but after considering that it is only powered, not active and not made for reference monitoring... I went for the ATCs instead. I love the design though. So so retro and luxurious.
I learned about horns way back in 2002. When Avantgarge audio was huge. Love the design but best actively driven which many people have done but too much trouble and way too much money for me to do so.
And I wish pro horns are not so damn fugly... The Meyer X10, the Westlakes and the Tad custom loudspeakers are best used flushed and concealed. But there is definitely a retro charm about them. And they are so out of style they will never get out of style.... LOL.
wonderfulelectric:Well focused sound waves are useful in studios where in- room reflections will be problem.
I don't know which studios you have been to or worked in, but do you really think that studio people (of which I count myself) have problematic studios - studios so problematic, in fact, that they need to rely on something as distorting as full range horns?
wonderfulelectric:When horns are done actively..... Colorations can be almost eliminated. The real problem with horns is that they can only operate in a relatively narrow range before they start to lose linearity in amplifying the sound so.... When you crossover actively with sharp slope you can reduce that problem to a minimum.
Actually, what I'm talking about is not active amplification or not. I'm talking about the actual horn (the physical shape) colouring (i.e. distort) the sound.
And, yes, you're right that they only can only operate in a narrow band, because the distortion are even greater the more bandwidth it has to deliver. As for crossovers, that only matters when you actually have different drivers, and having a crossover well into the hundreds to at least have some sort of bass elsewhere, really doesn't cut it, active or not.
The inherent flaw in "full range" horns is that it relies an mechanical amplification for want of a better word, and not a actual power. That means that all the sloppiness are amplified as well, whereas in a proper active speaker, you can hide a lot by amplifying the actual signal and broadcast that. A horn speaker without the actual horn (i.e. the actual driver), is a low powered full-range driver, and as such, you won't get accurate reproduction of the audio. And that distortion too is amplified mechanically by the horn.
Add to that, that the deeper the sound, the more that huge horn will resonate. They measure like ***, things like that.
wonderfulelectric:Westlake, Tad compression drivers are so well-regarded in the pro sector. And then there is the more recent Equator audio.
Really? And what do you consider the "pro sector"? Let me just say, that there's a reason that the only Westlakes I have seen aren't "full range" horn, but rather merely have a horned tweeter. The same goes for Tad's monitors. And I honestly know very few people who rate the Westlakes at all - be it in the movie industry or music industry. Obviously, I don't know everyone, but since you have no experience whatsoever, I figure my own experience and friends in the industry is a much better barometer. The Tads, well, they're fine, but they're not full range horn speakers. Don't confuse things.
As for Equator, I have only seen small near-field monitors from them, and one of them is using a horn for the tweeter (yes, the tweeter is smack in the middle of larger diaphragm).
wonderfulelectric:I wanted to get the powered Avantgarde solos before but after considering that it is only powered, not active and not made for reference monitoring... I went for the ATCs instead. I love the design though. So so retro and luxurious.
Luxurious? To me, luxurious entails being good at what tthe thing is intended for. Let me repeat: There's a reason we don't use horn speakers, and especially not "full range" ones, as reference monitors in a studio.
wonderfulelectric:I learned about horns way back in 2002. When Avantgarge audio was huge. Love the design but best actively driven which many people have done but too much trouble and way too much money for me to do so.
So you were 15-16 at the time. Perhaps it's time to shed that baggage.
wonderfulelectric:And I wish pro horns are not so damn fugly... The Meyer X10, the Westlakes and the Tad custom loudspeakers are best used flushed and concealed. But there is definitely a retro charm about them. And they are so out of style they will never get out of style.... LOL.
It's called "We don't give a *** how they look, as long as they're fit for purpose".
Usual thread destruction.
Oops. Sorry. But the Ferguson got us started on horns. Anyway have you managed to get an audition? Mind you the Lowthers as used in the Fergusons are well known to give a midrange shout if you are into that kind of thing. BTW Tangbands make way better aka neutral sounding full range drivers and way cheaper too. For some reason their higher end but still very affordable range of neodymium driven drivers are now OEM only.
Lowthers are more cultish and you must really favor it's flavor so to speak to put so much work into working around their "flaws".
wonderfulelectric: Oops. Sorry. But the Ferguson got us started on horns. Anyway have you managed to get an audition? Mind you the Lowthers as used in the Fergusons are well known to give a midrange shout if you are into that kind of thing. BTW Tangbands make way better aka neutral sounding full range drivers and way cheaper too. For some reason their higher end but still very affordable range of neodymium driven drivers are now OEM only. Lowthers are more cultish and you must really favor it's flavor so to speak to put so much work into working around their "flaws".
Why would I seek an audition? I was looking for a sheet of Perspex!
Everyone might have learned something from the first few posts in this thread, but the degeneration into a slanging match between two posters helps no one.
Okay...... It was obviously an oversight plus you thought that was slanging?
So what do you need the perspex for?
I remember perspex furniture was all the craze back in 2003-2005. Oh I designed some actually back in 2001. Then I lost them to a fire... broke my leg... long story... You probably are not interested anyway.
BTW is there such a thing as scratch resistant perspex available for purchase as used in Tiffany Jewelry for the average joe who is looking to make some furniture? I remember hunting for it way back when.
wonderfulelectric: Okay...... It was obviously an oversight plus you thought that was slanging? So what do you need the perspex for? I remember perspex furniture was all the craze back in 2003-2005. Oh I designed some actually back in 2001. Then I lost them to a fire... broke my leg... long story... You probably are not interested anyway. BTW is there such a thing as scratch resistant perspex available for purchase as used in Tiffany Jewelry for the average joe who is looking to make some furniture? I remember hunting for it way back when.
WE, you have completely misunderstood...... the slanging in this thread is mostly by Electrified!
Perspex panel for a stair balustrade where light has to allowed through from a roof light. Simple stuff- I am not into shaping bending and polishing acrylic sheet.
wonderfulelectric:I remember perspex furniture was all the craze back in 2003-2005. Oh I designed some actually back in 2001.
I can't help but note how creative and insightful you were way back in your very early teens - I'm impressed.
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: vikinger:I remember perspex furniture was all the craze back in 2003-2005. Oh I designed some actually back in 2001. I can't help but note how creative and insightful you were way back in your very early teens - I'm impressed.
vikinger:I remember perspex furniture was all the craze back in 2003-2005. Oh I designed some actually back in 2001.
If only I'd been in my early teens then....
vikinger: Puncher: vikinger:I remember perspex furniture was all the craze back in 2003-2005. Oh I designed some actually back in 2001. I can't help but note how creative and insightful you were way back in your very early teens - I'm impressed. If only I'd been in my early teens then....
Fixed, sorry!!
Puncher: vikinger: Puncher: vikinger:I remember perspex furniture was all the craze back in 2003-2005. Oh I designed some actually back in 2001. I can't help but note how creative and insightful you were way back in your very early teens - I'm impressed. If only I'd been in my early teens then.... Fixed, sorry!!
You need to edit mistakes a bit faster!
Thanks! Oh I was quite anti-social though. I was raised by Wallpaper, Vogue, Stereophile, GQ and Vanity Fair. Not down to earth at all.... still am not.... that's why I am the way I am. A little "delusional", a little off... Dumped instead of kept... You know just the usual....
Plus the crazy black swan phase I just went through only looks good in the movie not in real life. I had breakdowns after breakdowns.
vikinger: WE, you have completely misunderstood...... the slanging in this thread is mostly by Electrified! Perspex panel for a stair balustrade where light has to allowed through from a roof light. Simple stuff- I am not into shaping bending and polishing acrylic sheet.
Oh I didn't mind if you thought I was slanging cos sometimes it takes two... I provoke men to react a certain way... Having lived in closed environments such as rehabs taught me a lot about my relationship with certain men.... There was this once this guy totally charged at me out of the blue only to apologize yet intimidate me all at once.... long story..
So you are doing the cutting the perspex yourself? Quite a handyman I see. I commission my pieces to get done cos you know... I am not remotely handy... And the problem with this is that you end up losing a lot of control over the end result.
When I was into perspex or perspex like finishes or mood, I like to use mood to describe looks. Anyway the Matthew Barney/ Bjork aesthetic was all the rage back then. I experimented a lot with high gloss paint finishes with acrylic panels, stainless steel accents and crystal glass sheets. Crystal glass was the closest match I could find in terms of transparency to colorless perspex so it was a compromise for sure. But now upon searching on your perspex panel for stair balustrade, I realize that there is such a thing as acrylic perspex scratch resistant sheets.... Imagine how I am feeling now...
Anyway enough of my blabberring. Best of luck to your project !