ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi everyone,
I've been working on a project in recent months and I think that I have found a way to improve on the standard Powerlink wiring format. I'm happy with the results on my own speakers, but I would be interested to hear the thoughts of other Beoworlders as to whether normal Powerlink cable is good enough for high-end audio listening, or whether there is room for improvement.......
I've found that by completely re-working the wiring arrangement, the speaker performance can be improved and some of the inherent issues that often seem to affect B&O audio systems can be removed or greatly reduced.
The result is a completely different cable design which seems to give a quieter noise floor, reduced signal loss and improved treble response.
My aims were as follows:-
The final version of the cable has a 3.4mm outer diameter (so not too bulky when compared to traditional Powerlink) and ditches 8 pin DIN plugs for 7 pin versions to allow a higher quality plug (with solid metal body and gold pins) to be used. There are now only 3 wires inside the cable instead of 8, but this works correctly on all Beolab speakers except Beolab 5.
When used with older speaker that have displays fitted (eg. Beolab 5000, Penta, etc), the speakers work correctly, but the cables are designed not to light up the displays (to avoid inducing data pulses into the audio channels). Each cable carries only one audio channel (ie. left or right, not both), so the cables are designed not to be daisy-chained.
My listening room now uses these cables running a pair of Beolab Penta 3's and I'm very happy with the results. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my latest project!
Steve.
www.soundsheavenly.com
Founder of Sounds Heavenly Cables and Brand Ambassador for Bang & Olufsen
Sounds Heavenly are proud to sponsor BeoWorld!
Please check out my YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/soundsheavenlycables
Hi Steve,
the main concern is 'shielding' I suppose!??
How about a version with RJ-plugs - either at both ends or as combo DIN/RJ?
Greetings Millemissen
There is a tv - and there is a BV
In my re-seller role with Beo4life, I have listened to many B&O speaker systems and in my opinion,you have wasted your time Steve. I have never noticed any of the problems that you describe, provided the correct type of cable specified by B&O is used and they are routed sensibly.
With the possible exception of Beolab 5's, you are not really dealing with "high end" speakers or sound systems. Often "pleasant", sometimes "awfu" but certainly not "high end"!
Ordinary powerlinks for older designs, Mk3 for ice power and Mk2 or fully wired for speakers with displays, have always been perfectly adequate for me, as have conventional 8 pin plastic plugs with ordinary pins.
Beolab 6000, 8000, 4000 as well as Beolab 1 and 3 could all do with an improvement in sound quality but it is not going to be achieved by "high end" cables. With most, you would be better off saving up for a sub woofer and then setting it up properly!
My feeling is that you are medling for medling's sake.............or is there some other more dubious motive?
Regards Graham
Hi Joeyboygolf,
would you be so kind to present me/us with a/your definition of 'high-end audio'.
Grrr! Millemissen
Dear joeyboygolf,
"In my re-seller role with Beo4life,...."
"With the possible exception of Beolab 5's, you are not really dealing with "high end" speakers or sound systems. Often "pleasant", sometimes "awfu" but certainly not "high end"!"
Why do you resell Bang olufsen devices ?
I would never buy something to someone who critizise its own material.
4 beolab 5, beolab 9, beolab 10, beolab 5000, beolab 8000 mk2, beolab 6002, beolab 3500, beovision 7 55 mk2, 2 beovision 11 46 mk4, beotime, beosound ouverture, beosound essence, beoplay A8, beomaster 900 RG de luxe and the collection continues...
It's an interesting exercise, and I'm assuming you will be able to sell these to people suffering from a leftover amount of audio nervosa from not being able to tweak their B&O systems but as to whether or not it makes a difference? Have you heard the effects, crosstalk or injection of data pulses into the sound with normal PL cables?
Is noise a big issue? I've only ever had noise in my system, hum, when the plugs weren't mated properly.
Are the items you mention measurable electronically? If you are relying on just sighted listening to tell you it's better, or even different, I'd just point out that the human ear and brain are remarkably prone to detecting differences when none is actually there, which is why the whole high end cable market exists in the first place. Without double blind tests...you know.
Back a number of decades ago when I still sort of believed a lot of nonsense about audio, prior to going thru a lot of controlled listening testing and opening my ears/eyes so to speak, I was working with a hifi shop to help them design and market a few custom cables. We had several cables hooked up to a switch box, very high endish with silver solder, etc. and were amazed at the "night and day" differences. One had great bass, one was rolled off and polite sounding, one was bright and edgy with poor bass, one imaged really well but was a tad harsh etc. One day we came in to do another listening session right before finalizing the marketing and such, and listened and yup, all the same characteristics were in full force for each cable, assuring us that we were right on the money.
Problem was, the technician needed the box over the weekend to do some repair work on a couple of components on the bench, had borrowed it, and when he put it back the cables were not in their original positions. The cable we had found to be exceedingly bright and abrasive was perceived as the mellow one with great bass, etc. Quite an enlightening experience all in all.
So, ears are fallable.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
olvisab: Dear joeyboygolf, "In my re-seller role with Beo4life,...." "With the possible exception of Beolab 5's, you are not really dealing with "high end" speakers or sound systems. Often "pleasant", sometimes "awfu" but certainly not "high end"!" Why do you resell Bang olufsen devices ? I would never buy something to someone who critizise its own material.
I would!
Having been enlightened by joeyboygolf that B&O 'don't' produce high end speakers, this therefore means I can get at least 60% off of the stock he carries in his business, because nobody seriously interested in audio pays top dollar for something that looks good, but doesn't provide the audio results expected and demanded.
Caveat emptor and all of that.
I'd also add that in my professional dealngs with Steve, you couldn't hope to meet a nicer, more helpful, or professional guy - I thoroughly recommend his services.
John...
Jeff: It's an interesting exercise, and I'm assuming you will be able to sell these to people suffering from a leftover amount of audio nervosa from not being able to tweak their B&O systems but as to whether or not it makes a difference? Have you heard the effects, crosstalk or injection of data pulses into the sound with normal PL cables? Is noise a big issue? I've only ever had noise in my system, hum, when the plugs weren't mated properly. Are the items you mention measurable electronically? If you are relying on just sighted listening to tell you it's better, or even different, I'd just point out that the human ear and brain are remarkably prone to detecting differences when none is actually there, which is why the whole high end cable market exists in the first place. Without double blind tests...you know. Back a number of decades ago when I still sort of believed a lot of nonsense about audio, prior to going thru a lot of controlled listening testing and opening my ears/eyes so to speak, I was working with a hifi shop to help them design and market a few custom cables. We had several cables hooked up to a switch box, very high endish with silver solder, etc. and were amazed at the "night and day" differences. One had great bass, one was rolled off and polite sounding, one was bright and edgy with poor bass, one imaged really well but was a tad harsh etc. One day we came in to do another listening session right before finalizing the marketing and such, and listened and yup, all the same characteristics were in full force for each cable, assuring us that we were right on the money. Problem was, the technician needed the box over the weekend to do some repair work on a couple of components on the bench, had borrowed it, and when he put it back the cables were not in their original positions. The cable we had found to be exceedingly bright and abrasive was perceived as the mellow one with great bass, etc. Quite an enlightening experience all in all. So, ears are fallable.
That's a very interesting, revealing and great post Jeff (says he who still battles with left over audiophile nervosa from time to time - but not thus far with B&O thank heavens!)
Many thanks
Fantastic, thanks guys!
I knew that this one would open an interesting debate......
To answer Graham's question: I trained as a sound recording engineer and this has left me with a very critical perception of sound (probably too much so). Hence, as I listen to music, I often get annoyed at how the recording was mixed, as well as how it is being reproduced by the audio system. This has lead me to look into making a cable design that is as close as possible to being technically perfect, so as to minimse the electrical effects which I've heard in different systems over the years. I'm happy with the improvement I've obtained on my own speakers by tweaking the cabling, so I certainly don't feel that I've wasted my time!
As a B&O fanatic of some 30 years, I still think that there are some great sounding products in the B&O range, both past and present. I see Beolab 9 and 3 in particular as being true high-end audiophile speakers, which can sound superb when partnered with a good pre-amplifier and source components, yet which can seem a little "lacklustre" (in my opinion) on a Beosound system. The later amplified Pentas come quite close in my view as being very good quality speakers, which are maybe a little less sensitive to their partnering equipment. Whilst I wouldn't expect to hear any difference from changing cables on Beolab 6000 or 8000 speakers, I do think that there are improvements to be had on some of the better Beolab speakers.
As an aside, I'm in my late 30's and so I don't claim to have anything like perfect hearing now, although I can still hear up to 17.5kHz in hearing tests, so I hope that I'm not missing too much of the music.......
And yes Millemissen, I've designed some RJ45 to DIN combo cables as well!
Jeff has a valid point that the problems I've tried to eliminate are not always present in all B&O systems, so there is no need to fix your system if you aren't experiencing the symptoms that I've described. I have 9 rooms connected using various link systems around my home and workshop and some cable runs are well over 100 metres. This means that most of the problems that I've described (including left/right audio crosstalk and data/audio crosstalk) can be introduced and observed to some degree depending on the equipment and speakers being used. The key electrical improvement that I've found is that by reducing the loop impedance of the audio circuit by around 40% compared to the standard cables (ie. signal wire + ground wire DC resistance), the signal loss in the cabling over long runs is dramatically reduced, giving a noticeable boost to the received volume level and tonal balance at the speaker end.
Oh, and thanks for your kind words John! I suspect that I've probably looked to hard to solve problems that only I was worrying about, but hey, that's the fun of being an engineer!
Steve at Sounds Heavenly: I have 9 rooms connected using various link systems around my home and workshop and some cable runs are well over 100 metres. This means that most of the problems that I've described (including left/right audio crosstalk and data/audio crosstalk) can be introduced and observed to some degree depending on the equipment and speakers being used.
This is a point that I will easily buy. Most people with "other" stereo systems - and the high endists - will usually have at most a few meters of cable from the amp to the speakers, and the interconnects are very short. Whereas B&O systems are usually owned by people who care about looks and want to hide the cables, and even a smallish room might easily have 10-15 meters of cabling from the system to the speakers. The thin PL cables are VERY thin.
These issues will be there no matter whether you want to call the pieces of the system "high end" or not. But there certainly is room for improvement - why do people often say that their speakers sound better when connected directly to the audio system instead of through the TV? Because the audio routing inside the TV could be better. Normally I wouldn't worry about data signal crosstalk, because there are bits flowing only when something changes, not while a track plays. But on some systems you can actually hear the internal data buses while changing volume etc, already injected before the audio leaves the PL socket.
* * *
Generally, I find it much easier to deal with salesmen who admit that some of their products are more perfect than the others, because that is ALWAYS the case...
--mika
Graham is absolutely right and at least he dares to criticise his own business where it comes to high end! B&O is absolutely no high end, just a brand with lots of bling bling and maybe "high end" materials. I've heard better for much less.
Brengen & Ophalen
Leslie,
Be just serious one minute.
How could you collect so much b&o devices and accessories and doesn't consider "in a certain way" that b&o is an highend brand.
For such a compromise between sound quality/technical reliability/timeless design, I would say IT IS AN HIGH END AUDIO BRAND.
According to the fact that b&o used a lot of Philips component, this manner you don't consider philips as a great manufacturer of audiophile component.
A Krell cd dsp has just been sold on ebay with a philips cmd 1 built in and 20 years later it is always considered as one of the most cd player ever made.
There are better high ends brands for sure but that doesn't mean b&o doesn't desserve this name.
Leslie: Graham is absolutely right and at least he dares to criticise his own business where it comes to high end! B&O is absolutely no high end, just a brand with lots of bling bling and maybe "high end" materials. I've heard better for much less.
Welcome to the world of subjectivity and subjective opinions in audio.
I've also heard highly touted and vaunted high end systems, vastly more expensive than B&O, sound an awful lot worse than B&O's mid level efforts.
I've also heard very expensive high end two channel systems beaten in terms of natural instrumental reproduction as regards timbre, by relatively cheap, mainstream, home theatre in a box systems from the likes of Sony.
Measurements, and an scientific lead engineering approach towards the closest approach to the original sound and psycho-acoustics, executed at the highest tertiary trained levels, are the way forward, not subjective opinions, or pseudo-science marketed by an arguably disingenuous so called high end specialist manufacturing industry, to gullible, and unhealthily obsessive audiophiles.
I used to own an exceptionally expensive full fat, complete Naim Audio system, which many audiophiles would argue is the bees knees; however that didn't stop it being outdone by a much cheaper, Sony ES system, when assessed against musical criteria as regards it's reproduction and presentation, when the measure was the closest approach to the original sound.
You may feel that B&O is not 'high end' - but their R&D and the tertiary level and training of their staff is without peer, matched only perhaps by Harmon International - and perhaps the majors such as Matsushita, Sony, Yamaha etc when it comes to electronic engineering - but certainly not any so called high end specialist assembler brands that I can think of, or have had experience of, in the industry.
John..
Steve,
I think this project has a lot of merit. As someone who both sells and owns a lot of B&O equipment I think that the relationship to your gear changes from the shopping stage to the ownership stage. Initially you hear lots of different speakers and are impressed or unimpressed with each, though without nuance. You make your selection and live with them for a while.
Then comes the nuanced familiarity that develops over time. This is where your cable experiment makes sense. If I had access to them as a dealer, I could probably only sell them to clients who've owned their speakers for enough time to have intimate understanding of their performance. That's when you can swap out something like a cable and hear a big difference.
So kudos for the experiment.
olvisab: Be just serious one minute. How could you collect so much b&o devices and accessories and doesn't consider "in a certain way" that b&o is an highend brand.
Olivier, B&O is my lifestyle, I own a lot (older stuff) and will not buy any other brand than B&O just because of the design and 2ndly for the sound.
But being honest (and that's my opinion) B&O certainly does not deserve the name high end, maybe as you already mentioned yourself "in a certain way"!
Optimizing cables is one of many ways to improve the sound you hear from your loudspeakers.
Often a carpet on the floor or curtains in a "somewhat naked" room can do wonder.
Rearranging the loudspeakers in the room, connecting the speakers to the audiosystem instead of routing the signal through a modern BV are examples too.
Much of what we 'hear' as 'good sound' depends on the source: Lossy/Losless/HighRes-files - and as Steven notes on how the music was produced/mastered.
Remembering these facts, it is nice that Steve is working on this project.
He (or she) who wants to improve the sound of the speakers, now will have the opportunity to do this in yet another way.
With the 'return-policy' of Soundsheavenly I don't think there can be any risk in trying out. (@Steven, I do not want to make promises on behalf of you - but that is how it normally works when buying cables from you )
If these cables can improve the sound to some of us, Steve's effords certainly isn't a waste of time.
P.S. This is not about 'High-end' or 'not High-end' - this is about improving the sound of the speakers in the surroundings that we have at home.
TripEnglish: Steve, I think this project has a lot of merit. As someone who both sells and owns a lot of B&O equipment I think that the relationship to your gear changes from the shopping stage to the ownership stage. Initially you hear lots of different speakers and are impressed or unimpressed with each, though without nuance. You make your selection and live with them for a while. Then comes the nuanced familiarity that develops over time. This is where your cable experiment makes sense. If I had access to them as a dealer, I could probably only sell them to clients who've owned their speakers for enough time to have intimate understanding of their performance. That's when you can swap out something like a cable and hear a big difference. So kudos for the experiment.
Sorry but that sounds more like a salesman's requirement than a customers!
Ban boring signatures!
I agree with Trip. I think your project has merit. I have a pair of Beolab 3s that I would love to try your new cables on. Your current product line is of such high quality and service is so good that I would be more than willing to try your cables.
Bill
Thanks for your support, Leslie.
I lusted after my first B&O in the early 70's and bought a Beomaster 1900 when they first appeared in 1976. This was followed, soon after, by a Beogram 1902.
That is how I started with B&O. I appreciated the design and the engineering excellence together with the ease of use. I didn't think I was buying high end audio then, nor did I when I bought my Beocenter 9000/RL140's some 10 years later.
Like Leslie, I have heard a lot of better sounding but cheaper audio systems over the years and I don't have to like it just because it has Bang & Olufsen on the front of it.
Most professional salespeople are realistic enough to know that they are not necessarily selling "the best" all the time, they are just very good at convincing the buyer that it is the best!! If you do believe it then they have done a very good job.
Hi Millemissen,
You are quite right, I am always happy to accept any item back if the buyer doesn't feel that it has completely fulfilled their expectations. I've always believed that online shopping should be completely risk-free to the buyer, which is why I give a money-back promise which includes the shipping costs.
I will be interested to hear what other Beoworlders think of these cables and to find out whether they do make a noticable difference to the sound quality in different homes, with varying combinations of systems and speakers.
I've written a few notes on optimising speakers positions within a listening room (see: http://www.soundsheavenly.co.uk/faq.htm) which may also be helpful to others in search of musical nirvana, as this is one of the easiest ways to improve the quality of your music. Good speaker positioning will do far more for sound quality than good cables ever can!
Kind regards, Steve.
Steve at Sounds Heavenly: Good speaker positioning will do far more for sound quality than good cables ever can!
Good speaker positioning will do far more for sound quality than good cables ever can!
Very true! And also of course very difficult in most homes as the rooms are lived in!
As far as B&O being high end, it rather depends on what you mean. As with most things in life, you can do it the hard way or the easy way. B&O offers the ability to enjoy superb sound and vision in a very easy to use package, usually in a manner which is acceptable to other members of the household. It will usually be capable of being worked by everyone as well without recourse to a large manual and will set up with little fuss.
You can of course get a collection of different makes and you might hit an audio nirvana. But you may then find that there are a multitude of cables, remote controls and intimidating buttons and controls. Over the years, this has lessened but many of us are refugees from such systems. To us, B&O offer sanity and calm and an ability to just listen to the music, not the system. Therefore I applaud Steve for his project but will not be troubling the scorers on this one!
Peter
Steve at Sounds Heavenly: My aims were as follows:- Prevent any crosstalk between the left and right audio channels Reduce the audible mains hum in ICE Power speakers There must be no data pulses induced into the audio channels Minimise signal loss, particularly at higher frequencies Improve the clarity and give a more neutral musical tone Keep to a slim cable that works with all models of Beolab speaker
While I agree with the first four aims, I have only ever heard aim two mentioned as a complaint on these forums. I would also assume, if they are three core, rather than eight, they are not only better but also less expensive.
John makes an excellent point. B&O is not "high end" and I thank the audio gods every day for that. I've seen and heard too much official audiophile approved "high end" gear that just sounds and performs attrociously, but someone out there will believe it's the bees knees because it's gotten a writeup in Stereophool or TAS. Often small manufacturer high end gear measures just horribly too, not even meeting minimal standards of engineering competence, and the high end afficionados who love it will claim that the fact it sounds so different with different speakers or power filters is a sign of it's sensitivity that "reveals" the differences, rather than the fact it's so psychotically poorly designed it causes the susceptibility to these things. I remember a YBA CD system that didn't use any post reconstruction filtering, because we all know filters are bad, bad I say, letting every bit of the ultra high frequency nasties from not filtering out the digital steps pass thru, then the manufacturer had the gall to say obviously this piece is so sensitive you need to use these special cables, which were crappy brick wall analog filters in their own right they were so bent in RLC parameters, to make it sound halfway acceptable.
As for long runs, 100 meters is pretty darned far for an unbalanced signal, which is why the Masterlink is a balanced setup. You'd be amazed at how far studios will run balanced line level stuff, often on things like phone cord, to connect places. In the old days of the Columbia Masterworks recordings they ran signal miles over such setups to mixing/reverb tanks and to the studios from the recording venues. And these are some of the most prized recordings to this day, so go figure.
Jeff: I remember a YBA CD system that didn't use any post reconstruction filtering, because we all know filters are bad, bad I say, letting every bit of the ultra high frequency nasties from not filtering out the digital steps pass thru, then the manufacturer had the gall to say obviously this piece is so sensitive you need to use these special cables, which were crappy brick wall analog filters in their own right they were so bent in RLC parameters, to make it sound halfway acceptable.
Wonder when we start seeing high end Pupin coils to even out the badness in long speaker cables
Having spent over 10 yrs in the UK high end audio industry, I know what some of these posts are getting at - there IS an element of snake oil with accessories and cables.
That said, Steve makes great stuff, and his description sounds credible interesting. I have heard cables make a clear difference to systems in the past.
My PL cables have been plastered over and decorated over though...
Thanks folkdeejay!
I suppose when I think of B&O, I view them as "high quality", not "high end", although I still think that it is worth exploring how to improve the sound from a B&O system. My approach has always been to aim for good quality sound from sensibly priced and specified hardware, which I find is something that seems to work well for Naim, Quad and Meridian enthusiasts as well as B&O owners.
I like Puncher's idea of getting the 3 core cable cheaper than an 8 core Powerlink cable! (in practice the extra labour cost to hand build this cable accounts for the small extra cost over the fully-wired cables). I've been surprised at the split of opinion over cable thickness, as it seems to me that for every person who says a mk.3 Powerlink cable is too thin (2.5mm), there is another who will say that the fully-wired version is too thick (4.5mm).......
I must admit to being quite shocked at the high electrical resistance of the audio circuit within a standard 20 metre long Powerlink cable, which was one of the initial drivers behind this project. I quickly found that reducing this resistance gave a direct increase in volume at the speakers, matched to a correspondingly "nicer" sound - akin to the effect of changing a long cable run for a much shorter one. Which really sums up the aim of this project in a nutshell - I wanted to be able to use long cables to my Beolab speakers, but without having them affect the sound in any way.
joeyboygolf: In my re-seller role with Beo4life, I have listened to many B&O speaker systems and in my opinion,you have wasted your time Steve. I have never noticed any of the problems that you describe, provided the correct type of cable specified by B&O is used and they are routed sensibly. My feeling is that you are medling for medling's sake.............or is there some other more dubious motive?
'Dubious motive'?!
What are you insinuating?
Steve's EXISTING cables make the world of difference to nearly all BeoLab loudspeakers - if you can't hear that then you quite clearly need to have your hearing tested.
Original PowerLink cables are useless, with humming, buzzing and the awful 'Beo 4 pulse' when the volume is adjusted. Sounds Heavenly cables eliminate all of these in their present format, so I'll be very interested to hear what these 'high-end' versions can do.
Keep up the good work Steve; I for one appreciate it!
The Secret Alpaca: joeyboygolf: In my re-seller role with Beo4life, I have listened to many B&O speaker systems and in my opinion,you have wasted your time Steve. I have never noticed any of the problems that you describe, provided the correct type of cable specified by B&O is used and they are routed sensibly. My feeling is that you are medling for medling's sake.............or is there some other more dubious motive? Steve's EXISTING cables make the world of difference to nearly all BeoLab loudspeakers - if you can't hear that then you quite clearly need to have your hearing tested. Original PowerLink cables are useless, with humming, buzzing and the awful 'Beo 4 pulse' when the volume is adjusted. Sounds Heavenly cables eliminate all of these in their present format, so I'll be very interested to hear what these 'high-end' versions can do.
I have used Steve's standard cables for speed of supply and price reasons, both Mk3 and Mk2 equivalents and have not noticed that they are any better or worse than the B&O equivalents.
I rarely use cables longer than 5 metres, occasionally 10.
Granted, Steve's service is second to none and nothing is too much trouble. I hope he will continue to supply me when I need him!
I can only say it as I find It so you can maybe understand why I am searching for a reason for the "project".
No problem Graham!
I fully understand your views. Many B&O owners are completely happy with the sound quality that they get from their system and I don't want to knock that in any way. My trouble is that I'm a perfectionist and once I notice a problem (no matter how small), I can't rest until I've put it right.
Thanks for your kind words (and thanks to The Secret Alpaca too!), I'm pleased to hear that my standard cables are doing their job properly as sensibly priced, good quality replacements for OEM cables.
Steve at Sounds Heavenly:I must admit to being quite shocked at the high electrical resistance of the audio circuit within a standard 20 metre long Powerlink cable, which was one of the initial drivers behind this project.
I'm intrigued - what values did you measure? Am I wrong in thinking that the typical Powerlink input resistance is in the 5K - 10K range?
Hi Puncher,
Yes, those values are about right for the input resistance of a Beolab speaker, but I was looking at the resistance along the cable (both audio wire and ground wire), ignoring the input circuitry of the amplifier and speaker.
I started by measuring the DC loop impedance of the audio circuit within the cable (ie. by short-circuiting the audio and ground pins together at one end, then checking the resistance between them at the other end. On longer cables, this value was surprisingly high (around 500 Ohms over 100 metres cable length). Comparing this to my standard industry baseline - telephony transmission cables (typically quoted as having a resistance of 88 Ohms per loop mile), the audio cables were giving lower performance. I tend to use telephony cables as a comparison for "common sense" purposes, as they are designed to give a reasonable cost/quality compromise for audio transmission, without any "high-end" pretensions or over-engineering.
By looking to cables that I've used in recording studio installations, I managed to reduce this figure substantially, eventually settling on a wire with a good performance, without being too bulky or inflexible and without being too costly. I'm a great believer in using good quality connectors, as they are the point at which a cable "wears" during its life due to plugging/unplugging, so again I looked for a good, solid plug that would last well in long-term use.
My other tests for audio and data cross-talk were mainly empirical, ie. tested by ear, but it is easy to set up a "worst case" situation to force a fault to show, using long cables and introducing test signals at a high level so that they can easily be measured. In this respect, the new cables performed faultlessly, ie. I was not able to induce any data or cross-channel audio in the cable, even at 100m cable lengths.
I'm still carrying out further testing, but I'm happy that I've found a solution which gives me a noticeable improvement in sound quality, with basic test results confirming the audible findings.
Have you done any bandwidth testing on Powerlink or L C measurements?
As a resistance only variation, using the input of a BL8000 as an example, the signal boost into the speaker from reducing the resistance of the powerlink cable (to zero) is something like 0.06dB for a 10m length up to ~0.6dB for a 100m length.
Capacitance of the new cable in pF/m is 65.5 (Core to core) and 124.6 (Core to shield). Frequency response tests to follow......
I feel the need for some Double Blind Testing coming on!!
Want to give it a try Peter?
Please let me know the cable lengths you want to use and I'll post you out the standard and upgraded cable for you to have a listen to!
No point doing it on me! I cannot hear over 13kHz! You need one of the young ones!
Maybe this would be best done by someone like Lifestyle who could demonstate to unsuspecting customers with a variety of speakers!
I don't think the things you're measuring are all that relevant to sound quality. Ideally, you should come up with various ways/meters to measure the same parameter, do it several times each way, and get statistics. Many measurement techniques produce unreliable, unrepeatable values, depending on such thing as how the leads are held, connected, etc. Just experience from my days as an aerospace lab rat.
For a long cable run at line level, the important things are source and termination impedance, and RLC values per foot(meter) for the cable. Things like noise and crosstalk can be measured in situ by setting up worst case scenarios, and typical scenarios (power lines run parallel or at 90 deg to signal, etc.).
I'll agree with any cable nut that quality terminations, e.g. plugs, are of importance. That's one area where even the cable agnostics or atheists will agree is important. Of course, there can be disagreement as to what "quality" means! Like RCA plugs that are so tight they pull the jacks out of the circuit boards when you pull them, not so quality IMO.
I've never, in 15+ years of B&O ownership, ever had or noticed any issue no matter what cables I was using, no noise, freq anomalies, no Beo4 pulsing, nada with the exception of some noise and such when a cable was not seated properly. Reseating the DIN connector on the PL cable, which had undoubtedly been knocked askew by vacuuming, solved all the issues.
Without a proper double blind protocol, you will never, ever be sure what you are "hearing" is real or imaginary. I've seen too many people's night and day, even my wife can tell from the other room differences disappear when they didn't know what was connected. I've seen a couple of cases where wires were audible, in these cases it was speaker wires that had very odd RLC characteristics on purpose connected between tube amps with high output impedances into speakers with very wide swings in impedance vs. frequency. The old Apogee's were horrible for that, going down to 1/2 ohm for a fairly wide band and being low efficiency to boot. But these were by far the exceptions, and also were cases where even the cable atheists predicted there would or could be audible differences.
But, if you market these I'm sure you will find takers. I was around when all the cable stuff got started, when firms like Monster Cable and Polk's Cobra Cable first hit the market, and we all know where the market went after that. What was amusing was Cobra Cable had such high capacitance that it would fry a lot of the higher power, borderline unstable amplifiers like Flame, excuse me, Phase Linear, of the day. Sure did sound different though, for a little while...
Peter: Maybe this would be best done by someone like Lifestyle who could demonstate to unsuspecting customers with a variety of speakers!
Interesting idea Peter!
I'll ask Lee and see what he thinks......
Peter: Steve at Sounds Heavenly: Good speaker positioning will do far more for sound quality than good cables ever can! Very true! And also of course very difficult in most homes as the rooms are lived in!
Although I agree that some optimization with cables may work, especially wall or corner positioning of loudspeakers and the floor material plus the amount of textiles (muffling of sound) in a room have a very high impact.
Hardwood flooring is still my favorite. Blend this with "no carpets", "no heavy curtains" and you experience a very transparent sound