ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
The speaker was introduced in 1997 and reached a total volume of 325.000 units.
Available till March/April 2013 depending upon how fast the last ones go.
Roger
A really good loudspeaker - I would place them in the range as an equivalent to the old S45.2 - a speaker that performed better than one would expect but be (for B&O) reasonably priced, especially second hand, and able to be used almost anywhere. If you ever take a trip round Struer, you will see these everywhere. I have two pairs and am very happy with them.
Peter
Peter:an equivalent to the old S45.2
Exactly.
Like the passing of a faithful hound ... they will be missed.
So... BeoLab 14's around the corner?
Sad that they are ending...
Lots of products terminated...
Too long to list....
Seems B&O end more products than they introduce these days...
jc: Seems B&O end more products than they introduce these days...
I thought Tue said, he would be speeding up B&O's release of new products. Right now he seems to be more busy terminating products... Wonder if that's the way to save the company..?
There's very few of the B&O products introduced in the later years (except BV 11) , that I would like to buy.To me, it's simply boring to walk into a B&O store these days...Mostly B&O play - and then a few speakers and some TV's...Let's just hope there's some new exciting things coming up...
Truer words could not be spoken, Steffen. I grew up in the late 1980s and 1990s and to me, at that time, Bang and Olufsen and Sony were the untouchable brands of the day. Now mind you, Sony has taken a far more dramatic slide than B&O ever could, but I do not find much in the current range that is of interest to me. Ironically, those things which ARE of interest, are really just decade or longer old products that have been in the line-up for some time.
I WAS a little to disappointed to see that my later generation 4ks are made elsewhere in Europe per the "country of Origin" sticker, but I guess that's just what happens with near end of life products many times that have had the production methodologies fine tuned and honed to where they can be more mass produced.
I built my entire system around the Beolink 7000 which i find to be one of B&O's greatest achievements of all time and much as I love it and my BeoCenter 2500, I would be lying if I said I'm not SERIOUSLY tempted with a Beosound 9000 even though I don't even listen to CDs anymore. It's a complete statement and would go great my BL4ks.
The good news is that all the B&O gear I really want is old enough now where it's attainable in some form or fashion. With the likely exception of BeoLab 5, which are still precariously expensive even used.
I always felt the 4000's were a very underrated speaker but perhaps they have been around so long they are taken for granted.
Are B&O downsizing ?
At the risk of being to conservative;
I walked into a B&o store yesterday, and I still find the Beosound 9000 unrivalled. The speaker lab 3's, 9's and 5's are very nice too, but the recent designs like the lab 12's just haven't the 'artistic' factor of B&o. If you look back at all the products ever made by B&o, there are multiple items that also didn't really 'have it'., so I think (and hope) nothing has changed in that respect. In product design it's trial and error, and B&o never proved to be immune to errors...
And about the lab 4000's; the only reason to stop producing them would be that sales are too low? As a design these are far from dated from my point of view. (Compared to the above mentioned Beosound 9000, which is dated form a functional point of view, despite being a design icon/classic of everlasting quality). Speakers do not as easily 'age' as other products like TV, or music centers.
That's true about the hits and misses. And in fact, I know I will take serious flack for this I'm sure, but nothing B&O produced in the '60s, '70s and early '80s interests me at all from an *aesthetic* standpoint. In those eras, I prefer more traditional "Hi-Fi" like muscular McIntosh amps and such. Heck, I'm not even very fond of the BO logo from that vintage. I really feel that the era which brought forth the Beomaster 5000, Beocenter 9xxx, Beosystem 2500, Beosound 9000 and most of the "active" speakers is by far my favorite period of B&O history. I can not speak much to their visual products, but it's a testament to the stubborn staying power of products from that '90s era that several of them remained in continuous production until the past few years.
It's quite possible that a Beosound 9000 with Beolab 8000 speakers will remain B&O's most timeless contribution to the audio/visual world for years, and perhaps decades to come. I'm tempted to own a 9000, however I feel it would be wasted as I'd pretty much just be using it as an AUX input source and bridge to my 4000s. I'd probably burn some CDs just to keep loaded, but in truth the CD function would get infrequent use.
As for the 4000s, they appear to have been the workhorse of the B&O line for a long time so I would doubt that poor sales killed them. It may be that B&O is finally read to replace that key "daily driver" position in the line-up with something more functional and updated. Slow sales are certainly a possibility too, though.
Playdrv4me:I'm tempted to own a 9000,
Thats how it starts, but when you buy a second for spares...... Its full blown Beovirus !
There is a white one on ebay.de which I would go for but its collection only :-(
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
Regarding all the latest news of B&O... I have the impression that Tue is just another bad manager without any knowledge of the area he's working in: It is a dangerous species that is like an infection to a company and it's sad to see this kind of "evolvement".- no Beosound 3000- no Beloab 6000- no Beolab 4000- no ...But all to be replaced with that Beoplay "garbage"? I don't think that this is the way to go... and seriously, I believe I can do it better than Tue! A company like B&O need to be leaded by an enthusiast with knowledge and love for the company! Not somebody that only knows one solution: Cut down costs, cut down everything, just make profit.
DMacri:It would seem risky to drop a successful product without first having a successful replacement. Why not wait until the new product starts to dig into the sales and then drop them?
Applies to jobs as well, we used to call that the first rule of wingwalking. Never let go of something until you have a good handhold on something else.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
People on this forum have commented that the bl12-1 sounds better than the bl4000. What if the margin on the bl12-1 is much greater than the 4000? If I could convert 1/2 of the current 4000 sales to 12-1's, maybe I make more money (I say 1/2 because not everybody likes the 12-1). Best way to convert is to take away the option. Also it is better for the customer because the 12-1s sound better. Also, if some of the 1/2 that don't like the 12-1 "stretch" and buy a more expensive speaker, well that is also a win.
I'm not saying this is what happened, but these are the kind of conversations that go on in companies all the time. Of course, there are very many factors not considered in the above analysis, but these tend to be hard to represent in a spreadsheet so they are easy to overlook. IMHO, this is how many companies run themselves into the ground, but seems to be the approach MBAs prefer (and probably doesn't always fail, especially when management is smart enough to use it as A point of data, rather than THE point of data).
It seems Tue is a "man of action" so we are witnessing "action". Cutting is easier than creating, but sometimes dead wood needs to be cleared so new branches can grow and the tree can survive / thrive. Let's hope there are some new branches on the way...
Long live the bl4000!
Sorry - it seems that I am not quite fitting in with most of you guys
I like the BL4000 - and the BL12 too.
But I have neither of them.
The 4000 is terminated because the sales are decreasing.
That is ok with me - besides they are rather expensive to produce.
They aren't selling because new costumers don't want them/want something else.
You just stick to your BL4000's, if you like them - it is a nice loudspeaker.
And there are plenty of them for sale on the second handmarket.
Bang & Olufsen is not a museum - it is a business company, that has to react to the market as any other company must do to survive and to invent new products.
Grrr! Millemissen
There is a tv - and there is a BV
It seems that what is happening at B&O is rather a gulf between their "low" end Beoplay products and their "high end" Beolab 5/9 Beovision products. It seems they are cutting pretty much anything and everything that has resided in the mid-range or that has been a mainstay of the classic lines. Likely, as a business decision, because these products ARE more costly to produce.
I'm not saying this is right, but fresh meat looking to make a name for himself might believe that restructuring the line this way will generate lots of sales and make him a rockstar to his peers and investors. Note also that the B&O penetration into motor vehicles has vastly increased in just the past 2 years. I was not aware that Mercedes was now offering B&O sound systems and I visit car auctions REGULARLY! So much like Bose, there's going to be an ever increasing audience of people who say "oh, my car sound system is great, what is this brand" and they won't necessarily be the kinds of customers B&O used to cater to that were specifically looking for high end audio. In fact, these aesthetically and brand driven customers are likely to be OK with the slightly higher prices of the BeoPlay lines for most of their average audio needs, but would never have considered the premium Bang and Olufsen primary product lines. The ones who do convert to be "Beophiles", will then be the ones who (at least in what seems like B&O's current thinking) are going to spring for the really nice FULL TV and audio installations with the ultra top range products.
But what do I know, to me the company has been on a downturn ever since eliminating B and O authorized reseller channels that also carried other brands of Hi-Fi. Now I can't even LOOK at B&O gear without traveling at least 300 miles, and I'm in a major metropolis. *eyeroll*.
TWG: But all to be replaced with that Beoplay "garbage"? I don't think that this is the way to go... and seriously, I believe I can do it better than Tue! A company like B&O need to be leaded by an enthusiast with knowledge and love for the company!
But all to be replaced with that Beoplay "garbage"? I don't think that this is the way to go... and seriously, I believe I can do it better than Tue! A company like B&O need to be leaded by an enthusiast with knowledge and love for the company!
To be fair to Tue, some Beoworld users are more "old school" in their thinking than the current customerbase. We look at the BS9000, BL4000 and look back at past glory and wonder why they are being discontinued. They are being discontinued as they aren't selling. People aren't buying these speakers any more. If they were selling, B&O would keep them. It's relatively simple, really :) When products aren't proving popular, you don't keep them going for the sake of it.
As most people know, I'm a massive fan of B&O kit. I've owned most of the speakers. Although I've not owned a pair of BL4000s - even though I'm a fan of their design - I am leaning towards the feeling that a lot of B&O kit (4000s, 6000s, 8000s) comes across as a little dated these days. It looks like well-designed 90s kit, masquerading as up-to-date, modern, expensive, equipment.
If we take off our B&O-history loving hats for a moment and think about the audience for B&O kit in 2013. It must be very difficult trying to sell people some of these speakers. Truth be told, most customers will only use them with a B&O TV or sound system and how many sound systems do B&O sell in 2013? They've cancelled the BS4, for example. The BS5/Encore is the only sound system that remains. That means someone *must* really *want* a BS5/Encore to consider some speakers. Tall order then, as we know the BS5/Encore isn't a top-selling product.
Herein lies the problem: finding a market for B&O speakers in 2013. Convincing people to buy a pair of speakers must be getting much more difficult and there are lot of speaker options - it makes sense for them to be discontinuing some of the poorer selling speakers.
Well argued and I completely agree. I do think it would be nice to have a replacement though as there is nothing really in the range that would be useful as a bookshelf speaker. However you are quite right and this forum is made up of many members who do look at the past more favourably than the future. It must be very difficult to sell premium audio systems at present as the vast majority of music listened to will be from portable devices.
You're right about a gulf.
However, there is much in the pipeline. Unfortunately because B&O don't manufacture exclusively in China, there are some scalability / cost implications that our friends at the large American "One a day, keeps the doc away" company don't have.
The TVs are still expensive. This will begin to change as new modularity starts to embed.
I don't agree with the Peter Bang turning in his grave comment. Today's electronic world is vastly different to years of old. Even some of the finest brands have struggled - not only in the electronic world either. Think Swedish car brand.
However, for an organisation of less than 2k employees worldwide, I think we are moving quickly to deploy some exciting new products that will bridge certain gaps and fill spaces that are being discontinued. You can't make the same things forever.
Gooday!
Hi moxxey, Peter and Dude1,
Nice to see that I am not the only one looking more ahead than beyond.
I expect some nice things coming from Struer.
Not every 'B&O-trad' will like it, but plenty of new costumers out there waiting...
And - moxxey - by the way, B&O is making a well-selling audiosystem - the Playmaker. The bundle with the BL3 has sold well too.
Greetings Millemissen
The PlayMaker was given away for free if you bought a pair of speakers, not because it didn't sell well - around here we saw that the PlayMaker was mainly picked up by existing BeoLab owners and did not create the additional speaker sales that B&O had hoped for. So a combo was offered.
The recent numbers from Struer indicates that they are no longer loosing money, but they have a long way to go before they start to make some serious money again.
I fully agree that we (BeoWorld) tend to be in love with the past. I do remember the comments regarding the BeoSound 9000 vs the Jacob Jensen designs
If we go back 3-4 years, at least in Denmark, B&O were accused of having left a generation behind: the young customers could not find anything within their price range. B&O had become an AV version of Aston Martin. Was BeoPlay the correct answer to this? Time will tell.
A more serious concern of mine is Tue's lack of ability to deliver premium TV's at the correct price point: The V1 is not that far off his goal (goal: BV's should cost 1.5-2x the top-of-range from the competition), but the BV11 is just to expensive for what it is. The current 7-55 and BV12 are excellent, but customers can get a Sony 84" 4K flagship for the same kind of money - and the Sony is just amazing: even with 1080p source material it makes current Full-HD TV's seem outdated.
The TVs frankly make no sense to me. I have leaned against putting my opinions on the TVs out there because, frankly, I'm sure other audiophiles could say the same to me about my interest in B&O gear in general. And now, having gone on a B&O "binge" of late, I am discovering how much I love all of these pieces from when I was growing up.
That said, substantively, I see very beautiful designs with very unique connectivity and speaker arrangements, but nothing that necessarily puts the picture out ahead of the other major players in the market. In the case of the B&O audio gear, I actually find it to SOUND better than most of what's out there.
It's the same kind of feeling that comes up when people extoll the virtues of Apple making a television. I simply don't see it, but in Apple's case, it will likely have some key differentiating factors that have nothing to do with the picture. And that being said, if Apple does introduce a television, B&O will have a likely problem on their hands. No one and I mean no one is making money in the television industry right now, so I assume B&O are maintaining and expanding their television line right now specifically because the prices are so high they can make SOME money over and above the key picture components. I don't know how long that will be a feasible business plan for the visual side of the business, though. Perhaps if B&O can get manufacturing agreements for early access to 4K or OLED panels, they'll be able to capitalize on the early access to those markets. I'd agree that the "1.5-2x" higher pricepoint Roger mentioned would probably be OK.
As for the playmaker, I am surprised that uptake hasn't been more intense. It seems to combine everything that's fantastic about B&O speakers with modern musical sources that no longer come from a "device" but rather a "network". It also surprises me that there is a grand total of ZERO playmakers available second hand through Ebay or Amazon considering the device's relatively modest price-point. One could certainly buy much crappier gear for 425.00.
The selling feature of B&O TVs was always that they had a good picture, as good as the best available, but especially good sound and integration. Surround sound on a B&O TV was always streets ahead of anything else I had heard. The problem with TVs like the BV11 is that because it has to be slim, the sound quality suffers. It is still better than an average flat screen set, but it is not that much better. Couple this with the inability to compare like with like in a showroom and one can understand why they are tricky to sell. I remember when I was a student, going into Windows in Newcastle and being shown the difference between a B&O TV and a good Panasonic/Sony. It was obvious why it cost more - even my father who really cared nothing for brands bought a Beovision 3400SJ as it was clearly so much better.
Playdrv4me: As for the playmaker, I am surprised that uptake hasn't been more intense. It seems to combine everything that's fantastic about B&O speakers with modern musical sources that no longer come from a "device" but rather a "network".
As for the playmaker, I am surprised that uptake hasn't been more intense. It seems to combine everything that's fantastic about B&O speakers with modern musical sources that no longer come from a "device" but rather a "network".
There's one simple reason why I haven't taken my Airport Express devices and replaced them with a Playmaker: the Playmaker lacks any of the extended wireless functionality which is essential. I live in a house built in around 1770, with thick stone walls. The Airport Express device makes the extension of my wireless network, their number one selling point, sadly.
Personally, I can't see why anyone would want to buy a small white plastic box and connect £6000 (BL9) speakers to it. Why would anyone want to do that? Part of the reason many of us buy B&O has always been to show it off. We're proud of the kit. Which audiophile would proudly show off the functionality of their white plastic Playmaker unit? :)
On a sidenote, I've just reported myself and Peter for derailing this BL4000 topic. Peter, consider yourself self-banned for a week.
moxxey: Playdrv4me: As for the playmaker, I am surprised that uptake hasn't been more intense. It seems to combine everything that's fantastic about B&O speakers with modern musical sources that no longer come from a "device" but rather a "network". Personally, I can't see why anyone would want to buy a small white plastic box and connect £6000 (BL9) speakers to it. Why would anyone want to do that?
Personally, I can't see why anyone would want to buy a small white plastic box and connect £6000 (BL9) speakers to it. Why would anyone want to do that?
Sure, that makes sense. But not everyone owns BL9s, either. *AND* more importantly in this hybrid day and age of old colliding with new, not everyone owns the highest quality physical media anymore to make the speakers sing, yet the speakers are still fantastic enough that those who don't are very happy with them in comparison to a lot of the garbage you can otherwise buy today. This is essentially me. In my case the PlayMaker would essentially serve the exact purpose an entire BeoCenter 2500 is currently serving in a rather more logistically elegant fashion IF it had an IR remote control, which I don't believe it does. Right now, I have a BeoCenter 2500 strictly because it was amongst the last great looking pieces of B&O kit that still had two way capability. Which, in turn, makes it work with my favorite B&O product which is the BL7000. Unfortunately, it really just ends up being an AUX bridge to my BL4000s from my Apple TV which is in turn connected through my flat panel (as a "source switcher") and then to the BC2500's aux jack.
This works almost flawlessly, except that the poor BC2500 is horrible overkill for this purpose, and the BL7000 doesn't work well when the BC2500 is in AUX mode. Ideally, if it weren't for the nostalgic side of me, the PlayMaker would be the perfect complement to my BL4000s speaking from a strictly logistical standpoint, if it had IR my Harmony universal remote, which still gets the lion's share of day to day use, could control (I believe it is operated by an App or by the new series of B&O wifi remotes). So I'm going to do the next best (and far more attractive) thing. I am going to set the BC2500 up elsewhere as a standalone system, and put a BM7000 receiver in its place. For the average person who isn't a nostalgia freak like I am, though, the Playmaker would more than suffice in this situation. I do agree that they missed the mark with the design, though. It looks like a pool drain cover. As a side note, the BL4000s in particular are a little unique in that honestly they could be connected to just about any receiver with variable audio out over the Line output, as the BL4000s have the ability to run a Line input from any piece of audio gear. Heck, if my TV had VARIABLE audio out instead of fixed, the Apple TV and the flat panel are all I would even need. I just can't bring myself to run them without a nice piece of B&O source gear in some form or fashion though. I guess I'm just a little crazy that way.
I realize that sounds like I'm defending modern B&O when I just said that I preferred the classic products, but I do appreciate where they tried to go with the PM.
Playdrv4me:In my case the PlayMaker would essentially serve the exact purpose an entire BeoCenter 2500 is currently serving in a rather more logistically elegant fashion IF it had an IR remote control, which I don't believe it does.
It certainly does! The obvious downside would be that you would then need to leave it in view. I don't have a problem with the design per se, but it is kind of sad to think how much nicer it could've been. Even if made of plastic.
* * *
About the ending of Beolab 4000... if somebody doesn't like that, then how about going and buying a pair while they are still available? If you are like me and belong to the 5 billion+ people who never bought it, I don't think there's much base for us to complain about B&O going to give it the axe. If it sold enough, it would surely stay. Same with the BS9000 - any number of people thinking it is iconic isn't going to create any business, if all of them already own one or aren't going to buy one, because it is ultimately a posh display stand for a hopelessly small amount of obsolete music media.
--mika
tournedos: Playdrv4me:In my case the PlayMaker would essentially serve the exact purpose an entire BeoCenter 2500 is currently serving in a rather more logistically elegant fashion IF it had an IR remote control, which I don't believe it does. It certainly does! The obvious downside would be that you would then need to leave it in view. I don't have a problem with the design per se, but it is kind of sad to think how much nicer it could've been. Even if made of plastic. * * * About the ending of Beolab 4000... if somebody doesn't like that, then how about going and buying a pair while they are still available? If you are like me and belong to the 5 billion+ people who never bought it, I don't think there's much base for us to complain about B&O going to give it the axe. If it sold enough, it would surely stay. Same with the BS9000 - any number of people thinking it is iconic isn't going to create any business, if all of them already own one or aren't going to buy one, because it is ultimately a posh display stand for a hopelessly small amount of obsolete music media.
In that case, it's so attractively priced that I may seriously consider acquiring one at some point. I assume the RJ45 speaker connections can be adapted to the power link standard.
I can't really refute your points about the BS9000, as pretty as it is.
Playdrv4me:I assume the RJ45 speaker connections can be adapted to the power link standard.