How does the Beolab 5 stack up against the top of the line B&W 800s/802s/Dynaudios etc

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Beology Posted: Sat, Mar 16 2013 11:00 AM

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Hi there guys,

I'm aware that there was a brief discussion comparing beolab 9's with 802s on the old forum. Im interested in getting some fresh opinions on where the lab 5s fit in with other high end speakers.

I listend to some 802s today (with expensive amps etc that put their total price at near double the 5s) and I was impressed but not in all aspects. The 5s were better in many ways (i am of course biased) but some of imaging and resolution of the 802s was impressive. 

Id be interested in the thoughts of those who have had (or do have) the 5s and top end speakers from alternative manufacturers on how they compare.

Regards,

Justin

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Beology replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 7:30 AM

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Hi Rauber,

I've managed to find a few discussions on the old forum now with arguments going both ways as far these speakers are concerned with some suggesting the 5s are better (a user Soundproof)

Have you listened to high resolution files on the lab 5 speakers in a similar environment to the B & W, so apples are compared with apples?

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Millemissen replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 8:56 AM

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Hi Raeuber,

I once heard a similar setup at the ICEPower-location in Copenhagen.

The sound is amazing .   But the setup is ugly looking

Greeting Millemissen

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Raeuber replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 10:07 AM

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Millemissen:

Hi Raeuber,

I once heard a similar setup at the ICEPower-location in Copenhagen.

The sound is amazing . But the setup is ugly looking

Greeting Millemissen

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Chris Townsend replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 10:52 AM

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So to some up, the £20,000 B&W speaker with a £15,000 Amp is better than the B&O speaker at £15,000 which doesn't need an amp(but looks super cool)

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Peter replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 2:42 PM

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B&O were developing some very high end speakers when I was last in Struer. Still at development stage when listened to and I would in no way describe myself as having even half decent ears, but Geoff Martin was very pleased with them!!

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Jeff replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 3:32 PM

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One of the things I've noticed, for me anyway, about B&W speakers is that like many audiophile speakers they are voiced to exaggerate detail. There are several reasons for this, from frequency response decisions emphasizing the presence area (upper mids, lower treble) to issues with the rigid drivers B&W likes to use generating subharmonics and self induced noise. At first blush, this sounds kind of exciting, why, listen to that, I never heard that before! To my ears, however, after a very short while this sound becomes tiring, I tend to get listener fatigue from a lot of high end speakers that I never get from B&O gear (or things like old Tannoys for example). Your ears may not do the same, but it's something to be aware of that doesn't show up in a short dealer audition. Something to consider before dropping 70k+ on a setup!

I've seen similar things happen when people swap out capacitors in crossover networks for whatever the latest, super duper film cap or such of the day is. Often these caps, when compared to what the designer chose, particularly if the designer used standard electrolytics, have less insertion loss/series resistance than the lytics. The result is a small shift in crossover freq, but more importantly a shift in loudness of the driver attached to the cap, usually mids and tweeters. Perceived as an increase in detail, it's actually changing the target response the designer worked very hard to achieve. You may like it better, you may not, or as is often the case you may like it at first then get tired of it, sell the speakers, get another pair, then do the same to them!  

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butch1 replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 5:47 PM

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Sound quality is a personal choice,and all the manufactureres have their own inhouse delivery  signature sound.ie bright,rich,detailed etc.

My father has lab 5s,and I have had long listening sessions with them at my house also.I wanted to love them,for my music room,as that is my passion.They are very impressive for the price as the amps are built in with plenty of powere and bass,but thats not everything when buying a speaker.

I settled on a linn system,which in my opinion was in a different league,regarding sound quality,delivery of the music,detail was to my ears better.

Granted it cost more, factoring in source,control ,amplication and playback,but listening to my linn downloads through a linn playback system produces a fantastic sound.

I am not one for ugly boxes and fancy cables,I like well made and designed simple system,which produces a sound that it was built to do,and the linn does that.I have also listened to another linn system which came to under 15k and it sounded better than the lab 5s.

I love b&O and have always been a fan,and its speakers are fantastic for the price and look good,but I am not brainwashed enough to know that I can get better sound from other brands.

If you area 50/50 movies and music fan,they fit the bill linked to a beovision,but for serious music listening,they can be bettered for less.

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beoinbuff replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 6:37 PM

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I used to think I was going to keep my lab5s until they essentially died. That's changed

Recently hooked the lab5s digitally to a lyngdorf DPA-1 preamp with room perfect room correction and the sound is really incredible.  Best I've ever gotten out of the speakers.  However, one of the tweeters is not working correctly when the speakers are played via dig coax in.  After repeated attempts to get the speakers fixed through B&O and essentially no response from them, I went to a local high end audio shop just to see what else is out there.

Long story short, I am now expecting the delivery of new Sonus Faber speakers and Mcintosh amps.  The sound from that combo is just out of this world and sold me the instant I heard it.  The lab5s are great, great speakers and I feel sad giving them up but B&Os horrible customer service and the proprietary connections and remotes they use have driven me to it. 

I still feel that, for the price, the lab5s are one of the better values out there.  I paid a lot more for my new speakers and amps, but the sound is on par with the increase in price.

My 2 cents

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Jeff replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 6:49 PM

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butch1:

Sound quality is a personal choice,and all the manufactureres have their own inhouse delivery  signature sound.ie bright,rich,detailed etc.

Very true, different people will prefer different voicing in speakers. Back in the day, there used to be the West Coast sound, typified by JBL L100 speakers, the New England sound, as put forth by Advent and AR, the British sound, KEF and such, German sound was more clinical (think ADS and Braun) while the British was more laid back and polite. West Coast was big on bass and brightness, New England was closer to the old British sound.

And speakers are so room dependent that what you hear at home will almost never be what you get in the store. That being said, even though it's personal taste there are some speakers which have measurable faults that still seem to be preferred by many, so technical perfection, if such a thing is even possible in a speaker, often doesn't seem to matter.

To my ears, the Lab 5's are voiced very well, and also to me to be an ultimate high end speaker the speaker should reproduce the bottom octaves with weight and authority and accuracy. Many will spend more on small monitors they feel get the midrange more "right" to their ears and eschew deep bass.

Also, again to my ears, I don't tend to like speakers designed with rigid drivers, be it metal domes, kevlar or other rigid woofer materials, etc. If you examine the time domain response of these units you often find excessive hash due to breakup modes in the driver that you don't find in more well damped, flexible driver materials like soft dome tweeters made of doped fabric, poly or even treated paper cones, etc. Obviously I'm sensitive to and dislike rigid drivers, to other ears they obviously sound more detailed or such. In addition to time domain issues there are issues of self induced noise, out of band resonance products generating sub harmonics in the audible bandwidth of the driver, etc. I've found designing with rigid drivers to require, if you are going to get the best results, a lot more hair pulling in the crossover and ranges chosen for the driver to operate over than it's worth, I've gotten better results more simply with other approaches.

I know a speaker designer of some note who, when designing a top of the line product for his line was told by the marketing department that at that price point and market it had to have a metal dome tweeter. It took him quite a while to find one that he could actually live with the sound of, and it wasn't cheap, but the buyers in that market had been marketed to the point where they assumed it was a better approach and that was more important than actually listening to it and making a judgment based on sound without caring about the technology. Audio is often as much about current fashion as it is about true performance sadly.

There was also a time when to have a "serious" digital playback rig you had to have a separate transport and DAC, even though many of the had measurably and demonstrably worse performance than all in one CD players. The assumption was that this was better so it was what sold. Audio is a funny business.

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Peter replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 8:56 PM

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Agree completely! Speaking to someone who writes for Hi-Fi magazines, he describes a lot of the new audiophile equipment as appalling and some which actually does not work. Unfortunately, they cannot 'dish the dirt' as so much of their income comes from advertising and a true exposé would be impossible.

My favourite sound comes from Quad ESL63 speakers - totally impossible to use in a normal house as they need far too much room to perform so I use LS3/5As which mimic them badly but are much smaller. Superb mid-range and no treble or bass! Reproduce human voice wonderfully though.

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soundproof replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 9:33 PM

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The Audio Dept. at Struer actually used B&W top-of-the-line speakers for comparison tests when doing their development work for, among other speakers, the BeoLab 5s.

I've done my own comparison, some years ago now. I bought a pair of BeoLab 5s after this. The B&W speakers were run with Classé mono-blocks. I guess most people don't go to this much effort when running comparisons, but I wasn't in a second's doubt as to which delivery I preferred.

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Beology replied on Sun, Mar 17 2013 11:09 PM

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Now thats a comparison!

Theres just to many confounders when listening to one set of speakers and then another when time, space and sources are all different. Your memory plays tricks and room acoustics are very important.

I was impressed with the detail in one song I heard on the B&Ws compared with the 5s but I suspect that relates to the source material being different. The other the 5s were clearly better to my ears.

Thanks for the photo and your opinion Soundproof!

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Jeff replied on Mon, Mar 18 2013 1:33 AM

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Harman has the best speaker comparison setup I've ever heard of. They have a large, dead silent, rapidly rotatable pair of turntables large enough to sit big floor standing speakers on, behind a grill cloth curtain. You can put three pair of speakers on it and switch between them almost as rapidly as switching between electronic components. Its the only setup I've heard of that allows proper double blind, rapid switching listening tests to be done with speakers. Want to evaluate the same speaker with small changes in crossovers or power response? No problem. Really an amazing setup. 

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soundproof replied on Mon, Mar 18 2013 8:15 AM

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Yes, comparing speakers when they're not in the same room is tricky business. As Harman have realized, they should be in the exact same position - to have similar interaction with the room.

When I last moved, to protect them I placed the BL5s up against the back wall away from the preferred position out on the floor. On a whim, I connected them there, to listen: what if they would actually sound better there, instead of where I had them for several years?

I could soon relax, they had terribly muddled bass, in comparison, when up against the wall. Unfortunately, we find them up against walls in most dealerships. B&O never did a good job of introducing these speakers to the market - the "place them wherever you want" line doing them particular harm.

I did the comparison in a very good studio, and it was fun to hear people ask "where are the amplifiers?" They couldn't believe the sound.
For what they cost, BL5s are a bargain, you have to spend a lot more on a conventional system to approximate the sound. But they deserve to be set up right, preferably in a symmetrical room, with adequate distances to the side and back walls, and ideally so that you get the lateral reflections that are the main point of the acoustic lenses.

They're also dependent upon the structure they are in. If it's a wooden floor house with walls that give when the bass starts working, then you won't get as precisely defined a bass as you do in a structure with greater integrity - but that also goes for other speakers. But as the BL5s are powered to drive the bass, and it shifts considerable air volume, structural integrity helps the bass become very defined.

B&O deserves credit for having carried out the BeoLab 5 development program. It was unfortunately begun by a CEO who had to leave the company before they were completed, and they were launched under a new CEO, who had other priorities. If B&O had pushed active speakers and ALT-technology, with room correction, at that time, the company would have been leading this area now. Instead, the whole concept was presented badly to the market, the room-correction crew jumped ship and went to Lyngdorf. Water under the bridge, I guess.

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Beology replied on Mon, Mar 18 2013 9:16 AM

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Again, nice picture Soundproof.

Do you have any thoughts on a preamp being used with Lab 5's as per an earlier comment?

I'd like to get my speakers further from the wall but I'm at the limit of the WAF (wife approval factor) at 50cm..... I guess it'll have to do.

Ciao

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Jeff replied on Mon, Mar 18 2013 2:55 PM

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You of course make an excellent point about care in speaker placement and room layout. And for "lifestyle" products like B&O I think it's too rare for that to be done well, I suspect most are placed where they look good, but at least a lot of the Beolabs have switches to account for boundary loading in the bass, wall, corner, free space. That's better than most speakers. 

In my last house I had my BL8000s setup very well, I experimented with positioning quite a bit. And while some kind of denigrate this speaker, I got very impressive results. Setup well these speakers are capable of great transparency, depth, and imaging with smooth treble and amazing midrange. Shoved up flat against the wall, not so much. 

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VANTAGE replied on Mon, Mar 18 2013 3:29 PM

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I have just purchased a pair of BL5s, and can honestly say that the difference vs. my previous BL8000/BL2 combo is staggering: much more tight and precise bass (the BL2 is great for movies, but too aggressive for music listening), much more detail (I am rediscovering some of my music) and better stereo perspective (I guess thanks to ALT). Yes, they are very powerful, but the sound quality springs to mind first when I have to describe them.

I guess that it is probably possible to find better on the market, but at a price: a pair of B&W Diamond is roughly the same price as the BL5s, but then you have to add the price of an amplifier/pre-amplifier (McIntosh springs to mind). You easily end up paying twice as much, as there is no point in having such loudspeakers with a cheap/crap amplifier. And then there's the problem of home integration: lots of cables floating around in a non-B&O solution, which I have to say I'm happy to avoid in my living room with my 100% B&O solution.

Just my 2 cents...

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Peter replied on Mon, Mar 18 2013 4:01 PM

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I don't think anyone would deny that the BL5s are superb speakers. They may not be what everyone likes though - this is why one must listen to speakers first. The major quality I found listening to them is the way that if you close your eyes, you cannot hear where they are. The music is simply there. That trumps even the massive and well controlled bass. My M100s and my ex MS150s had stunning bass but neither can pull off the disappearing trick like the BL5.

My only criticism , and this goes for all the ALT speakers is that they are a little bit bright for me and I find that tiring to listen to. The BL5s seem the least affected by this.

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butch1 replied on Mon, Mar 18 2013 7:50 PM

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Agree with Peter,regarding ALT.I have to admit,I like the old school seductive B&O sound.I find the new sound due to ALT a bit in your face and bright for my preference,saying that ALT speakers sound good with electronic music.

My tastes suit a warm rich sound,thats why I still love my 8000s and 4000s in my movie room,and they still sound fantastic at normal volumes.The room has a hardwood floor so the warm sound balances itself out.

My music room is carpeted and has treatment so is tailored to my sound.The biggest problem with lab 5 customers is they are placed in the wrong room,and dont get a change to breathe and show what they can do.My dads were in  a large open-plan roof with very high ceilings,and they sounded tremendous.

When he moved them to a cinema room which was smaller,they sounded nowhere near as good.Adaptive bass works,but not miracles.Buy speakers for your size of room,and also get a home demo if you can,every room will affect the sound.

my 2 cents

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soundproof replied on Mon, Mar 18 2013 10:38 PM

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Beology:

Do you have any thoughts on a preamp being used with Lab 5's as per an earlier comment?

I used to have a Mac mini and CD-player connected to a soundcard, running S/PDIF to the BL5. Now I think I would use Oppo's latest multi-format player, it has several IN connections I can use, will read just about any format and is simply brilliant.

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-105/images/BDP-105-Back-hr.jpg

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Doonesbury replied on Tue, Mar 19 2013 10:38 PM

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butch1:

When he moved them to a cinema room which was smaller,they sounded nowhere near as good.Adaptive bass works,but not miracles.Buy speakers for your size of room,and also get a home demo if you can,every room will affect the sound.

 

my 2 cents

Do you know the dimensions of the cinema room including ceiling height?

D

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butch1 replied on Wed, Mar 20 2013 10:06 AM

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5m x 5.5m x 2.4m roughly.