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Here is a possibility of a slight improvement. The use of the term "vintage", on Beoworld is not consistent:
In the media section (http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/media/g/vintage/default.aspx), "vintage" is defined as equipment manufactured prior to 1980 but in forum part (http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/28.aspx) means "vintage" everything older than 30 years.
With the last definition, equipment like BM 6000 and BM 8000 is not covered, while the latter declaration includes Beocenter 9000 and early Red Line speakers.
What should the term "vintage" mean?
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http://tinyurl.com/qj9cjsf
The Oxford English Dictionary defines Vintage as a high quality article from the past (no definite age) and no longer manufactured.
ie a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud would be vintage, but a Citroen 2CV of the same age would not.
Ron
In the past, I would have argued that anything before the advent of the Beolink 1000 remote codes would be vintage. This was the device that turned B&O from an audio company that did TVs as well into a company that sold integrated AV systems.
However it clearly gets more difficult the more time that passes!!
The other cut of times would be:
The introduction of the Beomaster 900 (Master 610)
The introduction of the BM1900
Or if you want a later one (!), the introduction of ML.
All of these can be a bit blurry!
Peter
Is "vintage" a fixed point in time, or relative to the current time? 1980 or 30 yrs ago? This is a lot like the use of the phrase "back in the day" where several friends, old as I am and older, insist that it has to be at least 20 years ago to be something that happened "back in the day." 5 or 10 or even 15 years ago is not acceptable.
I'd say without question it's a relative scale, but so often manufacturers who have been around a while have gone from producing great things to cheap and forgetable crap, so that argues for a precise fixed point. '
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff:Is "vintage" a fixed point in time, or relative to the current time? 1980 or 30 yrs ago? This is a lot like the use of the phrase "back in the day" where several friends, old as I am and older, insist that it has to be at least 20 years ago to be something that happened "back in the day." 5 or 10 or even 15 years ago is not acceptable.
My personal definition is: anything that a normal sane person (sorry, vintage fans) would or could use daily to do the tasks that you can do with current products that anybody can buy retail today = NOT vintage. This implies limits due to functionality, but also excessive maintenance due to old age, etc.
For example, I don't consider a BS5500 vintage, even if it's 25 years old. You can take the most up-to-date remote (Beo6) and and control it to listen to CDs and radio just as well as any current product that receives radio and plays CDs. It'll be vintage the day normal people don't listen to CDs and radio. On the other hand, any valve radio will be vintage because it is just unpractical for the normal user.
It's also a sliding definition - perhaps because the start of industrialization itself moves farther back each year. I could now register my daily driver as an oldtimer, if they hadn't moved the age limit from 25 years to 30 years some time back But I wouldn't use it as a daily driver if it didn't do the tasks of any modern car. When it was made, the motor car was an about 100 year old invention. It'll soon be 130, or 30% older than "back in the day"
--mika
Peter:In the past, I would have argued that anything before the advent of the Beolink 1000 remote codes would be vintage.
I'd vote for that one. Of course there's the odd quirk of the BS 5000 being considered vintage whereas the BS 5500 wouldn't be.
tamtapir: Here is a possibility of a slight improvement. The use of the term "vintage", on Beoworld is not consistent: In the media section (http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/media/g/vintage/default.aspx), "vintage" is defined as equipment manufactured prior to 1980 but in forum part (http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/28.aspx) means "vintage" everything older than 30 years. With the last definition, equipment like BM 6000 and BM 8000 is not covered, while the latter declaration includes Beocenter 9000 and early Red Line speakers. What should the term "vintage" mean? /***
Well - 3 years ago, the two definitions were equal...
tournedos: On the other hand, any valve radio will be vintage because it is just unpractical for the normal user.
On the other hand, any valve radio will be vintage because it is just unpractical for the normal user.
A funny remark is that my Brother's girlfriend want my Grand Prix 610 so bad to play mp3's with her iPhone 5
"Vintage" is definitely not an objective age; The amplifier designs of the Beomaster 3400 from 1975 has the same basic output amplifier as a 20 year newer Beomaster 7000. The Touch sensitive surface of a 1999 Beocenter 9300 derives from the 1976 Beomaster 1900. DataLink codes were implemented in 1980 with the Beolab 8000, but used way into the 00's.
I would vote that 1987 seems to be a transition year as they, by that time, had discontinued the typical top of the line system that they have had since the early 60's in favour of the Beosystem 5500. The whole Beolab 6000/8000 range had disappeared (serious cassette decks, record decks with the best possible specifications and technology, the pinnacle of amplifier technology), along with the improved uniphase speakers.
Vinyl records, cassettes, open reel, valve amplifiers and film photography.
Steffen: Well - 3 years ago, the two definitions were equal...
Good observation!
I find the idea of if it still uses the same remote codes or plays a current format interesting. Certainly I consider tube gear vintage, even though tube equipment is still being made, if it's old enough that is. No doubt things like my old McIntosh MC240 amp should be called vintage. 9 tubes in total. My quirky Karlson speaker cabinet with Allied Radio triaxial 12 inch driver in it, vintage. Is my HK integrated amp vintage? 1978 manufacture date? Solid state, but no remote.
I define the use of wood as vintage.....
x:________________________
Definitely a moving target here. My vote would be for any design past the 5000 | 5500 | 6500 | 7500 era as B&O Vintage.
Wood will come back. Mark my words.
Very soon vintage will mean everything made before digital storage. :-)
FlintIronstag:Wood will come back. Mark my words.
It already did - see A9 legs - but most folks seem to think it is totally out of place as B&O has always been glass + aluminum
I'll rephrase... anything that is old and made with wood is vintage in my books
I'd say anything that is pre masterlink Beo1000/Beo4 - and then that will become vintage once the new standard is common spread - although B&O thankfully do make things backwardly compatible - so the line between vintage and modern blurs.
I seriously think the "wood" comments are correct. If you take when B&O stopped using wood or veneers on products it also marks the introduction of powerlink and the Beolink 1000 remote codes. BM6000 and 8000 are vintage but BM5500 is modern. The 5000 was sort of available with wood veneer so that gets round that one which other wise is a bit in the middle. All the uniphase speakers are vintage. Redlines and Pentas still look great in modern settings.
My preferance is for stuff from the early 60's or thereabouts so really vintage should be anything with enough valves in that you can warm the room whilst listening to music!
FlintIronstag: Wood will come back. Mark my words.
According to my uncle, who used to sell B&O, one of the selling points of buying B&O, particularly through the 70/80s, was that B&O products were mostly made out of wood (thus, solid). Even the TVs. There's some truth in that, I guess, but some users still believe it's true in 2013. At least two people have told me that the BL9's or BL5's are heavy "because they are made from wood"!
Simple: Anything older than me (or you).
ɓʋɾɑɳɫɘɮ: Simple: Anything older than me (or you).
Oh, I dont have Anything vintage....
blah-blah and photographs as needed
"Vintage" is originally only used for wines, coming from "vendage" in older French (sale for you and me), which means "yield from a vineyard".
Its meaning wandered, with some confusion perhaps with the suffix "age", which has in fact nothing to do with age, but shows the action of the verb, like in "camouflage". Thus it slowly began to refer to the year of the wine, possibly in the 18th century.
In English, mileage is another example.
Now, of course, it refers to anything being of an earlier time, with a bit of nostalgia perhaps. Also a commercial argument to sell oldies - junk? - even in appalling condition...
"Vintage" is unfortunately on the verge of purely becoming a fashion term, which I do not like at all. I actually much prefer the simpler word "old".
It still refers to the age of a particular wine, of course !
Jacques
chartz: It still refers to the age of a particular wine, of course !
Mais, bien sur!
My sister sells vintage furniture and cloths so asked her last night she said that the dealers refer to it as anything pre 1990 and is fashionable again / any crap she can buy for a £5 at a car boot sale, tart up and sell at a vintage fair for £50, to some want to be trendy idiot.
B&O feature in this months vintage explorer magazine, unfortunately need to be a member to read the article, which I am not
http://www.vintagexplorer.co.uk/index.php?option=com_redshop&view=product&pid=103&cid=15&Itemid=56
Will try and get the copy of her and scan it next time I see her in a month
I Have uploaded a pdf of an article that was in Vintage Explorer magazine from March 2013 about B&O vintage equipment.
http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/media/p/64489.aspx
Hope some of you find in interesting.
Toby
OK that did not work, how do I upload a pdf?
Should we also define classical different to vintage ?
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
Vintage B&O?
I use the term old school B&O myself and even named my personal thread on hifi4all.dk that. It is in Danish though and has been going since 2008. It covers my experience with the B&O I like and live with on a day to day basis.
http://www.hifi4all.dk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66882&PN=1
Vintage I guess is just another word for old school like a synonym or something. When is B&O old school? Before they went on to make Beolab speakers? Before the technologi went digital only? The good old Jacob Jensen days?
I do not have a clear answer to that one. It is a broad minded term indeed.
My Beosystem 6500 is from 1991. I am the second owner. Does it feel vintage or old? Nope!
My Beosystem 6000 is from 1981 or so. I am not aware how many owners there have been. Does it feel vintage like or old? or compared to the 6500? I got a CD6500 connected but otherwise? The design is of course different but I can't say what is ultimately the best of the two. The only thing to really say its vintage or old are when it needs service or rebuild 20 odd years later.
tamtapir:What should the term "vintage" mean?
Every thing you bought recently ! :-0
valve1: tamtapir:What should the term "vintage" mean? Every thing you bought recently ! :-0
I rather like the sound of retro wood in more ways than one.
Like this idea http://www.ruarkaudio.com/products/r7-preview