ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Chris Townsend:If the video side of things finished, there would be very little of B&O to interest me in the future that others cannot supply.
Totally agree
I think bno handled the transition from analogue to digital very poorly and it's come back to bite them. Their arrogance over the years hasn't helped them either.
personally I think with the tragic death of David Lewis , much of the soull of the company has gone too.
Doesnt help that most of the new designs are truly awful either....
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Flappo: I think bno handled the transition from analogue to digital very poorly and it's come back to bite them. Their arrogance over the years hasn't helped them either.
One really odd thing I found today was that they are still promoting products that are unavailable: http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en-GB/picture/beovision-10
They show a black-framed BV10. My dealer even gave me a black-framed BV10 life-sized poster to place on the wall. I get excited as it's a perfect fit and works very well with my black-framed paintings in the same room. I ask about ordering a black-framed BV10-32 and found the black framed version is discontinued and can't be ordered. None available anywhere :(
It seems to me that the lack of public strategy reflects the current focus on the BeoPlay line. That line doesn't need a strategy per se, just a steady diet of great fun products. The A3 may have been something of a flop, but flops are more easily absorbed in a sub-brand like Play. By and large the feedback on the stuff has been great.
If we think back to the years and years of MasterLink I'm not sure that Bang & Olufsen ever clearly communicated a "strategy" in the sense that people seem to be hungering for here. ML implied capabilities, but the brand was always driven by the amazing individual products and not the ML backbone (though it was crucial to growing sales, versus originating them).
So there's already NetLink products in the field. More are coming. More features are coming online shortly. Just as ML before it, NetLink will live and die by the amazing products that feature it, not the inherent concept itself. I think that we'll see some pretty amazing stuff coming out this year, but I always think that.
TripEnglish:................. just a steady diet of great fun products. The A3 may have been something of a flop, but flops are more easily absorbed in a sub-brand like Play
If these products are designed and developed by a third party then this is probably OK, if they are taking up significant Struer resources (in the broadest sense of the word) I would question whether it is the best use of those limited resources at this time.
I do agree that it is unrealistic to expect a complete NetLink system to be unveiled in one splurge however releasing details of the capabilities of NetLink, present and future, together with a vision of a NetLinked house's capabilities would certainly do no harm in reassuring the faithful.
Ban boring signatures!
The report from Handelsbanken to their clients regarding B and O makes for interesting reading and perhaps goes someway to explaining the dramatic fall in the share price
here is a link
P52724PR7e56a20-9054.pdf
Tue will really have to pull the rabbit out of the hat next week !!!!!!!!!!
I hope they do manage to turn the corner and inspire us fans yet again !!!!!
MichaelMiles: The report from Handelsbanken to their clients regarding B and O makes for interesting reading and perhaps goes someway to explaining the dramatic fall in the share price
Although that covers pretty much everything we already know, it does emphasise that B&O would be wise getting out the TV business and concentrating on it's audio core (which is something I don't want to happen, personally).
BTW can anyone find me a black-framed BV10-32? :)
TripEnglish:It seems to me that the lack of public strategy reflects the current focus on the BeoPlay line. That line doesn't need a strategy per se, just a steady diet of great fun products. The A3 may have been something of a flop, but flops are more easily absorbed in a sub-brand like Play. By and large the feedback on the stuff has been great. If we think back to the years and years of MasterLink I'm not sure that Bang & Olufsen ever clearly communicated a "strategy" in the sense that people seem to be hungering for here. ML implied capabilities, but the brand was always driven by the amazing individual products and not the ML backbone (though it was crucial to growing sales, versus originating them). So there's already NetLink products in the field. More are coming. More features are coming online shortly. Just as ML before it, NetLink will live and die by the amazing products that feature it, not the inherent concept itself. I think that we'll see some pretty amazing stuff coming out this year, but I always think that.
Puncher:If these products are designed and developed by a third party then this is probably OK, if they are taking up significant Struer resources (in the broadest sense of the word) I would question whether it is the best use of those limited resources at this time.
MichaelMiles:The report from Handelsbanken to their clients regarding B and O makes for interesting reading and perhaps goes someway to explaining the dramatic fall in the share price here is a link P52724PR7e56a20-9054.pdf Tue will really have to pull the rabbit out of the hat next week !!!!!!!!!! I hope they do manage to turn the corner and inspire us fans yet again !!!!!
ouverture: Puncher: If these products are designed and developed by a third party then this is probably OK, if they are taking up significant Struer resources (in the broadest sense of the word) I would question whether it is the best use of those limited resources at this time. a bit of both it looks like, take these 4 x B&O Play designs in the Spring/Summer 2012 A5 book Beoplay A8 David Lewis davidlewisdesigners.com Beoplay A3 Steffan Schmelling schmelling.com Beoplay V1 Anders Hermansen hermansenprojects.com Beolit 12 Cecile Manz cecillemanz.com
Puncher: If these products are designed and developed by a third party then this is probably OK, if they are taking up significant Struer resources (in the broadest sense of the word) I would question whether it is the best use of those limited resources at this time.
OK, but there's also Engineering design & development (electronic and mechanical), testing, mould tools to pay for etc. Lots of smallish products in development at the same time can play havoc with your development resources.
moxxey: MichaelMiles: The report from Handelsbanken to their clients regarding B and O makes for interesting reading and perhaps goes someway to explaining the dramatic fall in the share price Although that covers pretty much everything we already know, it does emphasise that B&O would be wise getting out the TV business and concentrating on it's audio core (which is something I don't want to happen, personally). BTW can anyone find me a black-framed BV10-32? :)
I guess we all read different meanings but I do not see any faith by Handelsbanken in audio products unless they can be reinvented. The comment video has not been profitable for the last 10 years makes me question if Netlink has a chance to survive? Without Audio and Video what good is net link?
expoman: Without Audio and Video what good is net link?
That's the problem.
4 beolab 5, beolab 9, beolab 10, beolab 5000, beolab 8000 mk2, beolab 6002, beolab 3500, beovision 7 55 mk2, 2 beovision 11 46 mk4, beotime, beosound ouverture, beosound essence, beoplay A8, beomaster 900 RG de luxe and the collection continues...
From my point of view the Handelsbanken report is a shot in the head.No serious investor will buy the shares knowing this recommendation. I would think, other analysts from other organizations have similar reports.A very bad outlook into near/midterm future.... They are on a downward curve since years, exchanged the CEO several times....time is running out, number of options are decreasing.
Nevertheless, the brand of Bang&Olufsen is worth something and somebody will buy them just for that, similar to Loewe. Whether it would be Apple (i doubt) or Philips, Samsung or maybe even LVMH i don't know. Market capitalization is around €200 million...peanuts for a global player.
They won't buy B&O for their technology (i.e. ICE, Visionclear, Netlink or automotive), but just for the brand reputation and the customer set (i.e. russian billionaires ;-)
Of course B&O as we know it today will change....from an independent, individual vendor based in Denmark to a brand, which is relabeling and pimping up someones core technology design wise.
We may hope, that the buyer will let them do their thing (similiar to Audi, who bought Lamborghini). Imagine a "B&O television set" using the materials and finish of B&O and the latest and greatest technology from a major vendor....
I don't care a lot who owns my money after buying a television set, as long as- the television is beautiful- the material used is not the cheapest plastic- amazing features like a fantastic Beo4 are included
Today, knowing the finish of B&O as they demonstrate what can be done.... i am not satisfied by the rest of the pack. Thats the reason why i am buying B&O.I am not always satisfied by the technology capabilities of my B&O gear...but i do know, they are a small company and there is just no chance to compete in software development with giants like Apple or Samsung. Developing features and functions according to a specification is a question of manpower...to define the right specifications with right priority is a matter of genius. You need more than just brute force software development capacity.
Personally i hope i still can buy fantastic products in the future which stand up from the crowd. And i do like the B&O logo, so hopefully it survives.
Sorry for the long post,Kiwi
expoman: moxxey: Although that covers pretty much everything we already know, it does emphasise that B&O would be wise getting out the TV business and concentrating on it's audio core (which is something I don't want to happen, personally). I guess we all read different meanings but I do not see any faith by Handelsbanken in audio products unless they can be reinvented.
moxxey: Although that covers pretty much everything we already know, it does emphasise that B&O would be wise getting out the TV business and concentrating on it's audio core (which is something I don't want to happen, personally).
I guess we all read different meanings but I do not see any faith by Handelsbanken in audio products unless they can be reinvented.
But that's exactly what I said above? Focus on it's audio core. The report says "should....reinvent itself within its legacy audio source business. "
Which is what I said. They should, effectively, drop TV and non-profitable parts of the business, pushing all their focus on re-inventing their business as an audio-only company, which is their legacy.
kiwi4all: They won't buy B&O for their technology (i.e. ICE, Visionclear, Netlink or automotive), but just for the brand reputation and the customer set (i.e. russian billionaires ;-)
Sadly I completely disagree with this. If B&O is sold, no-one will keep it going as a luxury producer as it would simply mean keeping everything as it is now....losing money in the process. No change, really. No-one will buy the brand for this purpose.
If anything, they will be bought for the technology, what little of that there is available. Maybe the brand would go along with this technology purchase, but they wouldn't carry on producing TVs and losing money doing this. The poor-selling BV7 and BV12 are good examples why there isn't an infinite number of Russian billionaires buying their TVs.
I remember when the successful Commodore went bust through mis-management. The Amiga brand was pushed from pillar to post, from new owner to new owner and from CEO to CEO. So many changes, by the time anyone decided they could do anything with the technology, it was just too late. This is what happens, sometimes, when a company is sold. Often it's sold for a very nominal amount of money, it takes so long for the new owner to figure what they have, that by the time they do something, they've missed the boat.
As far as television is concerned, B&O could provide motorised stands or frames with audio onto which any flat screen TV could be mounted / inserted by the customer. Much lower manufacturing cost. Much larger potential customer base.
Graham
moxxey: Sadly I completely disagree with this. If B&O is sold, no-one will keep it going as a luxury producer as it would simply mean keeping everything as it is now....losing money in the process. No change, really. No-one will buy the brand for this purpose. If anything, they will be bought for the technology, what little of that there is available. Maybe the brand would go along with this technology purchase, but they wouldn't carry on producing TVs and losing money doing this. The poor-selling BV7 and BV12 are good examples why there isn't an infinite number of Russian billionaires buying their TVs.
Moxxey, i see it quite different.
If anybody buys B&O, then soon all original B&O products will be discontinued.New "B&O brand products" will be derivates from buyers technology, based on the same board as normal products, just another external with more asthetic design, better finish etc...like Audi and Volkswagen, same technology, different design.
Better design, same technology...more expensive than buyers technology, but way cheaper than B&O sets today. It is not a factor of 5-10 to add an aluminum frame to a television set.
vikinguk:As far as television is concerned, B&O could provide motorised stands or frames with audio onto which any flat screen TV could be mounted / inserted by the customer. Much lower manufacturing cost. Much larger potential customer base. Graham
kiwi4all: Better design, same technology...more expensive than buyers technology, but way cheaper than B&O sets today.
Better design, same technology...more expensive than buyers technology, but way cheaper than B&O sets today.
Sadly that's just wishful thinking, much like a football fan thinking the same thing if a new owner buys their club. What happens is the new owner takes huge dividends (stripping the club of financial assets) or realises they can't make a profit from their purchase.
Consumers in 2013 aren't the dumb purchasers from the 80s. You can't just rebadge cheap tech with a new frame and pass it off to billionaires. And the Phillips connection failed for a reason.
Hindsight is worthless, but TBS was a knife to the heart for B&O. He was hired to a major part because of his close relationship to Microsoft after his time as CEO of LEGO. That blinded him to the ascendancy of Apple as a force in A/V delivery formats, and ensured that teenagers everywhere ended up with better A/V systems than their dad's expensive B&O.
Coupled with a desire to turn their back on Europe and chase revenue in emerging economies, in a way that denied core brand legacies - they ended up suspended between one large group of disaffected established customers, who were wondering what B&O were up to now; and a smaller group of people clueless about the brand beyond its supposed luxury cachet.
So we got Louis Vuitton nonsense, gold and behemoth screens.
Tue Mantoni should be kept on, so far what he has indicated B&O will do seems right, and is what Handelsbanken and others are also calling for: return to the core legacy business/reinvent. (As if that is easy with their entrenched mindset).
soundproof: Tue Mantoni should be kept on, so far what he has indicated B&O will do seems right, and is what Handelsbanken and others are also calling for: return to the core legacy business/reinvent. (As if that is easy with their entrenched mindset).
Most of us have forgotten that Kalle Hvidt Nielsen was the CEO between Torben and Tue. Kalle pushed for new less expensive Video products like BV 10 and was the one who decided on the new Video engine platform.
It may have been a mistake to not give him more time.
Tue pushed to start the play products. Only time will tell if that works? Regardless of the talked about Play products success, it needs to be increased by a factor of 10 or more to make a difference to B&O's bottom line.
Hindsight is not worthless. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Hvidt Nielsen had a handle on the technology, but not on the consumers, as far as I can gather the feedback. Tue Mantoni was on the board of directors, and got to know B&O's challenges from that position, before he was asked to replace Hvidt Nielsen. Mantoni's turn-around of Triumph was decisive in that respect - established brand with mojo-deficit that needed to be revitalized, and was. What does that sound like?
In essence, B&O has been mismanaged by MBAs head deep in spreadsheets for over a decade. There's been no cohesive brand message or focus, just a lot of scattershot "maybe there's money over there" product releases, and a sad nod to the basest kind of status appeal.
When Jacob Jensen was designing for the brand, they had a perfect blend of technological lead, design statement and respect for reproducing audio and video at its absolutely best. B&O took a leadership position and defended it.
Then something strange happened after Betamax - they stopped trying harder, saying they would no longer seek to lead. Anders Knutsen, CEO before Ballegaard-Sørensen (TBS), green-lit the acoustic lens project to develop a statement speaker (BL5), but handed over the baton to TBS before the launch of that range.It marked the last break-through development from B&O, and should have been pushed harder.
The greatest tragedy is how terribly the stores have been run - not by the dealers, but by the company. I wasn't popular in Struer when I told TBS and others that entering a B&O store was like being the first visitor in a museum on a Sunday. Those stores should have been invigorating experience centers, filled with amazing A/V displays. Instead, they've been dead space - imagine, B&O back in 2006 had 801 B1 stores around the world.
Why? Just to achieve incremental sales boosts, not to develop the brand, or increase brand awareness and loyalty. It's like having 800 theatres around the world, with nothing happening in them - which is why store visit numbers were ridiculously low.
I'm a committed B&O fan, but it's been hard to buy into all the nonsense coming from management in Struer. A parade of missed opportunities.
Anyway, I'll put a record on my Beogram 3000 and think of all the good times I've had with B&O products!
soundproof:Hvidt Nielsen had a handle on the technology, but not on the consumers, as far as I can gather the feedback. Tue Mantoni was on the board of directors, and got to know B&O's challenges from that position, before he was asked to replace Hvidt Nielsen. Mantoni's turn-around of Triumph was decisive in that respect - established brand with mojo-deficit that needed to be revitalized, and was. What does that sound like? In essence, B&O has been mismanaged by MBAs head deep in spreadsheets for over a decade. There's been no cohesive brand message or focus, just a lot of scattershot "maybe there's money over there" product releases, and a sad nod to the basest kind of status appeal. When Jacob Jensen was designing for the brand, they had a perfect blend of technological lead, design statement and respect for reproducing audio and video at its absolutely best. B&O took a leadership position and defended it. Then something strange happened after Betamax - they stopped trying harder, saying they would no longer seek to lead. Anders Knutsen, CEO before Ballegaard-Sørensen (TBS), green-lit the acoustic lens project to develop a statement speaker (BL5), but handed over the baton to TBS before the launch of that range. It marked the last break-through development from B&O, and should have been pushed harder. The greatest tragedy is how terribly the stores have been run - not by the dealers, but by the company. I wasn't popular in Struer when I told TBS and others that entering a B&O store was like being the first visitor in a museum on a Sunday. Those stores should have been invigorating experience centers, filled with amazing A/V displays. Instead, they've been dead space - imagine, B&O back in 2006 had 801 B1 stores around the world. Why? Just to achieve incremental sales boosts, not to develop the brand, or increase brand awareness and loyalty. It's like having 800 theatres around the world, with nothing happening in them - which is why store visit numbers were ridiculously low. I'm a committed B&O fan, but it's been hard to buy into all the nonsense coming from management in Struer. A parade of missed opportunities. Anyway, I'll put a record on my Beogram 3000 and think of all the good times I've had with B&O products!
The stock seems to be continuing it's downward trend. Around 48.8 right now. At some low point the company could be an attractive acquisition candidate?
expoman: The stock seems to be continuing it's downward trend. Around 48.8 right now. At some low point the company could be an attractive acquisition candidate?
My main fear is that if another high end manufacurer steals away the in-car audio business from B&O, then the company is doomed.
The way it's going you'll be able to buy the B&O brand name for £1 soon :(
moxxey: Strangely, I was in my local dealer for the first time in 3 months yesterday and their walls have a number of prints for sale. One wall has three on them where a product used to be on display. Perhaps they've decided prints are more profitable than product? :)
Strangely, I was in my local dealer for the first time in 3 months yesterday and their walls have a number of prints for sale. One wall has three on them where a product used to be on display. Perhaps they've decided prints are more profitable than product? :)
B&O prints or Art Prints?
expoman: B&O prints or Art Prints?
Just general prints - prints of sports cars, if I can remember correctly.
market share is what matters Chris, and Nissan is not exactly car hifi ( but Lexus does it right IMHO )
http://blog.lexus.co.uk/2013/03/lexus-the-audiophiles-brand/