ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
In a new issue of Wallpaper magazine, there is an article about Bang & Olufsen and Tue Mantoni. I didn't read the whole article because it was mostly about B&O history but I did read the part about Tue. Basically he says there are a lot of great things happening in April. We'll see what happens.
Dude1, I guess we are not all that fickle after all.........maybe a little!
linder: (...) but I did read the part about Tue. Basically he says there are a lot of great things happening in April. We'll see what happens.
(...) but I did read the part about Tue. Basically he says there are a lot of great things happening in April. We'll see what happens.
What else should he say? "Listen up, we have many problems and I have no solution!" wouldn't make many shareholders very happy (even if it is the truth!)I maintain my opinion: I can do the job better!
TWG: I maintain my opinion: I can do the job better!
I maintain my opinion: I can do the job better!
With respect TWG, just about any football fan says the same thing about their team manager (or even Chairman). Very easy from their armchair, very different on the shop floor, I can assure you.
I wouldn't want Tue's job, that's for sure. No profit from TV manufacturing for 10 years and being told they should be scrapped? Very difficult decisions lie ahead.
Well I think Tue is doing a good job. I think he is clearing out the dead wood and am looking forward to the new products. I have met him and he is a dynamic and charismatic CEO. I have every faith that he he has a plan and it will work. I think he has the reins at a very difficult time and one cannot expect everything to suddenly turn around but I think he is going in the right direction.
Peter
Peter: I think he has the reins at a very difficult time and one cannot expect everything to suddenly turn around but I think he is going in the right direction.
I agree - being in charge of an AV company where (good) products were normally well received and lasted 10 years or more, at the time when good products suddenly only lasted 18 months or so is a bit of a poison chalice! The BV11 has been a hit among the normal B&O TV buyers (unfortunately declining) and the Play products have given a nice "blip" to sales figures - he's done quite well in the most difficult market B&O has ever seen! I suspect the general market trend will have much more influence on B&O's financial performance than the product range offered and, worryingly, the products may not be able to prevent the slide. Hopefully there is an absolute market leader in the offing that is blindingly obvious to (a significant number of) potential customers; or else it would seem being stylish is no longer enough!
Ban boring signatures!
I'm seeing a lot of people bemoan the fact that they think B&O will wind up only a speaker company, but honestly, speakers are one of the things that they do best IMO. Take a look around, just about anyone can make a streaming audio player, or PC based music solution, or whatever, how many speaker manufacturers out there make stunningly attractive, high performance, active speakers that you actually want to look at? The market is dominated by either cheap looking boxes or things intended to be hidden, like Bose and such.
Not many things out there that don't require outboard ugly amps, lots of wires, and wooden boxes. I could see an awful lot of people being completely satisfied with a number of Playmakers and Beolabs throughout the house, no complex wiring, choose your own streaming solution that matches your needs, etc.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Difficult financial times are ahead.
Companies with very high levels of debt will go to the wall, so B&O will face less competition if they themselves survive.
Apple (sorry Puncher) will survive because they have no debt and massive sums in the bank (assuming that at some point the US government doesn't start eyeing those funds for a Cyprus style US bail-out!)
B&O survived a financial crisis in the 30's, but they were more technology led in those early days. Today they are marketing led with always slightly behind the times technology, simply because they do not have the scale or resources to compete with the major producers. It's an odd situation, but not unique. Look at how many watch manufacturers use the same movements, but charge a range of prices from say £500 to £10000. At the same time you can get an accurate and presentable looking watch that will last you a couple of years for £10.
Personally, I think good looking design will always pay off, but the majority of the public will still think that a high spec square box is better value, just as they did in the 1970's when the likes of the BM1200 was up against the first Japanese 0.1% distortion amps (usually powering 10% distortion speakers!)
Graham
moxxey: TWG: I maintain my opinion: I can do the job better! With respect TWG, just about any football fan says the same thing about their team manager (or even Chairman). Very easy from their armchair, very different on the shop floor, I can assure you. I wouldn't want Tue's job, that's for sure. No profit from TV manufacturing for 10 years and being told they should be scrapped? Very difficult decisions lie ahead.
Peter: I have met him and he is a dynamic and charismatic CEO. I have every faith that he he has a plan and it will work. I think he has the reins at a very difficult time and one cannot expect everything to suddenly turn around but I think he is going in the right direction.
I have met him and he is a dynamic and charismatic CEO. I have every faith that he he has a plan and it will work. I think he has the reins at a very difficult time and one cannot expect everything to suddenly turn around but I think he is going in the right direction.
vikinger: Look at how many watch manufacturers use the same movements, but charge a range of prices from say £500 to £10000. At the same time you can get an accurate and presentable looking watch that will last you a couple of years for £10.
Look at how many watch manufacturers use the same movements, but charge a range of prices from say £500 to £10000. At the same time you can get an accurate and presentable looking watch that will last you a couple of years for £10.
You can get cheaper versions of anything, generally speaking. Mulberry handbag for £1000? A carrier bag will do the same job, no? :)
On a serious note, I read recently that some luxury watch makers are now outsourcing their run-of-the-mill ETA-based models to China, yet were changing the same amount as if they were being assembled in Switzerland. I won't name the brand in question, but they sell ETA-movement watches for around £4500 and, until recently, were Swiss-made.
moxxey: You can get cheaper versions of anything, generally speaking. Mulberry handbag for £1000? A carrier bag will do the same job, no? :) On a serious note, I read recently that some luxury watch makers are now outsourcing their run-of-the-mill ETA-based models to China, yet were changing the same amount as if they were being assembled in Switzerland. I won't name the brand in question, but they sell ETA-movement watches for around £4500 and, until recently, were Swiss-made.
It's not Panerai is it ?????
Here is the latest exec type cans released by Beats v the Bose ANR headphones. As they will be the main competitors to any future B&O earphones i thought i'd just let you read it.
http://allthingsd.com/20121011/beats-electronics-bose-help-you-tune-out-the-world/?mod=tweet
If the rumours about the new headphones not being ANR are true, i hang my head in utter despair i really do. I walk down the aisles of our aircraft and most of the execs who are using headphones, are using Bose sets. What a huge potential market, let alone the sportsmen etc.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
moxxey: vikinger: Look at how many watch manufacturers use the same movements, but charge a range of prices from say £500 to £10000. At the same time you can get an accurate and presentable looking watch that will last you a couple of years for £10. You can get cheaper versions of anything, generally speaking. Mulberry handbag for £1000? A carrier bag will do the same job, no? :) On a serious note, I read recently that some luxury watch makers are now outsourcing their run-of-the-mill ETA-based models to China, yet were changing the same amount as if they were being assembled in Switzerland. I won't name the brand in question, but they sell ETA-movement watches for around £4500 and, until recently, were Swiss-made.
Now I am shocked. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/51035069#.UVXDYL9Y78s
Jeff: I'm seeing a lot of people bemoan the fact that they think B&O will wind up only a speaker company, but honestly, speakers are one of the things that they do best IMO. Take a look around, just about anyone can make a streaming audio player, or PC based music solution, or whatever, how many speaker manufacturers out there make stunningly attractive, high performance, active speakers that you actually want to look at? The market is dominated by either cheap looking boxes or things intended to be hidden, like Bose and such. Not many things out there that don't require outboard ugly amps, lots of wires, and wooden boxes. I could see an awful lot of people being completely satisfied with a number of Playmakers and Beolabs throughout the house, no complex wiring, choose your own streaming solution that matches your needs, etc.
I agree whole-heartedly with this! I don't have any B & O speakers yet, but I hope to change that this year. I think the B & O have some very intriguing ways to making speakers that few (if any) other manufacturers have. I just wish that they would make it easy to use their speakers with "normal" preamps with phono jacks rather than the Power Link cables. I don't know of too many people whose stereo systems consist of all one brand of component.
D
doonesbury: I just wish that they would make it easy to use their speakers with "normal" preamps with phono jacks rather than the Power Link cables. I don't know of too many people whose stereo systems consist of all one brand of component. D
Well, all armchair quarterbacking aside, Tue has a tough job, made all the worse by the fact that in today's business environment no one gets the time really needed before shareholders and banks panic and pull the fuse. Too many business decisions are focused on very short term goals. Plus you always inherit the last management staffs bad decisions, often with so much invested in them it's impossible to just dump them. In engineering I often came on late in a program of fix it when it'd have been easier to start from scratch, but you had to move forward with the design you had. Money had been spent, technology licensing agreements had been signed, etc.
A turnaround at B&O will take quite some time, no matter who does it. It is not just enough to do some organisational adjustments at B&O, you also have to deliver new strong products. And that takes time, especially if it involves new (integration) technology which still must work with old technology.
On the other side, I think that we at the end of this year should be able to evaluate Tue and decide whether he did his job good or bad. The new top line products should soon come.
I think this year is going to be very interesting!
Doonesbury: I agree whole-heartedly with this! I don't have any B & O speakers yet, but I hope to change that this year. I think the B & O have some very intriguing ways to making speakers that few (if any) other manufacturers have. I just wish that they would make it easy to use their speakers with "normal" preamps with phono jacks rather than the Power Link cables. I don't know of too many people whose stereo systems consist of all one brand of component.
I also agree. One of my mates was keen to get a paid of BL8000s recently, visited the local store a couple of times for a demo. Problem is, connecting to his Arcam amplifier wasn't so straightforward. He ended up a with a couple of monitor speakers, instead (and is very happy with them). B&O must lose a few potential customers by insisting their speakers connect to their devices (and now only providing a BS5 to do so).
moxxey: I also agree. One of my mates was keen to get a paid of BL8000s recently, visited the local store a couple of times for a demo. Problem is, connecting to his Arcam amplifier wasn't so straightforward. He ended up a with a couple of monitor speakers, instead (and is very happy with them). B&O must lose a few potential customers by insisting their speakers connect to their devices (and now only providing a BS5 to do so).
It's not really a connection issues as such, certainly the 8000's and 6000's have a phono input that works very well ............ if you have a variable line level signal to drive them. It is this that causes the difficulty because a volume controlled line level signal is fairly uncommon, but to drive the speakers with a conventional fixed amplitude line out from a preamp would require the volume control to be inside the speakers and therefore they would also need IR sensors to "read" the remote control. A work around is to use speaker cables with attenuating resistors fitted and connect to the power amp's speaker out socket - of course this then means you have a power amp that is doing nothing other than providing a volume control function, but if you have the equipment already and are just looking to swap speakers this would work. I'm sure Sounds Heavenly could provide suitable cables.
Puncher: moxxey: I also agree. One of my mates was keen to get a paid of BL8000s recently, visited the local store a couple of times for a demo. Problem is, connecting to his Arcam amplifier wasn't so straightforward. He ended up a with a couple of monitor speakers, instead (and is very happy with them). B&O must lose a few potential customers by insisting their speakers connect to their devices (and now only providing a BS5 to do so). A work around is....
But that's my entire point! B&O don't make it easy, dealers encourage customers to connect speakers to B&O systems and customer's shoudn't require a ''workaround' for a £2000+ speaker purchase. ie it's going to be hard to base a future business around speakers if a) you can only connect to a couple of B&O sound systems and b) they use proprietary connections.
moxxey: But that's my entire point! B&O don't make it easy, dealers encourage customers to connect speakers to B&O systems and customer's shoudn't require a ''workaround' for a £2000+ speaker purchase. ie it's going to be hard to base a future business around speakers if a) you can only connect to a couple of B&O sound systems and b) they use proprietary connections.
How is a phono connector in any way proprietary? They are probably easier to connect to now than any time in the past with more any more people connecting to a PC souncard or external DAC - they would work fine.
Puncher: How is a phono connector in any way proprietary? They are probably easier to connect to now than any time in the past with more any more people connecting to a PC souncard or external DAC - they would work fine.
I meant, going forward with the RJ45 connectors. I'm following on from other people who say B&O's future is supplying speakers. Well, that's all well and good if you want to connect to a B&O device. If an average punter wants to walk off the street to pick up a pair to connect to their amp, it's not going to be so straightforward - my dealer doesn't stock cabling to enable you to do this, for example.
Anyway, if you think it's straightforward for any old customer to pick up, say, BL3s and connect to an amp, fair enough. I'm just saying that B&O put up some (small) barriers and this isn't going to make it easy to position themselves as a speaker company (if that's where some people think they'll end up).
Based on my limited experience, when I've brought in a friend to view B&O speakers, the dealer usually spends his time convincing you to connect them to a B&O device. They are reluctant to discuss connecting to a regular amp.
moxxey: Based on my limited experience, when I've brought in a friend to view B&O speakers, the dealer usually spends his time convincing you to connect them to a B&O device. They are reluctant to discuss connecting to a regular amp.
I would agree that the biggest barrier to selling the speakers to a non-B&O audience is their complete lack of marketing effort in that area!!
Living Room: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-2 (Center), Beolab 9 (Fronts), Beolab 8000 (Rears), no Subwoofer. Screen: Sony KD-85XH9096Dining Room: Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 4000 on stands, fed by Amazon Echo Show 8Home Cinema: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-4 (Center), Beolab 1 (Fronts), Beolab 4000 (Rears). Projector: Sony VPL-HW55Home Office: Beosystem 3, Beolab 7-4, Beolab 5000, Screen: Sony KD-55XH9005 on Beovision 7-40 stand, ML to Beosound 9000 MK3 and Beosound 5/Beomaster 5 (1 TB SSD version)Bedroom: Sony KD-65XH9077, Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 6002 and Beolab 11 (all white, wall-mounted)
In storage: Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 (1960s).
Back in 2006, we ran a campaign for integrating mp3-players with B&O active speakers, and the dealers were set up with an mp3-playback demo. That could have been pushed more vigorously, I think - for several years.
I don't get the "proprietary" and "difficult to connect to other equipment" statements. Even if you only have PL-connections, it's easy to get converters that help you connect. I ran a pair of BL3s using a DAC with volume control - and the BL3s would switch on when they detected a signal, and off when I stopped playing.Simple PL>RCA connection did the trick.
B&O could have sold hundreds of thousands of speakers to non-B&O customers if they had pushed this harder, and they could even have made the interconnecting component, to simplify. Young consumers watch their movies on their computers, and would love to have better sound. Today, they're spending quite a bit of money on good headphones and headphone amplifiers ...
B&O also sell the cables you need for that conversion, but maybe the dealers and the company haven't been eagerly pushing the option.
In this thread on the danish forum Hifi4all you can find lots of informations to this subject:
http://www.hifi4all.dk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23818&PN=359&TPN=1
It is in danish, but may be an example that you easily can use BeoLabs with all kinds of 3rd party equipment.
Any dealer could know that, and could in fact have sold many more BL's during the last years.
But I think that is going to change - the upcoming (medio may 2013) BL14-set is supposed to be sold for BV's and for non-BV's as well.
That might be one of Tue's wise decisions and a radical chance in the marketing-strategy.
Greetings Millemissen
There is a tv - and there is a BV
The problem is one that's plagued active speakers since they first came on the market. All of the ones I've heard have offered advantages over the passive approach, but selling them was hard. And the general dealer network seldom embraced them as it robbed them of the opportunity to sell amps and speaker wire. A good dealer would point out that any preamp, and there are lots of good ones, many with remotes and even tuners, would work, but wont.
soundproof: I don't get the "proprietary" and "difficult to connect to other equipment" statements. Even if you only have PL-connections, it's easy to get converters that help you connect. I ran a pair of BL3s using a DAC with volume control - and the BL3s would switch on when they detected a signal, and off when I stopped playing. Simple PL>RCA connection did the trick.
I don't get the "proprietary" and "difficult to connect to other equipment" statements. Even if you only have PL-connections, it's easy to get converters that help you connect. I ran a pair of BL3s using a DAC with volume control - and the BL3s would switch on when they detected a signal, and off when I stopped playing. Simple PL>RCA connection did the trick.
You clearly come across as the average punter that walks in to a B&O store. The reason most users buy B&O products is because they don't understand tech, cabling, setting up their kit and so on. Have you seen an average B&O customer? :) Please try and distance yourself from how you approach technology and think about how average B&O customers view technology. Most of them buy the kit and get it installed, as they haven't a clue how to do what you're suggesting.
On the whole, B&O has always been aimed at users who are cash-rich, but somewhat a little tech clueless, who can be persuaded in to parting with their cash on the basis they are getting some of the best equipment in the business. They get talked in to buying expensive systems + speakers, then pay for it to be installed and configured.
If B&O are to re-focus on providing speakers to customers who want to connect to their third-party device, with ease, with no installation help from their dealer, then B&O are going to have to do a lot of marketing and re-focusing on their customer-base, as this base is generally not the kind who knows what they are doing or would have the foggiest what 'PL>RCA' stands for.
You exaggerate the problem and underestimate the savvy of today's younger persons. I have introduced a number of people to using B&O active speakers straight from their computers and mp3-players. It's a cinch. And they are dumbfounded that no one has told them about what active speakers can do. (Or rather, what they can get rid of.)
I think moxxey has a point here. Take my mother , she's what I would call a typical bno customer .
After 10 years she has just worked out how to turn the tv and as for programming sky , forget it.
but the tv is a nice colour and looks nice , shame about the wires....
asking her to wire up some active speakers would be like asking an ant to explain quantum physics.
not that she's stupid , she's not , she's just not in the least bit interested in the technicalities of the equipment she just wants it to look nice and work. Ie a typical bno customer.
I thnk the best option would be an entirely wireless audio system , apple seem to be going in that direction.
oh and she can use her ipad a lot easier tan her beo.4 lol.
soundproof: You exaggerate the problem and underestimate the savvy of today's younger persons.
You exaggerate the problem and underestimate the savvy of today's younger persons.
Young people never - or very rarely - go in to a B&O store. Soundproof, have you spent time in your local B&O store? :)
One of our tech magazines, arguably the biggest selling UK tech magazine, ran a feature on speakers this month and asked on Twitter "if you have £600 to blow on speakers take look at this.....but then who has £600 spare for speakers?". Most young people do not have the cash required to spend it on B&O speakers, then the right cables to connect them.
I had this discussion with one of the guys who works for me. He's 28, about 10 years younger than me. We were discussing the merits/pitfalls of buying tracks via iTunes v ripping CDs (he's very much in to the latter and considers himself an audiophile). He never has more than £500 spare, even though he's on a very good wage for his age. He wouldn't dream of buying or even considering B&O as he views it as kit for people who drive around in a Jaguar, or the equivalent.
Basically, apart from a handful of people you might have convinced to buy B&O, the majority of young people a) do not have the spare cash, b) do not have the inclination to spend £2000+ on speakers to listen to their iTunes-sourced music, c) generally do not hang around in a B&O store and d) view the brand as something that we do not.
This is going to be B&O's biggest headache going forward. As music becomes completely digital (for young people), it's generally regarded as average quality, their incomes keep reducing, the likelihood of new people coming in to the brand will only decline, not increase.
So, the consensus is that Tue will be staying if B&O can turn around its financial position very quickly with the new products due to be announced.
Those new products and / or improved marketing strategy will demonstrate speaker connectivity to non - B&O systems. Tuner- amplifier - players etc might move towards the likes of the yet to be shipped 'Olive'.
On the other hand, like a football manager, he could be suddenly out of a job as team relegation beckons with a few matches left to play.
ouverture: one lad who works for me, he is 25 and just bought Xeo wireless speakers for his apartment, a German company going places it seems, as 3 of his mates have them as well, all bought from the same local hifi shop and at the high end of the speaker market
one lad who works for me, he is 25 and just bought Xeo wireless speakers for his apartment, a German company going places it seems, as 3 of his mates have them as well, all bought from the same local hifi shop and at the high end of the speaker market
The guy at work I introduced to B&O and wanted BL8000 speakers ended up with Dynaudio monitors - after much researching online like you say - and loves them. Clearly tells everyone how much he loves them and they were far cheaper than the BL8000s. He connected them to an Arcam amp, I think.
moxxey: ouverture: one lad who works for me, he is 25 and just bought Xeo wireless speakers for his apartment, a German company going places it seems, as 3 of his mates have them as well, all bought from the same local hifi shop and at the high end of the speaker market The guy at work I introduced to B&O and wanted BL8000 speakers ended up with Dynaudio monitors - after much researching online like you say - and loves them. Clearly tells everyone how much he loves them and they were far cheaper than the BL8000s. He connected them to an Arcam amp, I think.
Yes, but those speakers look awful and / or like every other speaker in a box.
Nothing has changed: you either appreciate B&O for performance and looks, or you buy a high tech spec load of ugly boxes.
vikinger: moxxey: ouverture: one lad who works for me, he is 25 and just bought Xeo wireless speakers for his apartment, a German company going places it seems, as 3 of his mates have them as well, all bought from the same local hifi shop and at the high end of the speaker market The guy at work I introduced to B&O and wanted BL8000 speakers ended up with Dynaudio monitors - after much researching online like you say - and loves them. Clearly tells everyone how much he loves them and they were far cheaper than the BL8000s. He connected them to an Arcam amp, I think. Yes, but those speakers look awful and / or like every other speaker in a box. Nothing has changed: you either appreciate B&O for performance and looks, or you buy a high tech spec load of ugly boxes. Graham
Agree - the BL8000's would have connected to the preamp just as well, therefore the conclusion must be that he didn't really want them or they were too much for his budget.
I do agree that B&O should be selling proper stereo pairs of wireless speakers though, the "novelty" speakers such as A9 are OK but they aren't a real, main room, solution - assuming there are still people who sit and listen to music rather than use it as musical wallpaper.
Hi Puncher,
Shouldn't you be queuing at a Cyprus ATM?
vikinger: Hi Puncher, Shouldn't you be queuing at a Cyprus ATM?
Don't go till Wednesday© (with a pocket load of cash)!!
vikinger: Yes, but those speakers look awful and / or like every other speaker in a box.
Graham, the BL8000s look like something circa 1991. The design isn't that modern. It's decent, but a bit dated in 2013. I can't remember what Dynaudio speakers he owns, but I saw them on some custom floor stands and can't remember thinking they were 'ugly'. If anything, I thought they were fine.
BL8000s to me just look like a 90s design masquerading as modern kit. Great for someone remembers the 80s/early 90s with some passion :)
The main reason he decided against them as he thought they sounded fairly flat (which is how I view the BL6000s). My dealer had them connected to an Airport Express though, which probably didn't help. Also - true story - he wasn't impressed with my dealer's attitude, something I've brought up with my dealer on numerous occasions. I blanked my dealer for 3 months due to something they said to me in December, after I called to help them.
moxxey:Graham, the BL8000s look like something circa 1991. They design isn't that modern. BL8000s to me just look like a 90s design masquerading as modern kit. Great for someone remembers the 80s/early 90s with some passion :)