ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
So I've come to the conclusion that despite being a very capable set of speakers, the BL1s just aren't very musical right now because of their lack of a clean crisp and tight low end. I feel as though asking these beautiful towers to deliver bass is almost insulting the capability of their amazing midrange and high drivers by muddying the whole concoction up. Perhaps I just don't have the right room arrangement for them, but it is what it is now.
I had pretty much declared adding subs to any speaker that is going to be used for music as sacrilege, but then I started to research some of the older threads about the BL2 and a LOT of them when discussing other speakers, such as the BL8ks, pretty much PANNED the BL2 as useless for music, slow to respond, and boomy. But then I read the threads where the BL2 was expressly paired with the BL1 and read words like "magical" and "as good as anything short of the BL5". That perked my ears quickly. So of course most of this was spurred because I happened across a BL2 in good working condition for about half the 2495.00 list (or whenever that was the list). That is still an absurd amount for a subwoofer in my opinion when Velodyne and Definitive make very capable little subs for less than a grand *but* they aren't B&O and they don't integrate as nicely. That said, what appeals to me is that I read a few replies that seemed to indicate that a little known fact was that the BL2 and BL1 were DESIGNED to be symbiotic to eachother and therefore work together to make a tremendously nice team.
Since those threads were a few years old, I guess I just wanted to shake the hornet's nest a little again and see if anyone else has enjoyed a combination of the BL1 with the BL2. If it provides the extra punch I need, then stereotypes about subwoofers be damned, I'll give it a shot.
I saw a lot of opinion when people would ask about BL8ks and the BL2 recommending that people just get BL9s because the combination wouldn't be that much more. I'm not sure what used BL9s should cost, but it would seem they're at least twice as much as what there would be in the BL1s and BL2, so just skipping to BL9s is not the answer, either. To make matters more prickly, a pair of BL5s may be taking a temporary vacation in my home (long story) whilst they look for a new owner. I'm almost planning not to plug them in for fear of being forever ruined to anything else!
Thanks for the opinions and comments as usual.
You were warned about BL1's but your eyes were a bigger influence than your ears. You just could not believe that a speaker of that size could be so bass light. Correct?
Just what were B&O listening to/measuring in their super expensive test facilities?
If you are looking for "disco" bass then the BL2 will indeed become slow and boomy.
On the other hand, if you want "natural" bass then the BL2 will transform your BL1's into very nearly a proper pair of speakers, which they most certainly are not if left on their own.
Regards Graham
Hi,
Someone of my family has visited a private little church in the south east of France, they was very surprised by the quality of the music playing inside.They went upstairs and they saw a pair of beolab 1 with a beolab 2.
He is not an audiophile neither a b&o fan but he has noticed the quality of the sound.
But it was in a church and it was probably lyrics.
4 beolab 5, beolab 9, beolab 10, beolab 5000, beolab 8000 mk2, beolab 6002, beolab 3500, beovision 7 55 mk2, 2 beovision 11 46 mk4, beotime, beosound ouverture, beosound essence, beoplay A8, beomaster 900 RG de luxe and the collection continues...
I have the bl2 with my bl1's and I find it fantastic. I never found it slow. I have two (rooms) set ups with two bl2's, one with the bl1's and the other with the avant and four bl 4000's. As they are set up for two different applications i do not enjoy listening to music on the avant set up. I do find no matter how i try with dvd's the surround sound can bury the speech as it is so loud. Only your ears can judge for you.
joeyboygolf: You were warned about BL1's but your eyes were a bigger influence than your ears. You just could not believe that a speaker of that size could be so bass light. Correct? Just what were B&O listening to/measuring in their super expensive test facilities? If you are looking for "disco" bass then the BL2 will indeed become slow and boomy. On the other hand, if you want "natural" bass then the BL2 will transform your BL1's into very nearly a proper pair of speakers, which they most certainly are not if left on their own.
No I do not want disco bass, but the bass quality of a speaker really comes through when you have music with the strumming of a guitar for example. Being too light on bass simply takes the life out of the guitar, even if the NOTES of the guitar come through crisply and clearly at the top end. It's that "guitar strumming" bass that I want to fill in. And, as I already elaborated over in another thread, the bass that "hits" you in the chest during the dramatic ramp up of certain songs. What I do NOT want is Beats headphones bass in my living room, that's just silly.
And I agree that if B&O touts their speakers as per being tuned by the human ear rather than numbers on a computer screen exclusively, I'm not entirely sure what they were listening to with these. But then, we see how much dramatically less David Lewis was able to influence the design of the BL5, likely as a direct result of design overpowering performance in the case of the short-lived BL1. That said, I find the BL5 to be more aesthetically pleasing, anyway. Doesn't matter because they're not in the budget at the moment, but I do think they're better looking. Still, the BL1s are not bad by any means. My room-mate probably summed them up best when he said they just frustrated him, because he could see where B&o were going with them, and they came so close but ultimately stopped short of something beautiful because there's something missing. I'm hoping that pairing them up with the BL2 completes the picture.
Playdrv4me: joeyboygolf: You were warned about BL1's but your eyes were a bigger influence than your ears. You just could not believe that a speaker of that size could be so bass light. Correct? Just what were B&O listening to/measuring in their super expensive test facilities? If you are looking for "disco" bass then the BL2 will indeed become slow and boomy. On the other hand, if you want "natural" bass then the BL2 will transform your BL1's into very nearly a proper pair of speakers, which they most certainly are not if left on their own. No I do not want disco bass, but the bass quality of a speaker really comes through when you have music with the strumming of a guitar for example. Being too light on bass simply takes the life out of the guitar, even if the NOTES of the guitar come through crisply and clearly at the top end. It's that "guitar strumming" bass that I want to fill in. And, as I already elaborated over in another thread, the bass that "hits" you in the chest during the dramatic ramp up of certain songs. What I do NOT want is Beats headphones bass in my living room, that's just silly.
Don't listen to the BL5s!
Otherwise I agree with Graham - the BL2 was originally designed it would seem to address the failings of the BL1. However these are still great speakers - a bit forward for my liking - I prefer Pentas - but I always do like lazy sounding speakers.
Peter
lol Peter... I know! Unfortunately I have to test them for the new prospective owner once they arrive, I'll just cover my ears while I'm doing it!
To give another idea of some of the kinds of music I listen to where precious little bass is there to begin with (but what bass there is is important)... Things like Steve Winwood's "Back in the High Life Again" and Thompson Twins' "Hold me now" extended mix really demonstrate the power and capability of the BL1s mid and high section detail, but also need more oomph at the bottom. And the bottom end in Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean" is completely lost.
I don't have one nearby to test (this one is also a bit of a drive away) but hopefully it would provide what music like that requires.
If you live near Newcastle, you can borrow mine.
Playdrv4me: So I've come to the conclusion that despite being a very capable set of speakers, the BL1s just aren't very musical right now because of their lack of a clean crisp and tight low end. I feel as though asking these beautiful towers to deliver bass is almost insulting the capability of their amazing midrange and high drivers by muddying the whole concoction up. Perhaps I just don't have the right room arrangement for them, but it is what it is now.
As I have BL1s in three different rooms (once used to have 2 pairs in one room in a different location) here is my impression
Room 1. Wooden Floor / Wall Stand... >30m2, not too loud listening / BL1 Pair standalone, beautifully articulated throughout the range, no need for BL2
Room 2. Wooden Floor / Wall Stand...=20m2, not too loud listening / BL1 Pair standalone, beautifully articulated throughout the range, no need for BL2
Room 3. Wooden Floor / Wall Stand...about 25m2, combined with BV7 and BL 7-4/ BL1 pair with BL2, a set of BL3 in rear. Our music and TV room, BL2 add to the sound experience, however, again, set up and calibration of BL2 sound level (via BV 7) and wall setting important.
Overall, hard flooring and wall stands support BL1 bass performance, however, when you need a bit more and crank up volume, BL2 is a very complementary loudspeaker.
I bought my BL1s in 2005, 2006 and a run out pair in 2007... they are extremely robust ... never would give them away as they are beautiful and overperforming if you are not a #bass heavy# listener.
Peter: If you live near Newcastle, you can borrow mine.
Thanks, Peter. Other side of the pond, but you guys on this forum are always so incredibly nice. What a great place. :)
Just a short input:
Yes the Lab1 has a crisp and detailled high-/midrange an sounds a bit "bass light". Personally I never liked the sound of Lab1 and happily stick to my Pentas... but thats not the point
I remembered that a few years ago (in one of the older Beoworld forums), a Beoworlder wasn't happy with ths sound of Lab1 (too cold/harsh sound) and went into a modification. The whole story can be found on the Beotech part of the Beoworld site. Here is the link:
http://www.beoworld.org/beotech/beolab1.htm
Maybe this approach could help.
Cheers
Foxtrott
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
William Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act 4
pf85: Playdrv4me: So I've come to the conclusion that despite being a very capable set of speakers, the BL1s just aren't very musical right now because of their lack of a clean crisp and tight low end. I feel as though asking these beautiful towers to deliver bass is almost insulting the capability of their amazing midrange and high drivers by muddying the whole concoction up. Perhaps I just don't have the right room arrangement for them, but it is what it is now. As I have BL1s in three different rooms (once used to have 2 pairs in one room in a different location) here is my impression Room 1. Wooden Floor / Wall Stand... >30m2, not too loud listening / BL1 Pair standalone, beautifully articulated throughout the range, no need for BL2 Room 2. Wooden Floor / Wall Stand...=20m2, not too loud listening / BL1 Pair standalone, beautifully articulated throughout the range, no need for BL2 Room 3. Wooden Floor / Wall Stand...about 25m2, combined with BV7 and BL 7-4/ BL1 pair with BL2, a set of BL3 in rear. Our music and TV room, BL2 add to the sound experience, however, again, set up and calibration of BL2 sound level (via BV 7) and wall setting important. Overall, hard flooring and wall stands support BL1 bass performance, however, when you need a bit more and crank up volume, BL2 is a very complementary loudspeaker. I bought my BL1s in 2005, 2006 and a run out pair in 2007... they are extremely robust ... never would give them away as they are beautiful and overperforming if you are not a #bass heavy# listener.
Well you may very well have provided a very important clue right there. My listening area is carpeted, so that may be robbing me of some of low end.
I have BL1 + BL2 in a carpeted room with very high ceiling. I've probably said this before, but I think they sound amazing, and I'm not sure why they get so little love around here. I almost moved my BL2 into my office with the BL8000s that the BL1s replaced. I did a lot of listening with and without the BL2 to decide if I would miss it with the BL1s (my wife was also lobbying for it to move since she liked the look of the BL1s better without the BL2). There was a lot of music where I did not notice much of a difference with/without the BL2. However, there was some where they didn't give the low end "growl" I was looking for (e.g. Led Zeppelin, AC/DC - think classic rock power chords). So... I give up a little bass in the office so I can get the absolute sound in my music room. I would recommend you buy that 2nd hand BL2 you have your eye on.
Stan
I have the BL1's with a BL2. Spent time with the settings on the BL1's including the internal adjustments and with the BL2. Its a terrific combination for music (2 channel) and DTS or like movie sound. I have my BL2 set just lower than the volume of the other speakers and am happy with the sound. I believe the result is not to far away from the BL5's. The major difference being the BL2 does tend to over power at the higher ranges of volume, 65. My settings work best at about 55 and below and it was my choice to set it up this way.
It's connected through a BV7-40.
I do wish the BL2 was hidden though.
My thoughts, buy it!
Good luck,
beoaus
Well now this is rather interesting. When I demoed the BL2 at the guy's apartment (which, consequently was hardwood) it did seem to have a rather massive presence, especially connected to the rather lifeless BL6000s, Yet, connected to the BL1s in this carpeted room with all kinds of off 90 degree angles, the kitchen next door and on and on, it doesn't seem to be overpowering the BL1s. It is especially interesting how delicate its able to be at LOW volumes that would be important to an apartment dweller (versus using the godawful loudness setting designed for this of environment).
Things are improving. I set the pots on the BL1 to zero for mid and treble which allows use of the woofer control more as a quick and dirty crossover between the BL1 and BL2. It's more toward a BL4000 type tone now which is really nice. The BL2 definitely helped.
Playdrv4me:The BL2 definitely helped.
When you say helped, are you still finding the combination lacking or are you happy with it ?
I think it really just comes down to what I was warned about by some of the very knowledgeable folks here. The BeoLab 1s, perhaps more than any other B&O speaker, require very careful placement and ambient conditions (carpet, hard-wood, tile, distance to listening position, distance to surrounding objects and so on and so forth) to achieve their best sound. And the BL2 is also a great example of this. In the previous owner's apartment the thing was just overpowering. Good, but overpowering. In my carpeted living room with a short distance to the couch, it is FAR more subdued. If you can believe it, the midrange on the BL1s set where I had it before, was still so dominant that I experienced the REVERSE of what some have said above. The BL1s would QUICKLY overtake the BL2 as the volume increased on songs with subtle bass. The previous owner of the BL2 also was previously a BL1 owner and seemed perplexed like some of you when I told him that my BL1s were so disappointing when it came to the low end. Again, it just came down to his prior listening room being hard floors and a wide open space.
Personally I find that in *THIS* listening environment the BL1s are starting to shine with the pots for Treble and Mid set to 1 and 0 respectively, and the woofer pot set to 6-ish (and I generally ALWAYS flatten my EQs whenever I can, anyway). This essentially turns them into bigger, more powerful and more dynamically capable BeoLab 4000-esque towers. These are great speakers but the Bang and Olufsen ethos of style over substance really made these things extremely finicky. I have basically had to become a (rather dumb) engineer just to get to where I am now. That said, l can't confess to have having heard the BeoLab 9s but when you consider BeoCentral's opinion that all the BL9 really is is the BL1 principle and power sources with 10 inch sub-woofers built into the base (a rather simplified 3 way design that works more like a 2 way according to beocentral, with the rest of the drivers not being far off from the BL1), I don't find it as out of the realm of possibility that the BL1+BL2 combo can sound if not as good, even outperform the BL9 due to its outstanding midrange.
I haven't played with the BL5s yet, but I expect them to sound beautiful. Of course, once you start throwing a 15 inch woofer into a cabinet and multiply it by 2 with fancy signal processing, you're pretty much going to have a good result almost no matter what. I'm beginning to have more respect for the BL1s simply because of what Lewis and the engineers attempted to do WITHOUT resulting to such simplistic methods. If I had this to do over again, I must confess that I'd have a difficult time choosing between my current setup and a pair of B&W 802 or even 803D/Di's. Of course, then you have to supply amps, cables, preamps and everything in between, and nothing looks nearly as beautiful as the works of art that is B&O. 802s are also considerably more expensive.
I just wanted to update this thread with some interesting developments.
I've been listening to the BL5s for a few days now with lots of different types of music and I have to say that as a whole, the BL1s still hold their own in terms of neutrality and precision. Why do I say this? Well during the past few days I've also gone and listened to a pair of 802 Diamond 2s at the local HiFi dealer here in town and I have to say that while the BL5s have a more "cozy" and warmer presentation, the 802Ds have a terrific RIGHT THERE concert like sound. In this sense, something caught my attention. The BL1s really ARE closer to this type of presentation and therefore perhaps the engineers were on to something when they were developed. Just as I had figured, the massive 15 inch driver in the bottom of the BL5 gives you all the bass performance you could ever want (though VERY well controlled, no less), but the 802 is... crisper... more satisfying overall. However, one thing that is damn near incomparable on the BL5 is the spectacular soundstage. EVERY INSTRUMENT can be discerned beautifully in a way I've never experienced before. Unfortunately, many of those instruments and voices feel like they're just beyond reach and kind of "far away", whereas the BL1 and 802D present a much more local feeling, as if you're right there in the concert. While at the HiFi store, they played Pink Floyd's "Money" and if I closed my eyes I could swear I was standing right in front of the stage as Roger Waters belted out the crackly lyrics. When I came home and played Money on the BL5s, it was more laid back and lacked that "right there" feel (the BL1s are set aside right now so I haven't gotten to play that song on those).
I can see why the BL5s are very popular as they're a tremendous lifestyle speaker for low volume music filling an entire room with rich sound, but I was literally afraid to play with them thinking I'd be ruined on any other B&O speaker forever and I've got to say that's just not the case. Between listening to the 802D and the BL5, I've come away with a new appreciation for the BL1 after all of this discussion. Not only that, I don't even think I'm going to keep the BL2. The BL1, with some tweaking, is a fantastic speaker system. Ironically there's only one more B&O speaker I'm eager to hear, and that's the BL8000. I have a feeling it splits the balance between the fantastic BL4000 and the BL1 in terms of richness and nice midrange. And I imagine it's WAY easier to haul those puppies around.
Playdrv4me:The BL1, with some tweaking, is a fantastic speaker system. Ironically there's only one more B&O speaker I'm eager to hear, and that's the BL8000. I have a feeling it splits the balance between the fantastic BL4000 and the BL1 in terms of richness and nice midrange. And I imagine it's WAY easier to haul those puppies around.
Interesting review of the bl5's. Good to hear you have 'tweaked' the bl1's to your liking,
The bl8000's do fall in between the lab1's and the 4000's, but I would use a bl2 with them.
If you think bl5's are heavy - avoid the Avant !
Yeah the brief audition I had of the 802 Diamond was a bit of an eye opener that reminded me of the BL1 in some ways. Mind you, I am not saying the BL1 is a competitor for the 802D, but even with the good sized mid/bass drivers on the 802 there was not a whole lot of low end just like with the BL5s, but the crispness and clarity and power was just breathtaking. Then I considered that one level up from the 802 is the 800, and this is the speaker that is used in many famous recording studios to master albums. Ironically, I had the same initial lack of "wow" with the 802s that I did with the BL1s. But I stayed and listened a little longer, and then a little longer after that and then I couldn't peel myself away. It is the diamond tweeter that still blows the BL1 away, but the BL1 is closer to this standard than the BL5.
As an every day speaker for music and television listening, the BL5 is still a world class speaker, but the BL1 does feel more "precise" with its fantastic midrange. The characters of these two speakers could not be more different, while the BL1 and 802 are closer to eachother than to the BL5. Another interesting tidbit that some who may be thinking I'm some kind of "bass-head" might find of importance is that even after running the position calibration on the BL5s, I had to bring the bass tone control on the BM7k to "-1" as I felt there was just a little too much of a good thing.
At the end of the day though, this is not a knock of the BL5, please do not interpret it that way as I don't want to start some kind of calamity over my humble opinion.
GThanks for your extensive experience report which I can confirm myself. I have also noted that the BL1 can be quite indignant to poor CD recordings converted into MP3. ...it excels when high class input is used, e.g.lossless...