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soundproof: What's the model number for the speaker stands that go with the S45-2 speakers? I need a pair of stands. Cheers!
What's the model number for the speaker stands that go with the S45-2 speakers? I need a pair of stands.
Cheers!
6013
Martin
Dillen: soundproof: What's the model number for the speaker stands that go with the S45-2 speakers? I need a pair of stands. Cheers! 6013 Martin
Can the 6017 be used?
Type 6017 is for use with the later Beovox S55 / S80 / S80.2 / S120They will fit mechanically but they'll be a bit too high.About 8-9 cm or so may not seem a lot though, probably more of an appearance issue than sound, I should think.
Hi forum friends,
I am a little happier as I now have some answers to my problems.
You might remember I had two pairs of s45-2, pair 1 have the shiny black domes on the tweeters and lovely high end and good bass running the original caps, pair 2 have the dull matt black dome tweeters and i wasnt happy with their low end or their high end before or after a recap.
So the shiny black domes are polycarbonate/mylar material, Philips model AD 0162/T8 and come in shiny black or clear dome and seem to share the same model number between the two variants. The matt black ones are AD 0163/T8 and are a soft fabric dome and used in later production s45-2 and are also similar to those which were in my S55's. The main difference between the two is the material used for the dome and the resonant frequency 1000hz vs 1300hz.
I did have (and recently sold) another pair of s45-2 with the soft fabric domes, their high end was similar to pair 2 and unless I demo'd them beside pair 1, they always sounded nice but seemed to be missing something compared to pair 1. So this got me thinking, my issue might be with the tweeter itself.
Yesterday I spoke to a guy I know who repairs speakers and turntables in Melbourne, he told me his belief is that the earlier model polycarbonate dome tweeters are a better sounding tweeter than the fabric dome (just his opinion). Note: to look at them whilst mounted in the cabinet, the construction and physical appearance of the tweeters is almost identical except for the appearance of the dome.
So last night I dug out my trusty 'wreck' pair of S45-2, they have damaged cabinets and one is missing a woofer. They have the poly carbonate dome which is a clear material and model number AD 0162/T8. Some quick soldering and the clear domes tweeters were installed in Pair 1 in place of the fabric dome tweeters.
The sound difference was very clear; much more detail in the top end and the midrange doesnt sound quite as boomy as it had done, the bass seemed "better", perhaps due to the midrange sounding better.
In an A to B comparison between pair 1 and pair 2 (one with black polycarbonate and the other now with clear polycarbonate), the sound is nearly identical with a nod going to pair 2 (recapped) for slightly more midrange detail which is the result I wanted after a recap.
So in my experience with two sets of speakers, the earlier polycarbonate dome tweeters produce a sound which is, to my ears, more pleasing and articulate than the fabric domes. There seems to be more detail in the high end, its easier to hear the hissing of a master tape in a recording and the music just seems to have an extra bit of a top end which I find very pleasing. I have two friends with M100's and they have both remarked now how these speakers feel like a mini M100.
Jeff I notice in your earlier post in this thread, you had a pair which you recovered with laminate, they have the black polycarbonate dome as well, I dont see the black poly domes often, I suspect they came between the clear polycarbonate and the fabric domes.
Here is an interesting read about the earlier polycarbonates which I think (from visual appearance) were used in the S45 mark 1. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/WWDT.htm
Hope this helps anyone who is working with different sets of s45-2 and seeing variations.
Andrew
My interest in the Mylar / polycarbonate tweeters seems to be contrary to popular opinion where many seem to prefer silk domes, it's the later tweeters.
Drew
Andrew: My interest in the Mylar / polycarbonate tweeters seems to be contrary to popular opinion where many seem to prefer silk domes, it's the later tweeters. Drew
Which one had the lower resonance, the poly hard or the soft dome?
As with anything, the devil is in the details. My personal preference is for well damped soft domes, but not all soft domes are well damped, or good sounding. I remember listening to plenty of speakers with the poly domes and never felt like running out of the room, thought they sounded OK back in the day. Certainly they didn't have any worse pealiness than the Peerless soft dome used in the S75. It had a nasty on axis rising response as well.
As for your preference, maybe the soft dome rolls off early, maybe your ears like the peak in response the polys have! Hard to say, all that matters is you like them better.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Just thought I'd add to the confusion over the S45-2 and S45 speaker debate.
The S45-2 was preceded by the original S45...... almost identical in appearance but with a single aluminium trim to the front edge (none on the rear edge) and a moulded resin back which was substituted on the S45-2 by MDF or ply. These original S45's seem to get forgotten in the S45-2 and later S45 debate. The moulded resin back was shaped and fitted out so that you could use the speakers on stands, vertically on the wall, or inclined on the wall.
My white early series S45's do a fantastic job with plenty of bass, being driven by my early type BM2000.
(You would think that a company like B&O would have been able to keep track of its previous model numbers rather than re-use speaker model and Beomaster numbers to create endless confusion 30 years on!)
Graham
vikinger: Just thought I'd add to the confusion over the S45-2 and S45 speaker debate. The S45-2 was preceded by the original S45...... almost identical in appearance but with a single aluminium trim to the front edge (none on the rear edge) and a moulded resin back which was substituted on the S45-2 by MDF or ply. These original S45's seem to get forgotten in the S45-2 and later S45 debate. The moulded resin back was shaped and fitted out so that you could use the speakers on stands, vertically on the wall, or inclined on the wall. My white early series S45's do a fantastic job with plenty of bass, being driven by my early type BM2000. (You would think that a company like B&O would have been able to keep track of its previous model numbers rather than re-use speaker model and Beomaster numbers to create endless confusion 30 years on!) Graham
I have a set of original s45 on loan right now. It was also a wee bit thinner and smaller in height than the later S45.2 and the still later 2-way S45 from the revised range.
I thought they could be mounted on the old trumpet stands although I don't believe it was ever really marketed that way.
Jeff, the Mylar has a resonance at 1000hz and the soft dome at 1000hz so the Mylar has the lower resonance. I think (Martin can correct me if I am wrong) they cross at about 2000hz.
Graham I believe your original s45 also use a philips dome tweeter of the Mylar type. I'm pretty sure the model is Ad 0160/T8 and had somewhat similar characteristics to the Mylar used in the early s45-2.
Lower resonance can often mean more mass, but there could be other reasons, windings, magnet flux, etc. the original S45 early ones I've seen have the earlier version of the tweeter, where the round diffuser is held over the dome by a wire mesh instead of six plastic spokes. Anyway not enough of a difference to really affect the xovr or low freq response I'd bet. 300 hz is also a small enough difference that it is also probably within manufacturing tolerance. They could both be spec'd at the same resonance freq.
Andrew: Jeff, the Mylar has a resonance at 1000hz and the soft dome at 1000hz so the Mylar has the lower resonance. I think (Martin can correct me if I am wrong) they cross at about 2000hz. Graham I believe your original s45 also use a philips dome tweeter of the Mylar type. I'm pretty sure the model is Ad 0160/T8 and had somewhat similar characteristics to the Mylar used in the early s45-2. Andrew
Here are some pictures of both the original S45 tweeter and a picture of the later S45,2 tweeter. Note that the tweeter were mounted a bit differently 3 screw vs, 4 screw as well as the construction of the tweeter itself.
S45 tweeter
Now a pic of the slightly different AD 0162/T8 from the S45.2
Since I started this thread, you guys know I have a keen interest in these S45 speakers…. and yes Graham you added to the confusion with enlightenment. All knowledge is good!
One of the comments I noted was that I might “possibly” enjoy my S45.2 speakers more if I had them recapped. Honestly, mine play so very well that I wouldn’t think of touching them, however I have a pair of mega speakers (from a different brand….. heresy I know) that I purchased new 42 years ago which sound remarkably good.
That said, I also know that capacitors dry out, no matter the brand or quality and I am questioning if there is any possibility that these speakers are performing anywhere near their potential?
As Peter Bang was known to lecture his dealers (badly misquoted here) “Don’t talk about specs LISTEN to our products.” Well I listened to these speakers CAREFULLY and frankly they sound quite competent. But do they sound as good as they could? I haven’t a clue.
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Welcome to the wonderful world of speaker driver engineering. The later tweeter is undoubtedly easier and cheaper to make, but probably has the same dome and magnet characteristics. But note, three screws instead of four, simple plastic spokes instead of a wire mesh.
Jeff: Welcome to the wonderful world of speaker driver engineering. The later tweeter is undoubtedly easier and cheaper to make, but probably has the same dome and magnet characteristics. But note, three screws instead of four, simple plastic spokes instead of a wire mesh.
and the original S45 was constructed in solid wood (at least mine were) not particle board MDF like the later S45,2 and the later later S45. Either way they all sound pretty damn good.
All I can say Jeff is since you have two pairs why not take the plunge and recap one set - same for your S-75's. Another word of caution the S75 tweeter is a peerless tweeter and is starting to have the same magnet slip issues as the woofers on the S45, Happened to me, Luckily you can buy replicas from Midwest speaker on eBay. Re-gluing will be cheaper.
Ricardo the two tweeters you show are both Mylar domes. The s45-2 you show have the earlier model (for the s45-2 model) later in production they changed to a fabric dome tweeter which has. A dome which matt black in appearance. This fabric tweeter is the one which was in my pair 2 speakers and I changed it back to the Mylar domes shown in your s45-2 in the post and enjoy the sound more. There was also a black Mylar dome in the earlier s45-2 which is less common to see. That's the one in my pair 1 s45-2's
The Mylar domes are criticised for being a bit harsh and rolling off early, I like their sound.
Ricardo: Another word of caution the S75 tweeter is a peerless tweeter and is starting to have the same magnet slip issues as the woofers on the S45, Happened to me, Luckily you can buy replicas from Midwest speaker on eBay. Re-gluing will be cheaper.
Another word of caution the S75 tweeter is a peerless tweeter and is starting to have the same magnet slip issues as the woofers on the S45, Happened to me, Luckily you can buy replicas from Midwest speaker on eBay. Re-gluing will be cheaper.
Re-gluing tweeter, that could be intresting challenge.
blah-blah and photographs as needed
Yikes!
Has this been verified that the tweeter on the S-75 has a slipping magnet issue?