ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I was recently gifted with S-45 speakers deposited in a re-cycle facility. While the covers and the veneer suffered slightly from being tossed about in the “garage bin” the speakers appear in as-new condition.
Once powered up one speaker has no response from the woofer and the other has a silent tweeter.
When I have the time to open them up I am hoping for a loose speaker connection, but I wonder in a bad cross-over network is the more likely cause.
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Does the bad woofer move freely? It could have been struck with the dreaded magnet issue where the glue breaks free on the driver magnet and makes it impossible for the cone to move.
Beo4 'til I die!
Kindly forgive the uneducated question but can I judge movement with the speaker in place? If so, it does not move at all. I pushed hard as I dared not wanting to damage the speaker and it doesn’t move.
I also neglected to mention what now seems an important detail, once connected to my BeoCenter 9000 the additional S-45’s in combination with the S-75’s forced the amp to “turn down” the volume several notches.
Once the S-45’s were disconnected the amp was more than willing to power at any level I requested which indicated to me that something was very wrong with the S-45’s.
In the past I powered three sets of inefficient speakers (Linn Isobaric’s, McIntosh ML-2’s, and Fisher XL’s with my ever dependable Beomaster 2400 with no problem, but when I attempted the same thing with my Beomaster 4500 it protested cutting back the volume in self-defense.
So now what should I do?
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
I agree on the above measurements but the Beocenter 9000 always had a somewhat "weak" amplifier.The amplifier for passive speakers was never first priority in any of these Beocenters.
Compare the cone movement to the working woofer.If the cone (coil) has frozen solid the only solution is to replace the woofer with an original spare.And secure the magnet on the working one with glue before it ends up the same way.
Martin
Hi Martin,
I have a second pair of “ugly” cosmetically damaged white S-45 speakers that I covered with faux wood, which looks acceptable, however the grills are tattered, so I don’t use them. It would be easy enough to swap out the offending speakers as the new set is more than presentable cosmetically.
What I don’t quite understand is my tattered pair function satisfactorily but the speakers themselves look bad, the foam surround on the edge of disintegrating and the paper cones just hanging in there. This compared to the absolutely NEW appearance of the non-functioning speakers I just acquired.
In any case considering the massive power of the BeoCenter 9000 at 30 watts per channel; no doubt the S-45’s would be the best choice for pairing up with this amp. That said I have never been all that impressed with the S-45’s that I have….. although it may be argued that I have never heard to “good” S-45.
I much prefer the sound quality of the S-75 and just plan to avoid over-driving this modest amp.
The above photo was too large and cropped by the server. Here is a second attempt to show the before and after....
Beovox S45 (6302) and S-45.2 (6312) never had foam surrounds.The Beovox S45 (6427) however, did and is a two-way system only.
The white and palisander ones in the photo are both Beovox S45.2 type 6312 so none of them should have foam rot.
I am going to try a MUCH reduced in-size photo of the before and after of my "ugly" S-45 speakers..... the ones that work. This is the before and after shot of the pair. Note the yellow discoloration on the top of the white speaker. Looked nasty! I applied contact paper and the transformation was beyond remarkable. Of course it is fake, but looks "believable."
Unfortunately the new attractive ones have issues. One woofer is absloutely immovable. I took it out and tried everything, but it is like cast in cement. The other speaker has a dead tweeter.
These speakers are ninties equipment and I am a bit surprised that they failed at such a young age..... especially when you consider that my 1971 McIntosh ML-2 speakers survived the massive abuse of my youth and yet 41 years later these 100% original speakers still perform basically as new. The paper and rubber surrounds on the woofers were replaced in 1996, but other than that, these ML-2's are they way they left the factory.
Piaf: One woofer is absloutely immovable.
One woofer is absloutely immovable.
Yes, the magnet became lose and has snapped to one side, squeezing the coil.That happens far too often with this type of driver. The cone feels like it is rock solid, welded in place andthe woofer will be as quiet as the complaint department at a parachute packing plant.If you grab it very hard, you will be able to move the magnet about 1mm from side to side with respect to themetal basket but it will be very difficult and it will constantly snap to the side.There is no immediate fix for this situation other than fitting a replacement woofer.
Glue the magnet on the working one(s) while there is still time. Handle them carefully.
The Beovox S45 (6302) and S45.2 (6312) are from the 1970's.
Oh boy but do I ever feel STUPID!
The working speakers are unquestionably from the seventies, but my troubled speakers are clearly MUCH newer and likely built around the time of the BeoCenter 9000. Sad that the “old stuff” lasts longer than the new.
I imagine the speakers would not swap out between these two very different vintage S-45’s.
All this brings up an additional two questions.
First, would a dead tweeter and a frozen woofer place a strain the amplifier, causing it to reduce volume in a self-protection mode?
Second, does this glue issue with the magnets on the later S-45 series also affect the two pairs of S-75 speakers? Again one from the seventies and the other pair from the nineties.
Both pairs of S-75’s “appear” to be functioning well.
Have I missed something here..? None of the speakers you show in the pictures are from the nineties...
The later model of the S-45's are quite different (2-grille). They are known to have foam-rot -but I've never heard they should have the problem with the magnets...(like the old models). And they are not from the nineties -they are from the mid-eighties.
I believe I have spoken in error. My newer S-45’s have a raised area at the top of the speaker, much like my 120.2’s with the split grille. The speakers are undoubtedly the same vintage as the BeoCenter 9000, which is 1988 vintage.
Piaf: I believe I have spoken in error. My newer S-45’s have a raised area at the top of the speaker, much like my 120.2’s with the split grille. The speakers are undoubtedly the same vintage as the BeoCenter 9000, which is 1988 vintage. Jeff
Jeff you are rambling.
The first S45s looks like this, and are 3 way speakers, was made 1976 to 1977, they have an aluminum frame front and back.
The S45-2 looks like this and are 3 way speakers made 1978-82
Latest S45s looks like this and was made 1983-86
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Rambling? Well quite possibly I was, sorry about that.
I know a fair deal about Bang & Olufsen products, but by NO means do I present myself as an expert. As such I hope you will forgive my confusion in regard to these speakers.
My original and ugly pair of S-45 speakers were a gift from a friend in California who wanted me to use them in conjunction with my Beomaster 2400. There are problems with these speakers beyond appearance and I decided to use my original pair of S-75’s with the 2400.
I haven’t seen these speakers in a few years and my “impression” was that the front panel was flat, different from my newest acquisitions. A closer look at my own photos reveals that they are very similar if not quite identical to my newer pair.
Actually, the top pair that Søren shows you are also Beovox S45.2 You can tell the difference by the rear aluminum strip.
The two older versions all share woofer and midrange.The last series of the earliest version shares the tweeter too (to add to the confusion).The latest version (with the two-part front grills) share nothing with the others.
Piaf: I know a fair deal about Bang & Olufsen products, but by NO means do I present myself as an expert. As such I hope you will forgive my confusion in regard to these speakers.
Well... You can always look it up here on Beoworld - at the Main Site under "products",,, As a gold member you should try it
Piaf: Rambling? Well quite possibly I was, sorry about that. I know a fair deal about Bang & Olufsen products, but by NO means do I present myself as an expert. As such I hope you will forgive my confusion in regard to these speakers. My original and ugly pair of S-45 speakers were a gift from a friend in California who wanted me to use them in conjunction with my Beomaster 2400. There are problems with these speakers beyond appearance and I decided to use my original pair of S-75’s with the 2400. I haven’t seen these speakers in a few years and my “impression” was that the front panel was flat, different from my newest acquisitions. A closer look at my own photos reveals that they are very similar if not quite identical to my newer pair. Jeff
Sorry Jeff Me too got it mixed up, but listen to Martin he's always right
Both sets of S-45 speakers have the aluminum strips front and rear.
I am “assuming” that my first pair are S-45’s and the later ones are S-45.2’s.
Good to know that I can swap the bad woofer from the older pair, while undoubtedly I will, but in truth I much prefer the sound from the S-75’s.
I seem to have developed a habit of miss-pairing amps and speakers. The original S-45’s were sent to me as a gift as being more appropriate for my Beomaster 2400. I didn’t like the sound quality and have paired the 2400 with the first set of S-75’s with superb results.
I went on to pair my Beomaster 4500 (and my favorite amp for the record) with S120.2 speakers. Blasphemy perhaps, but the sound quality is remarkable. I have it on good authority that if pushed the Beomaster 4500 will run out of steam and the full potential of these speakers will not be realized. This I can confirm, but at anything less than full power, the combination works.
Continuing my miss-matching I am pairing the BeoCenter 9000 with the newer S-75’s and have been MORE than pleased with the results. Of course I know that if I intended to press for maximum power the 9000 would go into self-defense mode, but this in not my interest.
Should I ever feel the need (and I doubt I ever will) to shake the house with Toccata in Fugue in D minor I will leave that to the 500 watt McIntosh which is more than happy to oblige such a request.
One last question, does the magnet/glue issue of the S-45 also affect the S-75 series?
No problem.
I agree Martin IS always right and a fine gentleman as well.
Piaf: Hi Martin, Both sets of S-45 speakers have the aluminum strips front and rear. I am “assuming” that my first pair are S-45’s and the later ones are S-45.2’s. One last question, does the magnet/glue issue of the S-45 also affect the S-75 series?
No. They are both S-45.2 (type 6312, look at the white label at the back if it's still there).The early S-45 doesn't have the rear alu trim and they have a composite back with six wall-mounting fittings ratherthan a flat wooden back with two threaded holes for the floorstand/wallbracket.
No, the S75 are (so far) not affected. Woofers in P45/P50 and some midrange drivers (M70 or M75) and the slimline Beolit portables are.
On the S45/S75 sound quality issue, the S75s offer considerably more bass than the bookshelf S45. However in purist terms, the S45 offers a more analytical sound in my view. The bass is reduced but in a progressive manner so that the sound reproduction is excellent. S75s, which I chose over S45s when a young man, are wonderful for parties and can produce an impressive amount of noise, but the bass is actually a little out of control and blousy if you sit down and listen to them. S120s, which replaced them in the range, correct this and are probably the best of the S range. S75s however are most appealing and sound more exciting than even S120s! I suppose they are speakers with the loudness button switched on!!
Peter
Hi Peter,
The real problem I am having with judging the quality of the S-45 series speakers is primarily that I have yet to encounter a pair in good condition. Something to look forward to I am certain.
Typical for a North American, as opposed to European taste, I like my sound to have a full rich bass characteristic. However I also like crisp highs, so to date the search for the “perfect” speaker escapes me.
If I want to play something with heavy bass, say organ music, nothing comes close to the McIntosh ML-2’s, but the high end in these speakers is almost an afterthought.
The Lynn Isobarics are the reverse with spectacular highs, maybe even a bit too bright, but no bass. Oddly enough I play the McIntosh and Linn speakers at the same time and they seem to compliment each other.
I find the S120.2 speakers most impressive, which are a good deal like the Linn speakers in a smaller package.
Thanks for your input which is most appreciated!
Took me ages to get my head around S45 speakers! Let's face it - B&O when I mentioned S45.2 speakers at one point denied such a thing existed! If you look at the badges, they only say S45 - only on the labels on the back does the .2 feature!
Peter,
With all the problems that seem to plague the S-45 series speakers I don’t know if I am especially motivated to find, at long last, a good pair, to see what all the talk is about.
From the working pair that I have I rather think that all things being equal that I’d likely prefer the overall sound quality of the S-75 speakers.
I purchased the S120.2 speakers in hopes of finding the “ultimate” B&O speakers and they have more than impressed, with the exception that I find the bass a bit lacking. This may have more to do with the limited power of the Beomaster 4500 than anything vis-à-vis the speakers, but if it were you, what speaker would you choose?
Not to spoil the fun, jeff, but the S75 have issues too, you know.Blown tweeters, burned resistors, lose woofer solder lug rivets etc.Plenty to worry about.
With limited power, I would never go for bigger B&O speakers. Actually, for the Beomaster 4500 I thinkthe S45 would be fine.
The cold hard truth is nothing lasts forever, especially electronics, so rather than worrying about inevitable failure, I just “enjoy” my “treasures.”
Besides I have a pretty good track record with my “antiques” as my main stereo is 41 years old including the speakers.
I must confess that the B&O speakers I use the most are either Beolab 4000s or CX100s. Serious listening is done on my BBC LS3/5a and AB1 combination and for best, I have a pair of M100s. These would satisfy both your high and low wishes! MS150s are also excellent though you need a good amplifier as any distortion makes the tweeter shriek. S45s and S120s are both actually a little bass light but this suits the European home. In the US, you are used to bigger rooms and you need the bass to fill it.
Yes you are quite right, American homes are for the most part on a much larger scale than those in Europe.
I have no doubt that your recommendation of M100’s would fit my taste well.
My favourite amp is the Beomaster 4500 with its delicious mellow sound quality. I don’t know how it would fare paired with the M100’s as it struggles if pressed to its limits with the S120.2’s.
I suppose if I were serious about this I would be looking for a Beomaster 8000 from Bill Rapp.
And yes, I agree, the S120.2’s are lacking in bass…. a likely mistake on my part as they are too much for my intended amp, the Beomaster 4500. Still they have a delightful sound quality within their limitations.
While I truly love my McIntosh 2250 with its mighty 500 watts and will forever be grateful to the McIntosh Company for recently completely rebuilding my amplifier and pre-amp at NO charge…. I still find the sound quality a bit cold in stark contrast to the Beomaster 4500.
When I play records I choose the stereo system best suited to the particular recording. It is all part of the fun, especially when sharing music with fellow audiophiles.
Thanks for your recommendation of the M100’s.
I think you need one of these!
I quite agree. I have been thinking about acquiring a Beomaster 4400 for some time debating if what I really needed was the Beomaster 8000.
I much prefer the appearance of the Beomaster 4400 to the rather added-on and bulky look of the Beomaster 8000.
Still what really matters is sound quality….. as with my much admired Beomaster 4500.
If power alone was my interest, I am already in good hands with my McIntosh 2250 and its powerful 500 watts continuous power.
So the question that begs asking is how to YOU rate the overall sound quality of the Beomaster 4400 as compared to the Beomaster 4500?
The only real comparison I can make is between the Beomaster 2400 which I acquired in order to obtain a flawless Beogram 4002. The Beomaster 2400 cheerfully powered up my collection of inefficient speakers at one time without the slightest complaint, unlike the Beomaster 4500 which cut back power in self-defense.
However the sound quality of my Beomaster 2400 (perhaps it is not typical of the series) is completely unremarkable, boring in a word.
The only other benchmark I have is my newly acquired BeoCenter 9000. The sound quality is far superior to the Beomaster 2400 but short of the Beomaster 4500.
The real attraction to the BeoCenter 9000 is the astonishingly gorgeous design…. I mean the ethicists are simply beyond belief!
I look forward to your sage response.
In my view, and indeed that of Tim Jarman, the 4400 is the best sounding amplifier B&O produced. In fact, there is a review of the 4400 about to appear in the Hi-Fi press - I'll let you know when it is published!
With an endorsement like that I see a new addition to my B&O “family.”
Thank you.
Peter: I think you need one of these!
The Precious! Some day...
There MUST be a story about that!
There is! A few years ago, I had noticed that the service manual for the 4400 also mentioned the 4401. I had however never seen one - or indeed even heard of anyone that had seen one. I concocted a plan with Tim that we would recreate one and present it to B&O to see if we could do it well enough to get a fake into the B&O museum. We got to the stage of me buying a 4400 (another one!) and I stripped it down so I could get the metal anodised. Just when we got to that point, Frede at Classic Audio found a real one - and then another! Both have the red prototype stickers on and he very generously gave one to me. We reassembled the other 4400 and I believe it went to a Beoworld member in Portugal.
My 4401 is gorgeous, with a very dark rosewood finish and superb sound. I made a Beogram 4001 to go with it!
Stunning, absolutely stunning Peter, I am SO impressed! A tailored look in flawless taste. Bravo!