ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Bad news for Loewe? Or maybe this move will help them turn a profit in the future.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-16/loewe-made-in-germany-flops-as-tv-maker-seeks-debt-protection.html
Less competition for B&O. Shame though.
Peter
Yes a real shame if they go bust.
Obviously it's a difficult market.
Too long to list....
It also goes to show that sticking to your guns, whilst admirably demonstrating your commitment to your principals, can also result in a bullet to the head!
Ban boring signatures!
Honestly, I don't see this as good news for B&O:
Loewe was B&O's only serious competitor in the TV area, and price-wise, it was easier to compare B&O with Loewe when purchasing.
I owned 4 BeoVisions before buying a Loewe TV , simply because B&O could not offer a 52-inch LCD below EUR 8,000, which was my budget.
My point is: if B&O is the only one in the premium market, by contrast, they will be seen as even more expensive than before!
Compare them to Philips or Sony, and the TVs are almost 5 times more expensive! Compare them to Loewe, and they are "only" twice as expensive..
It does make the premium for a B&O greater . Loewe tried selling in John Lewis and I considered one but went for the beoplay in the end . Not just because Loewe failed to send the brochure I asked for.
Beo Century ,Beoplay V1, Beocenter 6, Ex-Beolit 12, Beotime , A8. Beolit 15 , Form 2i , Beolab 2000, Beoplay A3.Beosound 1
BeoNut since '75
MartinW:Does anyone feel this justifies B&O's decision to move production to a B&O owned factory located in the Czech Republic?
I guess not. Back in the 80's and 90's (before flatscreens) there was only B&O and Loewe if you wanted a good looking TV in your home. ANY other tv's were just ugly, clumsy black/grey/silver plastic boxes.But today almost any manufacturer can make good looking flat tv.
It will be very hard for B&O to justify the high prices, when their tv's are manufactured in a low cost country...why should a BeoVision still cost 4-5 times more than other quality tv-sets?
According to Loewe, this step will allow for a new Loewe ver.2.0, and this means that old debt, other old financial obligations, and warranty towards products purchased by customers will disappear into thin air.
Considered a Loewe tv before I bought my V-1 a year ago. Now I'm even more happy that I chose the V-1.
JanB:warranty towards products purchased by customers will disappear into thin air
Where did you find this information?
Here you have the official Loewe announcement and I cannot find something like what you say : http://corporate.loewe.tv/de/loewe-ag/presse/pressemitteilungen/top-news/beitrag/beitrag/loewe-beschleunigt-sanierung-unter-dem-schutzschirm.html (you can translate with google...)
They even say that the end customer will have the same excellent service and that the production and deliveries will go on fluently...
Warranty and such depends on how the bankruptcy is structured and what the company wants to do I think. Over here, General Motors, after their managed bankruptcy/bailout, walked away from a ton of warranty claims. They were on the hook for several years worth of cars, Chevrolet Impalas, that had defective rear spindles which would let the wheels get misaligned and wore rear tires out in a few hundred miles. This included a lot of police and government owned cars. Since the government bailed them out, and then they turned around and said all these outstanding warranty claims were on the "old" GM not the "new" GM and left a lot of consumers stuck, there was a pretty bad bit of PR for that move. There are a lot of people I know who will refuse to buy another GM car due to this.
Hopefully Loewe can avoid setting the same precedent. It never helps, when trying to recover, to alienate your customer base. It's sad to see Loewe have to do this, the last time I saw them in the US was when B&O still sold tube sets, and they were nice. I almost bought one but went with a Proton instead.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
'Wonder if we're about to see a Detroit 2.0..
not surprised , loewe always struck me as a bno wannabee at best
i had a tv from them - it was utter crap
Maybe Apple will now pick them up for pennies, assuming those past rumours had any substance to them.
Not good news for B&O however you look at it, unless the Play range attracts would be Loewe customers. John Lewis are currently selling both ranges alongside each other.
Graham
MediaBobNY: 'Wonder if we're about to see a Detroit 2.0..
Detroit now looks like those abandon Iraqi Cities due to US bombings. But in Iraq people have at least some morality left whereas in detroit everyone everything get killed now attacked by gangster,drug mafia
And now Loewe is thinking about moving production to China.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/vorab/loewe-chef-harsch-wir-sind-kein-geraetehersteller-mehr-a-912180.html
The chairman of the acute risk of insolvency Kronacher TV maker Loewe, Matthias Harsch wants to leave the production of the devices take over almost completely by an Asian company. "We are no more device manufacturers, I also try to dissuade the company," Harsch said in an interview with the Hamburg news magazine Der Spiegel. Loewe seeking a strategic partner "in the future, the essential hardware components provides the basis for development dictates, processors, circuit boards and display panels built," says Harsch. "The degree of freedom of a company of our size is limited. Since we can not play anymore."
Harsch also brought a further job cuts this week. The restructuring plan of Loewe beginning of the year have seen a particular market development. Which had not occurred, there had been poor. "To turn the tide, the cost pool for staff in terms of revenue level must not rise., So I can not exclude that further rationalization measures have to be a directed."
I don't know what kind of lousy CEOs we got nowadays...If Loewe TVs etc. are completely made in China: Why should anybody with a full functional brain spend money on a TV set that costs 3 times more than a Sony, Samsung, Panasonic or Philips when they ALL come from the same country?If the B&O TVs are made in China it's the same: I don't buy them anymore.It IS possible to manufacture in your home country and make profit. If somebody does not believe this, please have a look at suisse SMH (they build Swatch, Omega etc. and as far as I know a Swatch watch is everything but expensive) ;-)Good Luck for Loewe and even more B&O!
B&O Panels for the flat TVs are made in China/Korea etc. as well.The clothes you wear are made in China/Vietnam/Bangladesh.Apple products are made in China.These companies have their knowledge in design (that includes processing hardware, software, user Interface etc.), not in manufacturing and assembling...That is the premium you pay.I don't like this, too, but: Loewe is trying to survive.
Ralf
Living Room: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-2 (Center), Beolab 9 (Fronts), Beolab 8000 (Rears), no Subwoofer. Screen: Sony KD-85XH9096Dining Room: Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 4000 on stands, fed by Amazon Echo Show 8Home Cinema: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-4 (Center), Beolab 1 (Fronts), Beolab 4000 (Rears). Projector: Sony VPL-HW55Home Office: Beosystem 3, Beolab 7-4, Beolab 5000, Screen: Sony KD-55XH9005 on Beovision 7-40 stand, ML to Beosound 9000 MK3 and Beosound 5/Beomaster 5 (1 TB SSD version)Bedroom: Sony KD-65XH9077, Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 6002 and Beolab 11 (all white, wall-mounted)
In storage: Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 (1960s).
TWG:It IS possible to manufacture in your home country and make profit.
This is far from the first evidence that TV manufacturers are struggling in the current market, the mainstream manufacturers have struggled too. It would seem the oft quoted watch market has no relevance in the case of TV's. We have heard the "materials and design" argument many times but the looks of mainstream product have caught up (and argueably, in the case of Loewe, overtaken), along with providing the option of home networking, once the stronghold of B&O.
Times are very, very difficult and to claim otherwise, as a TV manufacturer, is misguided.
TWG: ...If the B&O TVs are made in China it's the same!."..
...If the B&O TVs are made in China it's the same!."..
It is not at all the same!
Loewe is giving up production and will let others do the job.
The are focusing on softwaredesign - and thus are hoping to make partnership with 'asian' companies to sell 'Loewe tuned' tv's.
Bang & Olufsen is doing things different. They devellop tv's, loudspeakers, software, and, and - and produces it where it is best.
'Best' can be different: most B&O products are produced in their own factories in the Czech - other stuff is produced in 'asia' from manufacturers that they have choosen being the best to make B&O quality at resonable prices. And by the way: all aluminium production is located at Struer - no one else can do that thing as they can.
And of cource a great deal of the components come from 'asian' companies - where would you buy that stuff today if not from there.
It is a matter of control - B&O controls what is built and how it is built. Loewe seems to be wanting to partner up with different firms, who benefit from the name and knowledge of the brand Loewe.
We should be happy that Bang & Olufsen with Tue as CEO started early enough to get things right - Loewe obvisiously waited to long.
Greetings Millemissen
There is a tv - and there is a BV
TWG: It IS possible to manufacture in your home country and make profit.
It IS possible to manufacture in your home country and make profit.
But it's not about making a profit for most companies. It's about making the biggest profit/margin possible, as shareholders effectively dictate this.
And, besides, ethical companies don't always perform any better. Look at the Co-operative Group in the UK, as an example. Great ethics, still poor management and close to requiring a bailout to survive.
There's no way Britain has the manufacturing capability to produce goods such as a MacBook Pro without significant investment in the infrastructure. Sadly that investment isn't forthcoming, so it's not going to happen. The theory of being able to manufacture in your local country is mostly a pipe dream. Besides, in this ultra-competitive market, where TV manufacturers make £100 profit on a TV, that profit would easily be wiped by moving manufacturing locally. The solution is for TV companies to collectively raise their prices. But then consumers will simply keep their existing TVs for longer, which is precisely what the manufacturers do not want to happen.
We forget that Tue only admitted recently that B&O hasn't made a profit from TV production for ten years. Easily forgotten here.
Loewe loose with their design, loewe was getting to ordinary, so ordinary that it looks old next to a samsung. so you spend 4 times more , get less technology and boring 0815 design. WHo buys Loewe TVs ? nobody
Reading that article, I have just one thing to say to Loewe:
Bye-bye.
Puncher,
I agree, the TV market is crazy at current, it has never been anything close to this.
However...
B&O should be making people "want to" buy their TV's and other stuff, not try and make their TV's as cheaply as possible.
As an example I think it's good to have options, but having a DVB as an option in 2013 is ridiculous. I've said it before and I'll say it again, what B&O most desperately needs is a GREAT software team/programmers. You can't be alive these days with just some shiny bits of aluminum.
Bayerische I completely agree with you. B&O with a great team of software-techs would be able to make a lot of cool additions to the B&O products. For a start, an iPhone app for BP-V1/BV11 would be great
Regarding Loewe and China, i've read about a lot of different companies (dansih) that have spent 5-10 years in China and are now moving back to, if not their country of origin then at least Europe. These companies want to move back because of corruption, trouble with chinese bureaucracy, labour etc. All these problems are proving to be so bad, that they will settle for a smaller profit by moving back to Europe.
Just disposed of an eMac computer that's been at the back of the garage for the last 3 years. Whilst removing the hard drive etc before taking it to the tip I noticed how many standard components were inside, including the Seagate drive. Everything Apple added was really about configuring it all into a unique casing and using their own relatively bomb proof operating system.
Lifting the beast into the car boot made me think how far and how quickly we've come from heavy CRT computers to the hand held tablet. Small scale TV producers like B&O really have no chance with technology moving so quickly. I don't think things will change until the Chinese economy overheats and western demand for eastern built products slackens. At some point Chinese wage costs are going to rise, ours are going to fall, and manufacturing will return to the west. Until that happens B&O have just got to have a strategy for survival.
vikinger: Everything Apple added was really about configuring it all into a unique casing and using their own relatively bomb proof operating system.
Everything Apple added was really about configuring it all into a unique casing and using their own relatively bomb proof operating system.
Apple does part-design chips for the iPhone and iPad, along with the motherboard, the casing and the software to drive the devices. That's a large proportion. But, yes, the eMac is effectively just a "PC" with relevant third-party components, wrapped up in a case. Plus superb Apple software.
However, that's all my BV11 is, effectively. A panel from Samsung, chips and components from various sources, on a B&O motherboard, wrapped up in a case designed by B&O. Even the speakers will be sourced. Software is partly their own, partly licenced.
and your point is ?
Flappo: and your point is ?
Flappo - many of your recent posts seem to be purely to annoy people and illicit a negative reaction.
There was absolutely no call whatsoever for that reply - and if you carry on posting like this you will be placed under moderator review. This means that every post you make will have to be manually approved before anyone sees it.
I'm all for debates, I'm all for contrary opinions, and neither B&O nor Apple are at the centre of the universe - but you've really got to learn that this is a forum where people have friendly debates, not arguments.
You're welcome on here, as is everyone else, but your attitude is starting to go against the whole ethos of this site - and that, I'm afraid, is where the moderating team have to step in.
Lee
A friend of mine had a very large electronic component manufacturing company here in Australia (now sold, he's retired very happily). At one point to trim costs he considered moving his manufacturing to China. He did his research, met with a few manufacturers, and chose the one he felt would do the right job.
He went through meetings and negotiations, and finally they came to an agreement. On the final day of negotiations, he was advised that there was a 'fee' for the intermediary. He agreed reluctantly as he decided this was a cost of doing business.
My friend was told to come back the next day to sign the documents. He showed up to the meeting ready to sign the deal, but there was a person in the meeting he hadn't met before. This person was introduced to my friend, whereupon my friend was told that this person required a 'fee' as well.
My friend left without signing anything, because he wondered how many more 'fees' he would have to pay. He decided it was much safer to keep his manufacturing in Australia!
x:________________________
It probably has been often said before that the Chinese will produce a product to the quality demanded by the buyer.
So, personally I have no antipathy towards a premium product manufactured in China.
The criterion for me is the quality of aftersales service provided by the Company behind the brand name, or their representative.
As a former owner of a Loewe TV, I am sad to see a Company with it's history for quality products be in such difficulties.
For me. it highlights a feeling that perhaps the time is past for very high priced TVs.
I have been very happy with my BV7-55 3D, but lately when viewing far from expensive large screen TVs I have been very impressed with their PQ, and wondered if one really needed to spend a small fortune for a TV.
I recommend this book - Poorly Made in China, an Insider's Account. It details what a struggle it is to achieve and maintain the appropriate quality level, because of the Chinese predilection to de-spec components when they start production runs. Very interesting read, that supports experiences I have made myself. Some years from now, the people behind the outsourcing/globalization movement will realize what a complete c***-up that's been, but by then we will have given away decades of insight and R&D. The Germans seem to be among the few to have understood it's not a viable option - and that's why their manufacturing sector remains comparatively healthy, compared to those with short-sighted "keep the shareholders happy" goals:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production/dp/0470928077
Jonathan: A friend of mine had a very large electronic component manufacturing company here in Australia (now sold, he's retired very happily). At one point to trim costs he considered moving his manufacturing to China. He did his research, met with a few manufacturers, and chose the one he felt would do the right job. He went through meetings and negotiations, and finally they came to an agreement. On the final day of negotiations, he was advised that there was a 'fee' for the intermediary. He agreed reluctantly as he decided this was a cost of doing business. My friend was told to come back the next day to sign the documents. He showed up to the meeting ready to sign the deal, but there was a person in the meeting he hadn't met before. This person was introduced to my friend, whereupon my friend was told that this person required a 'fee' as well. My friend left without signing anything, because he wondered how many more 'fees' he would have to pay. He decided it was much safer to keep his manufacturing in Australia!
When I was in the water business in the UK I was approached by a well known journalist who was some sort of guarantor for a young Chinese student. The student was about to return for a month to China and wanted to make representations to enable my water company to bid for some engineering works in China. For this he expected a 10% fee. Taking fees for introductions is corrupt, but seems to be a way of life for some.
Loewe announces strategic partnership with chinese Hisense.
http://corporate.loewe.tv/de/loewe-ag/investor-relations/ir-aktuell/ir-news-ad-hoc/ir-news-ad-hoc/beitrag/beitrag/hauptversammlung-der-loewe-ag.html
Via google translate
Annual General Meeting of Loewe AG
Loewe and Hisense announce strategic partnership
- Synergies in purchasing, production, development and sales
- Strengthening the premium entry area
- Expansion of sales
- Planned capital increase
Kronach, 31/07/2013 -. Loewe AG Kronach, Germany, and Hisense International Co., Ltd., Qingdao, China, are planning a joint strategic partnership. To the boards of the two companies have signed a far-reaching cooperation agreement for future cooperation between the two companies over which the Loewe Executive Board will report to today's meeting of Loewe AG.
The aim of the proposed strategic partnership with the leading Chinese manufacturer of consumer electronics with a focus on TV, Hisense, is to raise common synergies in purchasing, production, development and sales is. The partnership is designed to enable Loewe future to offer more equipment with the latest technology in the entry area of the premium brand. In addition, Hisense will allow permanent access especially to the latest TV panel technology and attractive markets in China for Loewe.
"The strategic partnership with Hisense is a key milestone in the further restructuring of Loewe," says the CEO of Loewe AG, Matthias Harsch. Besides bundling purchasing potential we obtained by Hisense va a continuous access to the latest technologies basics. It will also strengthen production Kronach, we will continue to expand the manufacture of highly customized home entertainment systems.
Loewe offers Hisense in exchange for a first-class distribution in Western Europe, particularly in German-speaking markets and the Benelux countries. In a first step, Loewe gets the exclusive distribution for the test market Hisense Austria to introduce the latest Ultra HD technology. In addition, Hisense may obtain access to the developed by Loewe, high performance TV software that maps the entire range of modern television equipment, including all multimedia, and Internet applications in a strategic partnership. "The strategic partnership between Hisense and Loewe uses both companies. It helps us to expand our market share in Europe based on the latest technologies such as UHD, "said Dr. Lan Lin, executive vice president of Hisense.
After the negative result in 2012, has been repeatedly reported about the general weakness of the market for LCD TVs in Europe, Loewe also led in the first half of 2013 to a significant decline in sales of 39% to 76.5 million euros (previous year: 125.6 million euros). Due to the significantly lower sales and production volume, Loewe generated a loss before interest and tax (EBIT) of EUR 24.2 million (previous year: EUR -2.1 million).
To align the company back on a successful future, Loewe enhanced adjacent to the high-end premium the premium entry level. For this, a new line of televisions will be presented at the IFA 2013. Also in the audio range there will soon be more attractive entry-level devices that appeal especially to younger audiences.
In addition, this opens the qualified dealers, new distribution channels, such as area markets at home and abroad. "The traditional retailers remains mainly in the German-speaking world with its particular strengths in consulting, presentation and service continue to preferred trading partners," says Matthias Harsch on. "He will also receive an exclusive range in the high-end premium segment."
A further step in the restructuring of Loewe will be a capital including existing and new investors. Thus, the capital of the company is to be strengthened again. Harsch: "Our agreement with Hisense, we are at our main topic, progressed strategic partnership 'a big step. Together with the internal decisions we now have very good conditions for the ongoing talks with potential investors. "