ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
As some of you may recall, I have a full set Beosystem 7000, including Beolink 7000 with desk and floor charger. As some of you may further recall, I was having problems with the Beogram 7000. Having sourced replacement part for the tone arm carriage, B&O would not come to my flat to repair my B&O equipment as they have in the past! [I do not know whether this has anything to do with the franchisee retiring and B&O taking over the franchise.] I would have to bring the turntable to them. Has anyone tried carrying a Beogram on a bus and then transfer to the subway? [Don't get me started on the lack of taxis.]
Additionally, the service manager said that they do not repair vintage B&O as parts were no longer available. Informing him that I have sourced a replacement part and only required service/labour, he told me that this would be a money losing proposition and B&O HQ has instructed vintage equipment not be serviced. It took some pleading by me before he agreed to have receive the turntable. Now, after a month, I received a phone call saying that the turntable is beyond repair. The latest excuse is that one of the two locking placeholders for the cylindrical rails is broken and no longer clips and locks one end of the rail, but still supports the rail. I know that but I believe that once the turntable is returned to its proper place, there would not be any movement of the turntable. Additionally, would not the tonearm carriage help to hold the cylindrical rail in place? Finally, can I not probably jury-rig a replacement to hold the rail in place?
At the time, the Beosystem 7000 was the Rolls Royce of B&O products, with a price to match. However, I am not receiving any Rolls Royce-type of support. Imagine the reaction I will receive when I bring in my 1980s system (Beogram 4002 and Beomaster 3000 and S-80) for service.
Is this how B&O intends to induce customers to purchase new B&O? Why should I continue to patronize this company? I can buy much less expensive equipment, knowing for that price the equipment would become outdated in 5 to 10 years and that the equipment would not hold its value. Again, the Rolls Royce analogy comes to mind: do not buy a Rolls that can last a lifetime or more; instead buy a Yugo that can be replaced every several years.
Sorry for this disjointed tirade. Rant over for now.
Wings:Additionally, would not the tonearm carriage help to hold the cylindrical rail in place? Finally, can I not probably jury-rig a replacement to hold the rail in place?
All the rail needs to do is to stay in place. I would drill a couple of holes through the frame plate around the end support and tie it down...
--mika
I have never tried carring a Beogram on a bus but mainly trains and a taxi or two.
I did use the bus when I got my Attyca 1 furniture some moths ago.
I am lucky to be in Denmark but Dillen is stil a 4 hour one way travel from me. The B&O stores charges a small fee and will tell you after some time that no parts are available. They keep the fee.
MartinW:Have to say that unfortunately your problem is with a dealer, not B&O. B&O HQ have never, ever said not to repair vintage - in fact they are very proud of the longevity of their products. It seems you have a dealer who is lying to you and being unhelpful - very sad to hear that. Time to find a new, better dealer :)
I'm glad to hear that B&O HQ have never said not to repair vintage...But one could get the thought that they have said so...
As we can see here on Beoworld, a lot of people have had the experience with B&O dealers, that they do not want to repair older items.Seems like the standard reply is: No spare parts longer available...And then they don't even want to take a look at it
The good thing is, that there are other possibilities...non-B&O repair shops, private persons, etc...
Dear All,
Thanks for your comments. For your information, I have scheduled an appointment on Thursday afternoon with the manager of B&O Service for a discussion.
Just quickly to respond to some of the posted comments:
1. Unfortunately, there are no other B&O dealers in Hong Kong. There is only one (with four shops, IIRC) in the territory. Both Macau and Guangzhou are at least 1 hour away by public transport. I do not drive in Hong Kong.
2. The B&O operation in Hong Kong was taken over by B&O. It is no longer a franchisee's operation. I do not know the relationship between the sales and the repairs/services divisions. I do know the repairs/services is a separate limited company. In any event, B&O HQ's attitude towards repair/maintenance of its classic/vintage products has not extended to the front-line operations. Yes, I know I am paying a premium when I purchase B&O products, in part for its prestige. As another part of that premium, I also expect quality (so far, no complaints from me in this regard) AND customer service. "Customer service" is taken to include satisfying the customer in after sale repair, i.e., standing behind its products. In my case, its seems that I am being offered excuses NOT to repair the Beogram 7000: the part no longer available (this problem solved by Dillen providing me with the part); the work does not generate a profit (illogical argument in that I am supplying the part and I am paying for the labour, the only "lost" profit is the markup on the replacement part); the plastic clip holding the cylindrical rail in place is broken, etc. This type of attitude does nothing for the company's prestige or for customer/brand loyalty.
2. Unfortunately, people like Dillan and Frede are literally half a world away. Perhaps I should invite them to Hong Kong to fix my B&O. Ha, ha, ha. I simply do not trust the post or delivery services to transport my B&O safely.
3. I agree that there are non-B&O repair shops but these are of unknown quality. I want things done properly. Unfortunately, there is the slap-dash attitude by some in this area of just getting things done quickly, collect the money and move on to the next job. There is no sense of pride in one's profession or trade, or in the quality of one's work.
Again, thank you all for your comments. If there are any more thoughts, please post them. I hope to send a link to this thread to B&O in Denmark for its consideration/action.
The curse of good quality products, and treasured vintage.
I used to have an enthusiast garage take care of my Jaguar E-Type, as I knew they were better at it than the Jaguar dealership.
Same with my B&O from the 1960s-1980s. We are speaking of items that in some instances were manufactured before the CEO of B&O was conceived ...
I was amazed that I could connect my Beovision 8 to my Beosystem 6500 and BeoSound 2000 without any trouble at all, using the Beo4 to control all the units from different rooms. Maybe cut the company a little slack for making that possible?
To defend B&O a bit how much demand is there to keep stock of parts for obsolete products older than 20 odd years or more?
When looking at forums including Beoworld there is a demand but is it really going to be able to run on financial terms?
With the digital Iphone age we are now in I don't think it can be successfull even if B&O decided to repair old products.
Friedmett: To defend B&O a bit how much demand is there to keep stock of parts for obsolete products older than 20 odd years or more? When looking at forums including Beoworld there is a demand but is it really going to be able to run on financial terms? With the digital Iphone age we are now in I don't think it can be successfull even if B&O decided to repair old products.
I guess, nobody expects B&O to keep stock of parts for 20 year+ products.
But one could expect the dealers repair shops to - at least - try to repair older items...Often original spareparts are not needed - sometimes it's just some solderings, caps etc. Most B&O workshops don't even try...
Just think about car workshops...Whether it's Mercedes, Opel, Toyota or whatever. The will repair your car even if it's 10, 15 or 20 years old.
I understand this and I agree with you that it might not make financial sense for B&O to keep parts for 20 years. However, I agree with Steffen's point that this should not prevent B&O from providing the service/labour to keep such an iconic piece of the company in good running order. I had provided the service/repair centre with the service manual. If I recall correctly, I believe I stated that I could provide the photographs before and after I disassembled the machine.
The impression I received when speaking with the manager on the phone was that B&O did not want to service the Beogram because it was beyond repair: no replacement part for the tonearm carriage; fastening screws were missing (I had the screws at home. Moreover, if the Beogram is in place and working, the fastening screws's presence or absence would make no difference to the operation of the record deck.); the clip/fastener for the cylindrical rail is broken. I got the sense that he was suggesting I should place the Beogram in the trash! Perhaps if this were another brand, the replacement by a new model would be financially viable rather than repairing the existing machine; but this is a Beogram 7000.
In any event, I met with the service manager late yesterday afternoon. After explaining my point of view, he agreed to have another look at the Beogram with a view to installing the replacement tonearm carriage. I will tend to the broken fastening clip when the record deck is returned to me.
Thanks for all your comments.
The saga continues. My Beogram 7000 remains at the B&O service centre all this time -- approaching one year. The service centre manager does not respond to emails, either mine or those from the sales staff in the shops. When the manager does finally reply, the response is the same: the beogram cannot be repaired and will be returned to the shop for my retrieval. I have been going around in circles with this person. I have come to the conclusion that the beogram cannot be repaired only because he does not want to repair it. As mentioned months earlier in this thread, I have already supplied a suitable replacement part, the technical manual and can provide the photographs (before and after my disassembly). All I need is a qualified B&O technician to reconnect or solder the wires and re-thread the white wire around the pulleys.
Does any member here have the contact details of someone in Struer who can be of assistance? I have checked the B&O web site and Beocare has yet to reply.
Thanks in advance.
I had a beocentre 4600 which I bought in 1980 , it had a few small problems in 1989 and I took it to a dealer in High St Ken , they said it was unfixable ( arguably BS ) and tried to sell me a new system , told me they were going to scrap it.
They've since gone bust.
Good riddance. lol
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
The problem with repairs of old equipment is not the repair you do, but the problems that may occur after the repair, costumers wants guaranties on repairs, in some countries it is law. If you change damaged component with new ones, this may or may not, put stress on other components, and in a shorter or longer time these stressed components will fail, if this happens within the guarantee period, of course the costumer wants a free repair.
I repair printing machines, 40+ years doing it. On older (+20 years) equipment my experience tells me what to do and, most important, not to do. At times I find failures, where one spare part will get the m/c running for a while, but to get it running properly for longer time, more parts or a total overhaul of the m/c section is needed, The one spare part and work are maybe USD 2,000.00 , where the overhaul may cost USD 20,000.00. Costumers of course want to change only the one spare part. When I tell them that the m/c may or may not fail the day after the repair, they tend to ignore this. When the m/c fails they come back and wants guarantee repairs. Mostly I refuse to do "cheap" repairs, which at times cost me a costumer, but it sure saves me money and troubles.
Technicians with my experience are very hard to find, its the same with electronics, and thats one of the reasons why the B&O and other brands refuse to repair vintage, comes to it, no spare parts and the prices for labor.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Your comments are taken on board. Obviously, I want the beogram repaired and I am willing to pay the associated costs for this repair. I even sourced a replacement part for the tone arm carriage. Thus, it is not a matter of lack of funding or replacement part. It seems more whether the dealer (no longer a franchise, but a B&O operation) is willing to repair.
After 30 years, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate my loyalty to B&O. If B&O now views its products as disposable rather than repairable, I can, at a much lower cost, purchase other brands which openly operates on this marketing model. I can also avoid the frustration of dealing with the **** poor attitude of the service centre's manager.
Wings: Your: the problem is that the repair shops dont have technicians able to do these repairs. I, as a hobbyist, can use hours to replicate a part that 30 years ago cost 50 cents, and I know how to do it. On the electronic side a person like Martin can find solutions, but only because he has the know how and the experience needed. Together Martin and I have 80 years experience .
Your approach to your problem is IMO wrong. Somewhere in Hong Kong there are someone who can repair your item, its just a question of finding him. Getting mad at the people and B&O is not a solution, instead ask them if they know someone who can help you, or if they know someone who may know someone. The way I know Hong Kong, anything and everything is possible.
Of course you can find other new products, even better ones, but it will still, NOT be B&O
Wings:Has anyone tried carrying a Beogram on a bus and then transfer to the subway?
Um, yes. It's only around 10 pounds (5 kg); just be sure you secure the transport screws and tone arm. And put some bubble wrap under the dust cover so the platter doesn't come loose.
Søren Mexico: Wings: Your: the problem is that the repair shops dont have technicians able to do these repairs. I, as a hobbyist, can use hours to replicate a part that 30 years ago cost 50 cents, and I know how to do it. On the electronic side a person like Martin can find solutions, but only because he has the know how and the experience needed. Together Martin and I have 80 years experience . Your approach to your problem is IMO wrong. Somewhere in Hong Kong there are someone who can repair your item, its just a question of finding him. Getting mad at the people and B&O is not a solution, instead ask them if they know someone who can help you, or if they know someone who may know someone. The way I know Hong Kong, anything and everything is possible. Of course you can find other new products, even better ones, but it will still, NOT be B&O
Well said that man! I could not agree more.
I told the OP how to repair his Beogram many moons ago, but he did not want to pay, or thought my suggestion was too much grief or similar.
B&O or their service agents will not repair ancient audio/video items, as they no longer have the spares and/or the personnel capable of fitting them. The OP is in the age of the hobbyist/professional repairer and should get used to the idea.
Somewhere in Hong Kong or an adjacent large country is a guy, like me, beavering away doing the very jobs that B&O won't or can't do. It is a matter of finding him.
Regards Graham
Yes, Graham, I believe you did offer advice. It was at that stage that I realized I was not capable of handling the work or did not trust myself to do this type of work and resorted to the B&O service center.
In my mind, it is a matter of reconnecting the wires of the replacement part to the existing wires of the main body of the beogram. I am not asking the local service center to manufacture a new part. Soren suggests finding someone but B&O has not recommended anyone. None of the other local (i.e., Hong Kong area) Beoworld members have posted any suggestions. Should I take a chance with a total stranger and hand over my precious beogram?
Please keep in mind that the PRC did not start its economic development until the 1980s. I think only recently has B&O become established on the Mainland. Additionally, I do not know when B&O was established in Hong Kong. However, the "disposable economy" is still very much the practice in this region: dispose of the old item and buy new, even if there is nothing functonally wrong with the old item -- just old age. Hence, I do not expect a lot of expertise or passion for old items such as that possessed by members like Soren or Martin.
Thanks.
Wings: Yes, Graham, I believe you did offer advice. It was at that stage that I realized I was not capable of handling the work or did not trust myself to do this type of work and resorted to the B&O service center. In my mind, it is a matter of reconnecting the wires of the replacement part to the existing wires of the main body of the beogram. I am not asking the local service center to manufacture a new part. Soren suggests finding someone but B&O has not recommended anyone. None of the other local (i.e., Hong Kong area) Beoworld members have posted any suggestions. Should I take a chance with a total stranger and hand over my precious beogram? Please keep in mind that the PRC did not start its economic development until the 1980s. I think only recently has B&O become established on the Mainland. Additionally, I do not know when B&O was established in Hong Kong. However, the "disposable economy" is still very much the practice in this region: dispose of the old item and buy new, even if there is nothing functonally wrong with the old item -- just old age. Hence, I do not expect a lot of expertise or passion for old items such as that possessed by members like Soren or Martin. Thanks.
It baffles me why you should hold the B&O service centre in such esteem? The old fashioned service engineers, with real knowledge, are a relic from the past, unfortunately.
Nowadays, the service centres are generally manned by young, partially educated individuals, who are merely fitters of electronic modules, supplied in a suitcase, with instructions provided from a so called service manual.
If the spare part is not available from the suitcase, they are lost.
Forget B&O service, they will be no help to you and they will not be able to recommend anybody.
What you need is a mechanical/electronics engineer with experience of simple electromechanical devices.
There must be thousands of suitably qualified individuals in Hong Kong, who could undertake the simple task of re fitting the moving parts of a Beogram 7000. After all, disabled as I am, I can still take one to pieces and completely rebuild it, in a different carcase,in an hour or two, so it cannot be that difficult!!!
The guy who works on my M-Class Mercedes won't touch the engine, transmission, or electronics on my 80s SL Mercedes, and vice versa. A whole lot of stuff is the same, but the differences are deal breakers. I respect them both.
I do partially agree with you, demand is very limited for older products, but B&O are proud of the long lifetime of their products. I must admit that I have had both success and failures from some dealers. A few years ago, my beocenter 2200 (I had at the time) packed in and I was charged for inspection, only to be told that parts were no longer available and obsolete. I collected the beocenter and tried another dealer, who told me that parts could be found, but not financially worth replacing. In the end, I was able to source a replacement I/O for the beocenter and get the parts fitted here in my workshop. Surprisingly not at a bank-breaking price, like I had been led to believe. Not impressed at all with that experience. However, it is not all bad news. I have found the vast majority of authorised service engineers very helpful. If they are unable to repair an item, they always offer alternative advice. My very last e-mail helped me to diagnose the fault, and give me a good idea of where to source spare parts. Sadly, I live too far from a B&O centre to just pop in with my equipment, so I rely on my own experience of refitting classic B&O. If I get stuck I know which engineers to contact plus the forum.
Stocking old parts may not be the best financial option for B&O, but good old fashioned service, had rarely been a problem for this company, and the better dealers.
I'm interested to know how we're all defining vintage products. I can't even get a quote out of my local dealer to replace the keypad on my Beo5!
It's getting to the stage where it's going to end up on eBay as 'needs attention'
It really is not a drama. If the workshop has that attitude, they probably cannot fix it, because they are not experienced enough. All you have to do is double box the item, so it can be used as a football if need be (with no damage incurred) and send it to a member on here to fix. Why would you waste time with idiots that are not interested in helping you? Just insure the parcel for $1000 US, and if it disappears, you can buy a mint one when it comes up on ebay. Very easy! I have never had a parcel arrive with B&O fragile gear from Europe to Australia turn up damaged once. Not rocker science..... The service center in Australia is excellent, but they still cannot repair some vintage items, due to lack of parts, that members on here can access and install/fix. Pick it up, box it and send it (yesterday). Then you'll be happy again.
True, there is a fine line between whether an older B&O is worth repairing and the cost to actually do so. I have found that in quite a few cases, it has been more viable to not carry out a repair, but to salvage for spare parts.
Recently I've had 2 Beocord VX7000s in, both repairable, but one not in good cosmetic condition. Same with HDR (a relatively newer product) but in most cases, the cost of repair out ways the value of the machine. DVD1 is my main annoyance, as much as I like this player, there are serious issues with the number I get in for repair. Unless in immaculate condition, a simple repair isn't cost effective. So it's not just older B&O that don't always get repaired.
I struggle to understand the minority that will spend so much on beo's but not look after them well. Maybe that's another discussion altogether.