ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
OK, I found a local shop that re-foamed my S-120.2 speakers and they did a masterful job. I doubt that anyone other than a B&O specialist could tell the work was ever done.
That’s the good news.
The speakers sound exactly like they did before, which is probably expected.
Back in service they still disappoint. So what else is new? Used in conjunction with my tattered S-75 speakers they still add a bit of “spice” that I rather like, but on their own, they are unacceptable.
I performed a careful comparison between these two very different speakers and I was surprised by what I found.
In the past I would have cheerfully told you that the S-120.2’s have a better upper end than the S-75’s. I placed my ear right against these speakers and was downright shocked that the S-75’s have clearly more accurate treble notes, more “real sounding” treble notes and the bass, well there is no contest.
The S-120.2 speakers play at best at about 60% of the volume that the S-75’s do, the bass is muddy, shallow, and uninspiring. However the upper end is where I was most surprised, it is plastic sounding, artificial, almost “chemical” if that makes any sense at all.
Another surprise was the appearance of the crossover network which looked absolutely like the day it left the factory…. Bright, NO tarnish, pristine, but that may not mean a thing.
Speaker preference is a very subjective thing, but is this what one might reasonable expect from a rather high end speaker?
Maybe the S-120.2 is simply the wrong speaker for my taste, but I am thinking that there might be something else wrong with them. And if so what?
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Change the caps in one crossover and compare one speaker with the other.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
I have had both. I used S75s for years, before I developed the collecting illness, and recognised that they were a little bit uncontrolled in the bass area but that I liked them. I have listened to them against S45.2s when I bought them and enjoyed the extra bass. I bought them new with stands and seem to remember they cost £300. They were gorgeous rosewood with a flame pattern.
I bought S120s second hand whilst in my collecting phase but early on.The woofers were rotting so I replaced them with Peerless drivers. I confess to finding them boring to listen to which I put down to my replacing of the bass units but they did seem to produce a mostly flat frequency response. I actually still own these though they are on longterm loan to a friend.
On one B&O themed visit to Bellac, I had the pleasure to meet Ronny Mortenson and we chatted about speakers. He said that in his view, the most accurate passive speaker made by B&O was the S120/MC120.2 - which he said had a particularly flat response and measured better than any of the other speakers.
I think what this shows is that figures do not mean that you will like the sound. I have always described the S75s as speakers with a built in permanently on loudness button and I think this is why we like them. For the right music they are lively and bassy. I was sorry when they were stolen. Interestingly, the S60s were nothing like the same - much less bass.
Peter
Thank you Peter and Søren,
I will take a moment or two to think this over. Søren suggested recapping the crossover network and I thought I’d give that a try.
Then I read what Peter had to say and think….hummmm, I wonder if it is worth the trouble?
My friend and fellow B&O collector said he purchased a pair and disliked them so much that he resold them.
I like/love my S-75 speakers for all the reasons Peter stated, but moreover they are simply pleasant to listen to. The S-45.2 are more accurate and a delight to listen to, but perhaps just a bit less “fun” than the S-75’s.
I am going to give this a bit more thought.
Thanks gentlemen!
While Martin ponders over my overload protection circuit issue, I have found a “temporary” solution to the poor performance of my MC 120.2 speakers….. the almighty 8-Track tape. With the 8-Track you can hardly notice the problem.
Piaf: While Martin ponders over my overload protection circuit issue, I have found a “temporary” solution to the poor performance of my MC 120.2 speakers….. the almighty 8-Track tape. With the 8-Track you can hardly notice the problem. Jeff
Oh, you did put them in your car, didn't you?
Jacques
Jacques,
Put them in my car? Now why didn’t I think of that?
I am sure you realize I was just being sarcastic in my remakes about the 8-Track player. Although I wasn’t really kidding about the lack of dynamic range being a plus with these errant speakers.
The 8-Track and its 4-Track predecessor were never popular in Europe as I understand, but in the US they were just everywhere. The portable automotive phonograph was never a workable option, so the 4-Track tape player was the first real alternative to radio as an automotive entertainment source.
With the 8-Track one had a choice of four different tracks and the continuous loop meant you didn’t have to take your eyes of the road.
Home units followed as people wanted to hear their tapes at home as well as in their cars.
The sound quality was at best limited and if one had an 8-Track player today, like I do, one really should have a black velvet painting of Elvis or at least a tiger with bright green eyes and enormous whiskers near by….. that and a lava lamp of your colour choice.
Jacques, if you don’t understand my reference to the black velvet painting of Elvis and the lava lamp, it is only because you are too classy to recognize the zenith of tacky….. to which the 8-Track fits in extremely well!
Definately recap the cross overs, it will make a difference. I really liked the S120's I had, I recapped and refoamed them and they were terrific. I replaced them with Penta's only because they take up less room which is a strange thing to say about 5ft tall speakers!
beaker: Definately recap the cross overs, it will make a difference. I really liked the S120's I had, I recapped and refoamed them and they were terrific. I replaced them with Penta's only because they take up less room which is a strange thing to say about 5ft tall speakers!
Thank you Beaker, maybe you can get him to take reason, I try it since the a year now, it cannot be that a pair of 120s can be that bad.
Jeff you now have an opportunity to use your new soldering station for more than Rolls Royce cars.
We did get the lava lamps you know
The only place where I saw an 8-track player here was a Citroën SM. What a car.
Don't give up on those speakers.
Hi Jacques and Søren,
I definitely have something going on with these speakers beginning with the overload protection circuit. When engaged (Martin tells me) the sound is diverted through the red LED and is all but inaudible and very distorted.
This is NOT happening with these MC 120.2 speakers. Although the sound level is indeed reduced it clearly is at a higher level than what is to be expected.
I “exercised” the overload buttons probably breaking one of them if not both. (Will check this out today) However the sound quality IMPROVED from this “exercise” even though one switch fell into the speaker.
Last night after the sound improvement, one speaker is exactly like Martin predicted, almost silent, but with no LED illuminated.
I don’t need a crystal ball to predict that I will replace all the caps with one of Martin’s excellent kits, but FIRST I want to try to find out what is wrong with this overload circuit.
P.S. Not to worry Jacques, I won't give up on these speakers!
If they are like those on the MS150, they corrode. Mine sounded awful on return from Bellac - almost as if one of the drivers had seized - but a clean (By Tim!) and they were back to normal.
It’s official both switches are broken.
The one that fell into the speaker is frozen solid, will not move at all. This is the speaker went silent last night, well make that virtually silent, but after I removed the switch and banged on it (to no purpose) the speaker is working again, as usual, poorly.
The other switch moves in and out freely, however I am certain it is no longer connected to anything, so it is useless as well.
As such there is no point to recapping until this overload switch problem is resolved. I hope to have replacement switches shortly.
chartz: We did get the lava lamps you know The only place where I saw an 8-track player here was a Citroën SM. What a car. Don't give up on those speakers.
My most sincere condolences on the Lava Lamps in France. Somehow I pictured France above such things…… although I loved them and found them interesting, along with everything else in the age of innocence.
Piaf:My most sincere condolences on the Lava Lamps in France.
You could try simply bypassing the protection switches for testing if you are eager to hear how much they are currently ruining the sound. Just don't push the speakers too far while doing it.
But IMHO trying to evaluate 25+ year old speakers with original caps, with crossovers of this complexity, is just pointless. They can be, and probably are, all over the place.
--mika
In my un-technical way of looking at things, the benchmark here is if you like the sound don’t bother with the caps, but if you don’t, re-cap the amp, speakers, etc.
OK, I guess I can see that cap replacement is a good idea, but I have two pairs of S-75’s and a pair of S-45’s that sound wonderful, if the above is true, why would they all not need being recapped?
In addition I have an extraordinary pair of Linn Isobaric speakers that have perhaps lost a bit of their upper range, but in this I didn’t mind. Point of fact they were so bright that I used to keep pillows on top of each speaker to muffle the treble. (The tweeters are on top aimed up.)
And forget the Linns, my McIntosh ML-2’s are 42 years old and are completely original…. and to the best of my knowledge sound exactly (or darn close) to how they sounded the day they were delivered.
So I am confused.
Well, they are individuals all... I have S45, one with originals and other recapped, I cant tell the difference. In other hand I have RL60 witch inproved a lot with new caps.
So I guess it all depends on case to case, or cap to cap.
blah-blah and photographs as needed
Speakers that use polypro caps never need a re-cap, that's why.
I too have old speakers that will never require overhauling!
Yes, electrolytics problem
Thanks guys, I understand and appreciate the enlightenment.
I rather like that speakers are individuals as opposed to being all stamped-out clones.
At 42 years of age we can assume the McIntosh speakers used a non-deteriorating capacitor and likely the same with the much younger Linns.
Apparently I have been lucky with the S-45’s in that they clearly do not (yet) require re-capping.
If this has been covered before, I apologize for a redundant question, but do the S-75’s suffer this re-cap and re-foam issue? I can’t see any reason why they shouldn’t, but I don’t recall anyone commenting that they required either service.
Just trying to learn a bit more.
S75s have a rubber surround to the woofer. I imagine the caps are likely to be similar to the S45.2s but no longer have S75s to pull apart. My M100s have rubber surrounds but the phase link needed reconing when I got them.
Ha! I knew I had some pics from S75 :
As you can see also S75 suffers loose magnets...
In crossover. Well not magnets, but...
Whoa wait a minute!
Are you telling me that the S-75 speaker has a magnet problem similar to the S-45.2?
I kinda wonder about this as the S-45.2 uses a Peerless woofer whereas the S-75 uses a SEAS woofer, which I believe is a better speaker.
Fear not, in crossovers was loose hearts rattling on bottom of speaker... I do not member make of bass, but it was ok.
Yes, it is the core of the loops on the cross over! I had some S60s that rattled and I found out the metal core was lying on the bottom of the cabinet - glued it back in and no problems!
Peter: Yes, it is the core of the loops on the cross over! I had some S60s that rattled and I found out the metal core was lying on the bottom of the cabinet - glued it back in and no problems!
Wow! That would certainly alter the crossover performance, that will significantly lower the coils inductance!
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff: Peter: Yes, it is the core of the loops on the cross over! I had some S60s that rattled and I found out the metal core was lying on the bottom of the cabinet - glued it back in and no problems! Wow! That would certainly alter the crossover performance, that will significantly lower the coils inductance!
I have had some of these too, not only core loose, but also 1 or more coils. As my items always has to suffer long shipping ways, the first speaker "test" is the rattle test, pick up the speaker with 2 hands and shake it, any annoying sound, and you know.
"Shake, Rattle and Roll"
//Bo.A long list...
Søren Mexico: Jeff: Peter: Yes, it is the core of the loops on the cross over! I had some S60s that rattled and I found out the metal core was lying on the bottom of the cabinet - glued it back in and no problems! Wow! That would certainly alter the crossover performance, that will significantly lower the coils inductance! I have had some of these too, not only core loose, but also 1 or more coils. As my items always has to suffer long shipping ways, the first speaker "test" is the rattle test, pick up the speaker with 2 hands and shake it, any annoying sound, and you know.
Problem with that method is that rattiling is not necessary annoying sound
Replaced all the capacitors on the MC 120.2 speakers, so the question is, how do they sound? Hummm, that’s a really good question.
Well I do believe that they are functioning correctly as the sound is realistic, but there is decidedly little bass. The woofers are moving and there is a bass sound, but not what I was expecting, or perhaps more accurately what I was hoping for.
The volume level is much lower than the less demanding S 75 speakers, but that may have more to do with the fact that the MC 120.2 speakers are much more power hungry.
It is also possible that my 75 watt per channel amp does not have the muscle required to properly power these speakers, I just don’t know.
It is a bit like my Linn Isobaric speakers which have never had the bass I like and are even more power hungry than the MC 120.2 speakers, BUT they have a 250 watt per channel amp powering them, so the end result is more acceptable.
I am going to switch he speaker position tomorrow placing the MC 120.2 speakers on the ground where they once were and sounded so much better and the S 75’s elevated where they too will undoubtedly sound even better than they already do.
As I see it, it makes little sense to place my preferred S 75’s on the floor at a real disadvantage to the less pleasing MC 120.2’s.
So I will ask does this sound like a problem of a miss-matched amp and speakers or maybe just the wrong speakers for my taste?
Or does it sound like I still have a problem with these speakers?
I exchanged speaker positions, as I said I would and I am much happier with the end result. I have placed the MC120.2 speakers on the floor, where they belong, and elevated the S75 speakers where they really, really shine.
With all new capacitors the MC120.2 speakers sound alright, just slightly worse than a $50 pair one would buy from Radio Shack in the sixties. If I were feeling cruel I would add Montgomery Wards Airline Speakers of the same period and K-Mart vinyl covered 2-ways.
I am going out on a limb here, but I venture to say the MC 120.2 speaker was in answer to a question that NO one asked.
Even worse, I have never heard from anyone who actually liked them.
That said on the hardwood floor the MC 120.2’s do resonate a bit better and their “spice” contribution to the now VERY dominate S75’s is welcome.
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
DMacri:It may be instructive to make a simple measurement comparison. If you have a spectrum analyzer app, you can play some white noise, or just tune to an open area on the FM dial and take some measurements from your listening position. That way, you can get a visual representation of the speaker output as a comparison to see what's going on.
For that you need a decent measurement microphone.
To quickly identify a bad speaker element , I usually use tonesweeps and play rather loudhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX27e9SrlfA .when the distored tone come, you will quite easily identify which element it is.a method i used when i was on the road touring as a PA engineer decades back. But with 40 years old filter, I would first recap them, as bad caps can actually destroy elements, particulary during these kind of tests.
My re-capped M75 are my precious diamonds.
Hi Jeff!
Alright?
As it happens, I have just finished doing my Beomaster 6000 receiver - it needed new trimmers to make it stable.
And you know what?
These were really made to work with this amplifier! They just sound gorgeous, like never before! Yes they really deliver everything, the big picture!
They sound sweet, they have superbly detailed and subtle treble, voices are incredible, and yes there is bass. Imaging is very nice and airy too.
WHAT THE?
Back on BM 8000, not as sweet, duller, uninteresting to tell the truth.
One must bear in mind that B&O designed whole systems, as one item. I think that listening to devices separately is wrong and misleading! To gel, they have to work with what they were designed to work with, that's it.
Now, my other, brighter speakers (I actually use with the Beolab 5000, not Beovox 5000 unfortunately, a clear mistake according to many) don't sound really good when fed by the Beomaster 6000!
Now then, anybody has a pair of mint Beovox 5000 speakers? Seriously?
chartz: Hi Jeff! Alright? As it happens, I have just finished doing my Beomaster 6000 receiver - it needed new trimmers to make it stable. And you know what? These were really made to work with this amplifier! They just sound gorgeous, like never before! Yes they really deliver everything, the big picture! They sound sweet, they have superbly detailed and subtle treble, voices are incredible, and yes there is bass. Imaging is very nice and airy too. WHAT THE? Back on BM 8000, not as sweet, duller, uninteresting to tell the truth. One must bear in mind that B&O designed whole systems, as one item. I think that listening to devices separately is wrong and misleading! To gel, they have to work with what they were designed to work with, that's it. Now, my other, brighter speakers (I actually use with the Beolab 5000, not Beovox 5000 unfortunately, a clear mistake according to many) don't sound really good when fed by the Beomaster 6000! Now then, anybody has a pair of mint Beovox 5000 speakers? Seriously?
Hi Jacques,
What a gorgeous system and so neat and tidy. (My parents were neat-freaks so attention to cleanliness was “pounded” into my DNA.)
I hear what you are saying and certainly agree that using components that were designed for each other is a HUGE plus.
You are powering a handsome pair of MC 120.2 speakers with a Beomaster 6000, a 75 watt per channel amplifier and I can see where that is a reasonable combination.
However what I don’t understand is, so how is that different in any meaningful way from my powering my pair with a Beomaster 4400, also a 75 watt per channel amplifier? Good question, don’t you think?
Yes, this is the same “compromised” 4400, but after it stabilized it became what can only be described as a bass-heavy amplifier, and does well with the S 75 speakers, but the re-capped MC 120.2 are a complete disappointment. I wouldn’t give you $10 for this pair.
I therefore deduce that since you LOVE your MC 120.2 speakers there must still be something wrong with mine.
Anyway, before I forget Happy New Year Jacques, Leslie, Peter, Martin, Søren, Rich, and everyone at BeoWorld! I really appreciate all your help and patience, and wish you all a stunning 2014!
A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU TOO !
Now listening to the Beolab 6000 system. Beethoven piano sonatas, (BNL 112911)... Just gorgeous! What a beautiful, crystalline sound. The left side of the keyboard is there too.
And I thought I knew those speakers!
chartz: A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU TOO ! Now listening to the Beolab 6000 system. Beethoven piano sonatas, (BNL 112911)... Just gorgeous! What a beautiful, crystalline sound. The left side of the keyboard is there too. And I thought I knew those speakers!
I reread your post and subsequent post and began to drool. The sound you describe is sumptuous. I can imagine those gorgeous speakers (and they are) sounding like they should. Envy is green and I am several shades thereof….. and green is not my colour.
I was just listening to my ailing Beomaster 2400 and its arguably excellent speaker match, the S 45.2’s. The 2400 is struggling missing the high notes like an elderly vocalist that didn’t warm up properly. However it solders on awaiting the repair bench after the Beomaster 4500 which ships out January 2nd. However even with all the internal damage it still puts on a decent show.
The shop owner tells me that even a perfectly repaired 4500 is no match for a properly repaired 2400. I believe I would like to see that as I hold this 4500 in VERY high regard. But first the 4500 needs to be rebuilt, then I’ll ship the 2400.
There are also conflicting opinions as to the “proper” speaker/amp match. Case in point my BeoCenter 9000 on paper would be better matched with the S 45.2 speakers, but I am delighted with the S 75 pairing. Last night’s performance of the Biltmore Estate’s music box was extraordinary, beyond belief as it sounded so REAL!
Back to my MC 120.2 speakers which surely look like yours, but don’t remotely sound like them. I am kind of exhausted and frustrated with them…. I mean I had them re-foamed, and that didn’t accomplish much. I then re-capped them and frankly expected them to astonish. They didn’t.
The suggestion to seal the box to the frame did more than everything else combined, but in the end they play at about half the volume of the S 75’s, have crisper highs (but not necessarily better or even as realistic as the S 75’s), and the bass is well, pathetic. Much better than before but poor is an improvement over nothing.
Once I get my Beomaster 4500 and 2400 back I’ll see how much those repairs set me back. I then have a decision to make, what to repair next? I have a Beomaster 1000 that is essentially useless with lousy sound and no radio reception to speak of. And then there is the Beomaster 4400 which undoubtedly should be rebuilt again with quality new parts and the trimmers replaced.
One step at a time.
Once again, thank you for all your help and advice!
Hi,
My advice is to fix that 4400 of yours.
Mine has been on retirement since I got the Beolab 5000, but I can assure you it is very, very good, especially on linear mode. I fought hard to repair it, because a transistor on one channel was so-so, not kaput nor completely alive either, the preamp PSU transistor behaved the same way...
It is not back-breaking as the 8000 is, but it still is a very heavy receiver!