ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I have been giving considerable thought to purchasing a Beomaster 4400 for some time, and most recently Peter’s glowing recommendation pushed me to the tipping point.
I found what I believe to be a genuinely nice one, professionally reconditioned by a long-time B&O dealer who is insisting that he has no idea what to ask for his 4400.
Any ideas what a fair price would be for a reconditioned 4400 in excellent cosmetic condition?
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Difficult! The last three I have had dealings with all changed hands for nothing! I have only bought one and that cost me £75 some years ago. I would suggest a figure of about £150 for a good one, which seems very little for such a splendid device.
Peter
Good choice my friend. The 4400 is in my opinion competing against the Beomaster 8000 for being the best receiver ever built by B&O. I used my self-restored 4400 at a party with the restorated S75's; I'm 18 which means than much of the played music would be dubstep, bass heavy pop music and of course some good old rock anthems. The 4400 had been been turned up to the "O.Load" lamp blinking to the beat for hours without any malfunction. The heating fins did their job and remained quite warm to the touch. I heard many comments about the cool bass sound of the S75 with the sufficient power from the 4400 (and the Loundness function for giving more bass ), girls were interested in the odd-looking flat thing that they asked what the heck it was
I have paid a total of about £50 for mine including the capacitor kit from Dillen, my Father bought one for £120. The prices are fluctuating a bit, but certainly a nice addition to any B&O collection.
Vinyl records, cassettes, open reel, valve amplifiers and film photography.
I can only go by ebay prices, but it is a market after all and so IMO quite valid!
From what I have seen a mint, working but non-reconditioned 4400 would go for over £100 but it really would have to be mint. I have seen faulty, nice examples go for about £60 - £80 or so.
Some sellers seem to command huge prices for these but I doubt many of them have had a full overhaul!
Reconditioned, which would include new electros, bulbs, trimmers etc. and a thorough deep clean (to me, that means stripping the potentiometers and manually cleaning the tracks as Martin has previously recommended not using de-oxit or other snake oil). it is hard to say as you don't see many fully reconditioned examples for sale! However, I would have thought depending on variables such as the seller, such examples would deserve a far heftier price tag, going by what I have seen in ebay prices mentioned above?
Olly
The one I bought had an interesting history. It was one of a consignment bought for the Saudi Royal family and was given to the engineer who fitted them - this was the chap I bought it from and was proved by the box which had the Bin Laden name on it! Unfortunately the box went missing at Bellac, but the receiver lives on - Cleve has it now!
I did buy a non working one on eBay (not advertised as not working!!) for about £70 which was the one Tim and I were going to make into a 4401, but didn't bother when my real one arrived!
I think they are not seen as a particularly good buy as at the same time one could get a remote control 2400 , which looked fantastic (my first new B&O purchase!) and also the 2200 which looked far more modern and which shared much of the circuit design. The 2200 is another very under rated receiver - lots of power, AM and FM, the best preset tuning controls of any B&O receiver and practically hand built.
I paid €80 for mine, with as new woodwork and fully transparent sliders and preset cover. But also with one channel not working. I will never sell it.
Jacques
I bought my 4400 a few years ago after it had sat in it's box since coming off display when a store closed down 30 years ago, hence it was in factory condition, and paid £90. I wouldn't part with it for the world.
Considering that a 4400, as is, from Ebay would cost about USD 100.00 inclusive shipping, add spare parts for another USD 100.00, the job.
Reconditioned the right way, I would be willing to pay, USD 250-300.00
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Peter: The one I bought had an interesting history. It was one of a consignment bought for the Saudi Royal family and was given to the engineer who fitted them - this was the chap I bought it from and was proved by the box which had the Bin Laden name on it! Unfortunately the box went missing at Bellac, but the receiver lives on - Cleve has it now!
Indeed I do! I also have Peter's old BM8000 and I still can't decide which one I prefer to listen to, which of course is a nice position to be in.
As for the value of a BM4400 - as always, it is what it is worth to you. But how much would it cost to buy a new Tuner Amp - if anyone still makes such a thing - with the performance, build quality and design of the 4400? Tim Jarman makes the point how little amplifier design has moved on in the 30+ years since it was last produced. I suspect it would cost a lot of money and certainly a lot more than having someone like Frede restore a reasonably good one to mint condition.
As for mine - it is priceless. Peter, who I had not met and did not know other than as someone who offered advice on this site, gave it to me. That meant so much and his gesture had a real influence on my view of the world.
Cleve
Cleviebaby: As for mine - it is priceless. Peter, who I had not met and did not know other than as someone who offered advice on this site, gave it to me. That meant so much and his gesture had a real influence on my view of the world. Cleve
Reading about Peter's kindness restores my faith in humankind. He sounds like a really nice guy! He's truly an inspiation - we should all be a little more like him.
Søren Mexico: Considering that a 4400, as is, from Ebay would cost about USD 100.00 inclusive shipping, add spare parts for another USD 100.00, the job. Reconditioned the right way, I would be willing to pay, USD 250-300.00
If I didn't already have a refurbished BM4000 that I adore, I'd probably go $300 for a BM4400. I'd go $500 for a BM4401, aka The Precious.
It depends on where on the planet you live! In some countries like England Germany Denmark where these were obviously sold in sufficient numbers to find them locally. In my case in Ireland so little b and o that show's up second hand that I just have to buy from else where.
My beovirus has been so far fed by Lee, iconic, Barrie , Leslie and Martin and all great people to deal with (when you need a fix)
Magnus: Cleviebaby: As for mine - it is priceless. Peter, who I had not met and did not know other than as someone who offered advice on this site, gave it to me. That meant so much and his gesture had a real influence on my view of the world. Cleve Reading about Peter's kindness restores my faith in humankind. He sounds like a really nice guy! He's truly an inspiation - we should all be a little more like him.
Amen to that, Peter is a truly generous soul.
Unlike the ex-Beoworld member I gave a BM5500/CD5500 & CX 100's to as he had just been through a messy divorce & ahd to sell his B&O system.
2 weeks later he had them listed on ebay
Chris.
If you can get a restored one from a Beoworld member, then it would be worth paying more to obtain - with all the various aging components replaced, then maybe go above £200.
If its off 'some dude on EBAY' then it has to be worth less.
If you have the means to get a faulty one repaired, well try for less than £100, but remember the repair and restoration will still have to be added on.
The sound of the 4400 compared to anything in the remote control Beomaster 1900-4500 range is going to be significantly better, there are only a few that can compete, the Beomaster 8000, maybe a well restored Beomaster 5000 - it is truly that good.
Medogsfat: 2 weeks later he had them listed on ebay Chris.
An evolving tendency I'm afraid.
In my opinion, there are very few true generous people (like Peter and Medogsfat) who are genuine and donates so much. My little dream would be to buy buy and restore some B&O gear to sell it on here for symbolical prices for the poor (students in mind) to have a chance to try B&O.
I have read a whole rage-themed thread on a tape enthusiast forum about the "giving away and selling it on ebay just after reception of the parcel" and it annoys me that people can be so selfish and directly stupid to do it. Chris here could have sold his Beomaster/CD 5500 system for well over £150 on ebay, but have chosen to help a fellow member of the Beoworld family by donating it to him. I would not have the conscience to make such a stunt as to sell it upon receiving the system; it is morally wrong by any standards and members doing it should be banned as they disrespect and offend the donating member and fellow members.
I asked the owner of a B&O restoration shop if he had a 4400 for sale as I am familiar with his work, which is excellent, and he said yes, but didn’t know how much to ask for it.
As such I opened this forum asking what would be a “fair” price to pay for a 4400.
I then took all the responses and sent them to the owner who responded, “Ha ha ha ha ha.”
My assumption is he will want a very high price so I will just be patient as sooner of later Peter, Martin, or Frede will come up with one and let me know about it.
I find what happened to Chris appalling.
Most people interested in B&O products tend to be incredibly nice and often most generous. I for one was the recipient of a host of badly needed parts for my Beogram 4000 sent entirely gratis…. a kindness I will NEVER forget!
Piaf: I asked the owner of a B&O restoration shop if he had a 4400 for sale as I am familiar with his work, which is excellent, and he said yes, but didn’t know how much to ask for it. As such I opened this forum asking what would be a “fair” price to pay for a 4400. I then took all the responses and sent them to the owner who responded, “Ha ha ha ha ha.” My assumption is he will want a very high price so I will just be patient as sooner of later Peter, Martin, or Frede will come up with one and let me know about it. Jeff
The B&O restoration shop probably got his stock from the same type of seller but has to sell at a price which will recover this cost, plus a proportion of the business's overheads, cover the costs of any possible warranty work which may be required, plus make a profit!
The overheads of a small business are considerable, probably much more than the stock purchase costs. The likely warranty costs of a 40 year old piece of electromechanical equipment are also not inconsiderable.
The price that your B&O restoration shop is looking for will be several times the prices quoted by some members of BeoWorld, who's "raison d'etre" seems to be, how little they have just paid for a certain piece of vintage B&O..
Regards Graham
joeyboygolf: The price that your B&O restoration shop is looking for will be several times the prices quoted by some members of BeoWorld, who's "raison d'etre" seems to be, how little they have just paid for a certain piece of vintage B&O..
I agree.
Martin
I agree as well - if you are buying from a commercial organisation, who has spent time and money repairing an item, don't expect to pay nothing. This is one of the reasons most of the B&O resellers do not deal in the older equipment which will invaraibly need repair and which will have a minimal value. When we returned from Bellac, most of the equipment we brought back went straight into a skip as it was not economical to even think about fixing it. The pieces we kept were either rare, mint or had sentimental value. Very few pieces were of sufficient quality to be sold on so were simply disposed off. You should have seen Andy's face!!
Of course , the other sign of this coin is that a piece bought from a dealer should have a guarantee, even if this is for a short period only , and will work as intended.
Dillen: joeyboygolf: The price that your B&O restoration shop is looking for will be several times the prices quoted by some members of BeoWorld, who's "raison d'etre" seems to be, how little they have just paid for a certain piece of vintage B&O.. I agree. Martin
Hear, hear.
I paid I think 85€ (+25€ or so postage) for mine some years ago. It took new preset trimmers, little cleanup and reattaching a balance slider pot that probably got loose in transit. The result was about mint. That job took me something like an hour, and I believe the "old guy in a corner shop" type radio & TV repair operations over here charge about 70€ per hour (which isn't much, really).
For that,
Now, if I were a business, would I sell the end result for 85 + 25 + 70 + a couple of euros for the two trimmers = 182 euros? The **** I would! That would probably give me at most 20€ of profit after all taxes etc, to use for the rent of the shop and all other running costs. Also, it's 40 years old. There's a very good chance it will need something else in six months, and the buyer would expect me to fix it for free again. Think more like 250-350€. Not all the inward buys will be that lucky, and a business that constantly operates at zero or negative margin won't be a business for long.
Instead, I've loaned it to a friend who enjoys it quite a bit.
--mika
Medogsfat: Magnus: Cleviebaby: As for mine - it is priceless. Peter, who I had not met and did not know other than as someone who offered advice on this site, gave it to me. That meant so much and his gesture had a real influence on my view of the world. Cleve Reading about Peter's kindness restores my faith in humankind. He sounds like a really nice guy! He's truly an inspiation - we should all be a little more like him. Amen to that, Peter is a truly generous soul. Unlike the ex-Beoworld member I gave a BM5500/CD5500 & CX 100's to as he had just been through a messy divorce & ahd to sell his B&O system. 2 weeks later he had them listed on ebay Chris.
In the States we call these folks "Tools."
Thanks all for the information vis-a-vis doing business with a commercial establishment. I will pass this on to the shop owner.
Piaf, a bm 4400 sold on German ebay (yesterday) for 161 euro which looks good and is claimed to be fully functional . If you had won that I am guessing it would cost 60 euro postage. So if it was packed well ad did not suffer any trauma en-route it still cost 240 euro with no real come back.
Should your local guy charge you 300 euro or more , you are getting a quality piece of kit, keeping him in a job and investing in local economy and you do have the certainty of back up locally.
Lets know how it goes for you.
My “local” guy isn’t quite that as I live on Vancouver Island in Canada while my craftsman is in St. Louis, MO. USA. I know this fellow rather well and he is a perfectionist.
This is the shop that rebuilt my Beocord 8004 and from which I purchased a very nice Beogram 8002.
I emailed him vis-à-vis the quoted prices and let him know that I fully expected to pay more than that.
So far silence which is not unexpected. After he thinks things over he’ll let me know what he wants to do….. when he is ready.
The owner of the restoration shop INSISTED that I make him an offer so I offred US$500 and he didn't respond. I took the lack of reply as a "no" and have let the matter drop.
Piaf: The owner of the restoration shop INSISTED that I make him an offer so I offred US$500 and he didn't respond. I took the lack of reply as a "no" and have let the matter drop. Jeff
That is around £310 GBP which is a very good offer. He may regret his decision to turn it down!
I rather thought US$500 was a more than fair offer, thank you for reaffirming this Graham. While this 4400 is probably a very nice unit, there are others out there and patience is a virtue.
Yes I think you made a very fair offer, I would be surprised if you did not get it.
The seller says his amplifier is worth US$750 but will sell his 4400 to me, a known customer for US$600. [I purchased my Beogram 8002 from him and he refurbished my Beocord 8004 to a very high standard.]
I feel this is a rather high price, but the 4400 is to be completely tested before shipping and all faults remedied.
I know this gentleman fairly well and he is a perfectionist and his work is superb.
All considered, does this seem like a good deal to you guys?
I do not know the north America/ Canadian markets at all but I do not believe it would not make anything like 750$. 600$ to me is fairly steep.
Jeff, I have sent you an email.
Thank you Graham for the opportunity to become a customer of yours. I am more than delighted that you sold your 4400.
I have offered my shop owner US$600 which seems like a lot, I know, but this man is a perfectionist and he will go over his 4400 with a fine tooth comb.
He restored my Beocord 8004 and just went on and on replacing parts that did not meet his standards. The process took quite awhile, but I had no interest in rushing him. The end result was a Beocord that performs as new.
I have zero doubt that he will do the same thing with his 4400 making the purchase price reasonable as this will be a NEW Beomaster 4400 when it arrives here.
The only remaining “flaw in the slaw” is I have no idea what the cosmetic condition is like. I rather doubt there would be anything seriously wrong, but I have to be patient as his bench is full.
One question that I will post separately, does the Beomaster 4400 have any remote capability? If so which remote will work?
Piaf: does the Beomaster 4400 have any remote capability? If so which remote will work? Jeff
does the Beomaster 4400 have any remote capability? If so which remote will work?
No remote will be able to push down the switches and move the sliders...
All considered, perhaps this is best! While I truly do love my "new" BeoCenter 9000 with everything controlled by a remote, I know even sans a direct face to face comparison that the 9000 will in no way favorably compare to the 4400.
I do hope you are not inflating the 4400 in your mind too much! At the end of the day, a great amplifier should be noticed by the fact that it does nothing to the music except make it louder!! The component that makes the most difference to the sound, assuming the source is fine, will be the speakers. They produce by far the greatest amount of distortion and hence add the most character. I have stopped doing a/b/x trials on amplifiers as I really cannot tell the difference any more - partly due to my diminishing hearing!! Speakers are, on the other hand, easy!
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
Hi Peter,
It is impossible to say accurately if I have an exaggerated view of the Beomaster 4400. I admit I am going primarily on your glowing recommendation based on extensive experience.
As mentioned previously, my favorite amplifier is the Beomaster 4500. The sound is absolutely exquisite no matter what speakers I have attached to it. The major drawback with this amp is the power or lack thereof.
I have made many references to my McIntosh 2250 with its commanding 500 watts of continuous power. I can NEVER say enough nice things about McIntosh as the factory rebuilt my abused amp from the ground up completely gratis and it is magnificent in all respects. That said the big Mac does not have the delicious sound of the Beomaster 4500.
By comparison the powerful McIntosh sound is cold and impersonal, difficult qualities to quantify, but still real observations in my opinion.
My “plan” if you can call it that is to pair the 4400 with my S120.2 speakers and to then pair the 4500 with my somewhat tattered but more than presentable speaker-wise S-75’s.
As you noted the S120.2 speakers are short in the bass department, but they do have a commendable sound quality of their own, a bit more crisp than the S-75’s. Should this pairing be found less than desirable I can always switch these speakers.
Peter: I have stopped doing a/b/x trials on amplifiers as I really cannot tell the difference any more - partly due to my diminishing hearing!! Speakers are, on the other hand, easy!
I have stopped doing a/b/x trials on amplifiers as I really cannot tell the difference any more - partly due to my diminishing hearing!! Speakers are, on the other hand, easy!
I have done a A/B(C/D/E/F/G) trial on a bunch of B&O receivers and amplifiers at a B&O collector who lives near me; The rig consisted of a Beomater 3000 (slide-rule model), Beomaster 4000, Beomaster 4400, Beolab 5000 system, Dirigent 6xx, Master de luxe 6xx, Beomaster 1200 and Beomaster 5500, a Beocomparator box and a pair of Beovox S75 speakers.
I was amazed that I couldn't hear any noticeable difference between all those receivers/amplifiers at normal listening levels tuned onto the same FM station. It was a whole other matter when the amplifiers gets turned up; the valve receivers would quickly saturate at higher volumes as the only are capable of delivering at 6 watts clean and the capacitor-coupled amplifiers would in my opinion lose some high-end definition while the low frequencies would become a tiny bit distorted.
Speakers are on the other hand very colouring as Peter mentioned; it's just a whole other story! The most the most influential components of a stereo system is the tranducers, phono cartridges and speakers being the ones worth mentioning
My experience is quite different from Soren; however it is altogether possible that physical condition may be a contributing factor in my situation in that I can easily tell the difference with my eyes closed between the McIntosh 2250 [cold], 4500 [warm and full bodied], and the 2400 [dull/unremarkable].
Oddly enough the BeoCenter 9000 would be a more difficult call in that it seems to me to sound like a compromise between the 2400 and the 4500, leaning towards the 4500.
As to which component is the most important contributor to high quality sound, I will leave that to you gentleman as I am just an aficionado of B&O products.